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The first updates to Java 1.1.8 have been released (9/17/99):
We all heard it, Stardock is not allowed to release a new OS/2 client. I and
many other OS/2 users are very disapointed about this.
As the webmaster of OS/2 Netlabs I would like to share my statement about the
future of OS/2. In fact I want to make sure that you don't delete your OS/2 partition.
Read it and be prepaired for more!
It's online at http://www.netlabs.org/tobeornot.html
@ OS/2 Netlabs
The current OS/2 client situation has been slashdotted at:
I managed to port the Extended TAC Access Control server (in short xtacacsd)
from unix to OS/2.
xtacacsd is a unix daemon which controls access to CISCO Servers which are used
by ISP's for dialup access.
Because i can't test/debug it since i don't have a CISCO Server, i need someone
to test my port.
If you think you have some free time and a CISCO Server available, please email
me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
THE WARPED WORLD OF OS/2
Vol. 2, No. 10
17 September 1999
Welcome to the 32nd issue of the WARPED WORLD OF OS/2!
Notice: I've decided to continue weekly publication of
WARPED WORLD OF OS/2 on an indefinite basis. This is more
in keeping with the weekly update of my site and the
Notice: The "Forum" Link in the Navigation Bar has been repaired.
You can now go to the Forum by clicking on "Forum" at the
top of any page, or by going directly to
http://www.delphi.com/ab-os2/start/ as you have in the past.
NEW: TOPICAL ARTICLE INDEX:
Focus on OS/2 now contains a list of selected previous articles listed by topic
for easy reference. This page will be updated on a regular basis. See http://os2.about.com/library/weekly/topicmenu.htm.
SURF YOUR HARD DISK WITH DFSEE
Definitely for the power user, DFSee is one of the most versatile, powerful disk maintenance tools available.
WARP EXPO WEST: LIVE VIDEO FEED
Watch Warp Expo West on your Netscape browser this weekend!
WARP EXPO WEST: BACKGROUND
A look at the common background and present relationship between Warpstock and Warp Expo West. Source: Peter Skye.
WINDOWS 2000 A MONEY-LOSING FOR BUSINESS USERS
Business users will never recover the cost of migrating to Windows 2000. Source: Bob St. John, President of Serenity Systems.
VOICE EDITORIAL: MYTHS VERSUS REALITY
Refreshing, highly personal, viewpoint on IBM's OS/2 marketting strategy and OS/2's success in spite of it. By: Phil Butler
OS/2 AS AN UPGRADE STRATEGY
Effective presentation of reasons for choosing OS/2 instead of Windows. By Antonino Iannella.
Remember this is only a tiny fraction of the total material available on the
The Links and News is located at:
The total material can be found at http://os2.about.com
In 1998, Stardock took the position that if IBM had no current or projected plans
for a new fat OS/2 client, that it was in the interests of OS/2 users and the computing
community in general that a third-party should work with IBM to license OS/2 technology
on an OEM basis and make a new client available.
To that end, late last year, Stardock prepared a business plan and opened negotiations
with IBM. The wheels of bureacracy grind slowly, but eventually it was up to "IBM"
(executive level) to make the ultimate call on proceeding.
For the past 6 months, Stardock and IBM have been working closely together in
hammering out the details of an OS/2 client. Everything from potential names down
to which minute components would or would not be included. These meetings included
multiple in person meetings with IBM staff and executives here at Stardock's office
complex in Livonia Michigan.
With an agreement in principle in place, the last major hurdle was this week
in which the IBMers in favor of our proposal (mostly in Austin) presented their
case to IBM as a whole.
The call has been made -- there will be no new client from Stardock and IBM has
indicated that they have no plans for an OS/2 based client of their own.
Though IBM indicated Stardock had the strongest proposal, they have decided that
it is currently not in IBM's or their customer's interests to license any current
OS/2 technology on an OEM-basis.
There was never any discord between IBM and Stardock over financials, technical
viability, target market, or the like. IBM has simply finally made the decision
that a new OS/2 client would be in conflict with their strategic directions.
Stardock would like to extend a special thanks to all the IBMers (and in particular
Ken Christopher and Timothy Sipples) who went above and beyond the call in working
with us and going to bat inside IBM. Remember when you meet folks like them, who
are and have been intimately involved with OS/2, that their hands may be just as
tied as yours when the IBM Corporation as a whole sets policy.
Everything that could be done was done.
This is to inform you that MIDI Station Sequencer (MSS) Beta 6 is now available
from my website for download. Some of the new features available are:
The product is pretty much feature complete for this version. I strongly encourage
you to try this version out as soon as possible and give me some feedback on it.
Look for the GA version very soon. Also if you're interested in purchasing the sequencer
I would recommend that you do so now because there may be a price increase when
the product goes gold.
IMPORTANT!! IMPORTANT!! IMPORTANT!! IMPORTANT!! IMPORTANT!! IMPORTANT!!
There is something that you can do to drastically improve your playback performance.
Change the timer sensitivity to 1ms. Originally the default was 5ms but this has
turned out not to be optimal for playback. Look in the settings notebook on the
"Advanced" tab and you'll see the option to change the timer sensitivity.
You'll find that the performance improves considerably.
I look forward to hearing from you soon.
The website is:
The OS/2 port of MAME (Multiple Arcade Machine Emulator) has been upgraded to
version .36 beta 4. The OS/2 port is now in sync with the DOS and Windoze versions.
MAME runs over 1600 classic and some not so classic arcade games of the 70's,
80's, and 90's from the comfort of your OS/2 desktop.
For more information and to download the latest version, visit http://emuos2.davesvgc.com.
There is a Pentium optimized as well as a 486 optimized version available.
After a year of thorough beta-testing, Theta Band Software is proud to announce
the final release of the Multimedia Pack for OS/2, a collection of utilities to
enhance OS/2 multimedia.
MMPack contains the following programs :
This is a utility that checks your MMPM/2 installation (i.e. MMPM2.INI) for errors or suspicious settings. If it finds any, it will tell you what they are, so that you can fix them.
This is a replacement for IBM's MPU-401 driver, which is used to MIDI support for a number of sound cards, including sound cards that use the Crystal Semiconductor drivers. Enhancements over IBM's driver include :
This is a plug-in for Netscape Navigator and Communicator for OS/2. The function
of the DSMI plug-in is to play music module files embedded on web pages. Module
files are 32 channel digital music and are of tremendously high quality. This new
version 2.0 of the DSMI Netscape plug-in supports compressed zip module files.
More information about MMPack is available on our web site at:
We will also demonstrate MMPack at Warp Expo West in Orange, California on September
Personal Edition of Visualizer for OS/2
ASTRAC has developed a new Visualizer product for personal use based on the recently
announced Visualizer Version 5 for OS/2.
It has some restrictions on the data it can access, but is otherwise a fully-functional
edition of Visualizer for OS/2.
As it is marketed and intended for personal use, access to external data, such
as Lotus Notes, AS/400, and mainframe MVS and VM products is disabled.
Visualizer VPE/2 is intended to be used with local DB2/2 data or with native
format Visualizer tables.
* Price 97 US Dollars from www.bmtmicro.com - pay by credit card
* Books and extras FREE from ASTRAC web site
* Available from 18 September 1999 (Hurricane Floyd permitting)
* All Visualizer components included in the price, namely: Query, Charts, Statistics,
Plans,Procedures, and Development,
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* First 10 copies sold at Warp Expo West *
* get the product on CD *
* at the special price of 50 Dollars *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
see - www.astrac.com for info on the Visualizer
Below is the response that I received from NovaStor about possible CD-RW support
"The current versions of the NovaDisk CD/DVD software will not support the
OS/2 Warp platform. We are currently working to add support for this operating system
with the next revision of the software. This is due to be available by the end of
October 1999. The supported operating systems are Windows 95 and Windows 98."
Please visit our Internet site and subscribe to our newsletter, NovaNews, to
receive the latest news and information about NovaStor Corporation in your email.
NovaStor Technical Support
"One mission - protecting your data!"
80-B W Cochran St, Simi Valley, CA 93065
(805) 579-6700 ext. 260
Fax: (805) 579-6710
Spitfire Software is happy to announce that we have signed a new contract with
Checkfree Corporation assuring continued support of InCharge users for the CheckFree
Electronic Bill Payment System. This support will continue through May 31, 2001.
The support period will be extended if sufficient new users sign up for CheckFree
support by December 31, 2000. Therefore, Spitfire Software is making the following
1. Any existing InCharge user not currently using CheckFree will get one free
six month electronic support subscription upon providing proof that they have signed
up for the CheckFree service.
2. We will pay a $20 commission to an existing InCharge user for every new user
ordering InCharge directly from us and subscribing to the CheckFree service who
was sold on InCharge and CheckFree by the existing user. In order for the exiting
user to collect the commission, the new user must reference the existing user at
the time they place the order with Spitfire Software and must provide proof that
they have subscribed to the CheckFree service.
The CheckFree service enables one to pay their bills directly from InCharge by
posting a transaction to InCharge and sending it from within InCharge to Checkfree
via modem. You have complete control over when the bill is paid and the amount of
the payment is not deducted from your checking account until the payment date you
have specified. You can also schedule for automatic payment recurring payments of
a fixed amount (e.g. for a mortgage) such that once entered you need not enter them
again and InCharge will track the payments so that you always know when the next
one is coming up.
I personally use CheckFree and have been very happy. When a new bill comes in
I immediately post the payment to my checking account and send it to CheckFree for
payment when due. In this way I never forget to make a payment. Also, for the number
of bills I have to pay, the cost of CheckFree is less than I would spend just for
stamps if I were to print a check and mail it.
A CheckFree enrollment form is available for downloading from our web site. We
will also fax you one if you prefer that.
As of now there are only three financial systems supporting CheckFree electronic
bill payment. InCharge, Quicken, and MS Money. Only InCharge supports it under both
OS/2 and Win95/98/NT. We are looking at providing addition financial services via
CheckFree but this again is dependent on reaching a goal of 1000 new CheckFree users
by December 31, 2000. We need all of our users support in order to continue to offer
a viable alternative to Quicken and MS Money!
Bruce W. Landeck, Spitfire Software
Business Money Favors OS/2, Heads For Warp Expo West
A large number of businessmen, entrepreneurs and members of the financial community
will attend Warp Expo West on Saturday.
"They like the return on investment that OS/2 gives them," says Carla
Hanzlik, Editor of the monthly publication OS/2 For You. "They like the low
cost of ownership, the low maintenance, the ability to run on older hardware, the
robust networking, the Y2K readiness. They look at other solutions, they compare
them point-by-point, and they choose OS/2."
The most popular sessions among the business community are the following, according
"IBM: The New Strategy To Control The Worldwide Desktop" discussion
roundtable with Peter Coffee of PC Week, Esther Schindler of Sm@rt Reseller, and
Alan Zeichick of Camden Associates. "This open debate will give insight to
the direction that IBM will take in the future," says Hanzlik, "and will
show how IBM is becoming extremely aggressive once again."
"Warp Server for e-Business and WorkSpace On-Demand" by Steven King,
Senior Manager of IBM's Network Computing Software Division. "The various servers
required by business are covered in this session," says Hanzlik, "as well
as the considerations for decision planning."
"Web Server Performance and Scalability" by Robert Chapman of the Institute
Of Advanced Development Strategies. Hanzlik has noticed much interest in this seminar,
"because managers and business owners need to know up front what the problems
are that their technical staff will face."
"Warpicity: An Overview and Update" by Lynn Maxson. "The expense
of developing software is huge," points out Hanzlik, "and this proposal
could greatly change the model of creating unique applications."
"Services Offerings for the OS/2 Platforms" by Steven King of IBM.
"This is a fundamental checklist of the areas that must be included in a business
plan," notes Hanzlik, "and covers both the range of projects and the reasons
they are important to a business decision-maker."
"WorkSpace On-Demand, Remote Client Connection" by Dennis Sposato of
IBM's Network Computing Software Division. "A very powerful technology which
incorporates both legacy and new hardware into a fully-functioning business network,"
"Warped Jeopardy!" hosted by Sundial Systems. "We've found this
to be an extremely popular selection with business people, which matches the interest
we've seen in all other groups," says Hanzlik.
Hanzlik has been in the computer industry for 15 years, and Editor of OS/2 For
You for six. She notes that there is prime interest in seeing specific exhibitors
"IBM will be showing OS/2 Warp Server For e-Business and WorkSpace On-Demand,
and Serenity Systems will show their WiseManager product," says Hanzlik. "These
are very cost-effective solutions for any business environment."
"Phoenix Software and Sundial Systems have a number of applications for
business users," continues Hanzlik, "including very sophisticated database
and spreadsheet software which is customizable for specific business projects."
"We've also had many inquiries about OS/2 preinstallers, and Demand Systems
is one of our exhibitors who will build pre-loaded OS/2 machines that can simply
be set on a desktop and turned on. In a business environment this is certainly less
expensive than spending valuable time fiddling with the install software, the drivers
and the configuration."
"Business telephone needs are covered by Active Voice and Auto VoiceSystems,"
notes Hanzlik. "Auto-attendant, voice mail, fax, all these services are represented
"And we also have the Institute Of Advanced Development Strategies, who
will cover project scheduling technology and mainframe utilization."
Cost-effective business solutions are covered at Warp Expo West!
The IBM OS/2 Warp Update Summary has moved to a new location and has a domain
name now as well.
Please change your bookmark to:
Die IBM Warp Update-=DCbersicht ist umgezogen und hat jetzt auch einen Domainnamen.
Bitte Bookmark auf die folgende URL =E4ndern:
Earlier today WarpCast pointed to a Press Release Serenity Systems, an OS/2 ISV,
from September 1 on PR Newswire, advising businesses to get off Windows.
Linux Today (http://www.linuxtoday.com)
has picked up a follow up PRN from Serenity Systems which outlines why Windows2000
is a money losing proposition for businesses, with supporting information from Gartner
Group. This PR recommends IT strategies develop a PLAN B .. exploring options, including
OS/2, Linux, Java, Windows, and DOS.
This is important and timely information for businesses addressing W2K migration
expenses. OS/2 is not just a better way, but its value is increasing. The ROI is
apparent on OS/2, non-existent with Windows 2000, as stated in the release material.
Complete release will appear on Serenity Systems site, http://www.serenity-systems.com
One hundred OS/2 vendors, products and specialists are now a part of Warp Expo
"Guests will see a lot of OS/2 products," says Chairman Rollin White.
"We topped 100 last week and we're still adding new ones."
There's something new this year. A network of machines will constantly make the
software available for guests to try. Two servers and a number of clients will give
every guest a chance to try all the software they want, see how it works, how it
feels, and what it can do. Every Vendor100 program will be available on every machine.
There will even be online ordering.
"Vendor100 is clearly a better way to demonstrate software," continues
White. "Instead of wandering the show aisles and searching for the software
you need, it's all on one machine in front of you. You can try each application,
switch back and forth between them to compare features, even check the vendor web
sites to see what extra information is online."
The network itself runs OS/2 WiseManager, from Serenity Systems. "You can
buy that too," smiles Kim Cheung, Executive Director for Serenity. Cheung personally
supervised the installation of all software. WiseManager allows software to reside
on one server and be used anywhere on the network, with individual profiles for
each user. The user machines don't even need hard drives; they can boot directly
from the network and all files are kept on the server.
For the software you need and the systems that run it, come to Warp Expo West!
We have all seen Faxworks, many of us use it, many of us have also wondered why
we should upgrade to the professional version.
Keller Group Inc. will have PMFax at Warpstock '99 to answer that question. PMFax
builds on the solid performance of the lite version that is shipped with the OS/2
bonuspak by adding:
See the full list at http://www.kellergroup.com
Once you see the professional package in action, you will wonder how you ever
got by with out this full Fax/Data/Voice call control system.
Visit Warpstock '99 (http://www.warpstock.org)
for a very special deal on the best Fax package available.
WiseManager Release 1.2 now generally available.
Serenity Systems will be demontrating the new release of the Managed Clients(r)
and WiseManager(r) software at Warp Expo on Saturday, September 18. Includes expanded
application support and multi-media support, previously unavailable on OS/2 RIPL
clients ... now supported with WiseClients.
WiseManager automatically creates network clients, installing OS/2 and configuring
the systems, including SVGA support. At Warp Expo West the new software will build
six clients with differing hardware requiremenst as part of the Vendor 100 Progarm,
executing a complete network install of the OS and 100 applications ... in minutes
... redefining the expression, "one button install".
The supported clients will be able to use SoundBlaster, multimedia system sound,
MIDI and VoiceType. Capabilities never before available in this environment. These
machines will be available for use by hundreds of visitors to the exhibit area.
The demonstration will show how a failing workstation can be removed, a new workstation
connected and immediately back "online" with the complete user desktop
intact, applications and OS. This is an important feature for support of desktop
business users, reducing down time to the period it takes to plug in another supported
WiseManager is useful to OS/2 accounts and to consultants interested in providing
management of desktop computers as a fee service. A marketing white paper is available
to qualified consultants explaining how to sell the Managed Client as a fee service,
minimizing the difficulty normally associated with "selling OS/2". An
HTML version of the paper may be requested from me by email (BStJohn@Serenity-Systems.com),
or by requesting a Channel Partner log on to the Serenity Systems web site, http://www.serenity-systems.com.
.. finally! ;-)
The new release of Minta is available now! Minta is a very powerful MP3 tagging,
listing and information PM-utility for OS/2 (says the author ;-)
v2.41's new features:
Other features of Minta include:
Minta is mailware.
For more info and download, visit either the homepage
or get it from Hobbes
Minta 2.41 is of course also available on the "Team Trier Collection"
CDROM for OS/2 (see http://www.teamos2.ipcon.de/cdrom.htm
for more info).
Going to be at Warp Expo West in Orange and/or Warpstock '99 in Atlanta?
Be sure to have your "questions" ready when Sundial Systems hosts Warped
Jeopardy! -- an exciting live game show of "answers" with an OS/2 theme.
Featuring both "celebrity" players and audience participation, this
"warped" version of the ever popular TV show will be an event not to be
Watch for updates to the Warp Expo West (www.scoug.com/warpexpowest)
and Warpstock '99 (www.warpstock.org) event
schedules for details on exact locations and times.
Seating my be limited so be sure to pick up your admission tickets early at the
Sundial Systems exhibit at either show!
PR Newswire has an article on Serenity Systems.
Since today there is the RoboticsMessenger/2 (Freeware for controlling the USRobotics
Message Modems) available at ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/incoming/
sooner or later moved to ftp://hobbes.nmsu.edu/pub/os2/apps/comm/
and also at http://www.buntspecht.de/romes/
No new functions but all 'old ones' now working perfect, also a 'big' romes.inf
with tips and more
Have fun and enjoy the 'phonetools-free' (means windows free) usage of the modem
with native OS/2 Tools
Today I received the following questionaire of VMware. It looks like the OS/2
will be there in the future :
You are receiving this e-mail questionaire because you expressed an interest
in VMware support for OS/2.
We are currently working on supporting OS/2 inside a virtual machine and have
some decisions to make. Your feedback would be appreciated. There are many motivations
for supporting OS/2 inside a virtual machine instead of native. These include improved
device driver support, system administration benefits, and increased security (e.g.,
from viruses) and privacy, without loss of functionality, network connectivity or
1. Would you find running the OS/2 operating system inside a virtual machine
If you need OS/2 running native, why is this? While VMware is committed to x86
virtualization, with no partiality to the native operating system or the one running
inside the virtual machine, we are not planning to support OS/2 as a native operating
system at this time.
If you have no interest in running OS/2 inside a virtual machine, feel free to
2. If you were to run OS/2 inside a virtual machine, which native operating system
would you expect to run?
b. Windows NT, or
c. Windows 2000
3. What version of OS/2 Warp do you plan to run? Would it be acceptable if we
required Version 4.0 with fix pack 5 or later?
4. In a few sentences please describe how you
a. Install OS/2 on new hardware. Is the installation done from a central server
via intranet, ethernet, modem or other mechanism?
b. Upgrade an existing OS/2 installation.
c. Manage your data. Is it kept on centralized file servers or on individual client machines?
5. Which of the following VMware usage scenarios do you envision adopting? We
are still investigating which scenarios are feasible with OS/2, but your feedback
will influence us.
a. Running OS/2 on a virtual disk.
b. Running OS/2 installed on a raw disk. Would you boot this installation native? See http://www.vmware.com/support/rawdevices.html for what is possible today with Windows and Linux.
Title: Lotus halts eSuite development
Author: Nancy Weil, IDG News Service\Boston Bureau
Date: September 9, 1999
*** Text of Article Follows ***
BOSTON (09/09/99) - Rumors of the death of Lotus Development Corp.'s eSuite desktop
software line proved true today as the company confirmed it has pulled the plug
on marketing and development.
The Java-based set of business productivity applets that comprise the eSuite
line "has not done as well in the market as the company had hoped," said
Paul LaBelle, a Lotus spokesman. About 50 Lotus business partners globally have
developed applications on or with eSuite "and a small handful of end-users
are using it," but otherwise the line has languished.
The line, released with a splash in late 1997, was designed for the network computing
model, which has users of desktop PCs or network computers accessing servers to
download applets for desktop machines, as needed. The idea is that users won't need
more expensive computers loaded with software, but will instead need only an Internet
browser for use on machines that cost as little as a few hundred dollars. Dramatic
drops in the prices of PCs seem to have derailed the market for network computing,
which many users resisted because they want to have software on their desktops.
LaBelle said he wouldn't comment on why eSuite didn't sell as well as Lotus had
hoped. While marketing and development for the line will end, Lotus will release
eSuite Workplace 2.0 by the end of next month and will continue to support the product
line for existing customers until January 2001, LaBelle said. Workplace offers access
to e-mail, Web browsing, file management and business productivity applets, including
a word processor, calendar, address book and spread sheet.
Technology used in eSuite will be integrated into other Lotus software in the
company's three key areas -- collaborative computing, distributed learning and knowledge
management, LaBelle said. Which technology will be integrated and into what lines
has yet to be decided.
About 200 Lotus employees worldwide work on developing and marketing eSuite and
50 of them will stay with the line to offer continued support and service, with
150 being moved to other areas in Lotus and its parent, IBM Corp.
Lotus, in Cambridge, Massachusetts, can be reached at +1-617-577-8500 or at http://www.lotus.com.
Greetings everyone... :)
I have just finished ThermoProtect V1.29, and the new features of this version
is as follows. :)
*Now ThermoProtect allows you to add temperature modifier to any or all of the
thermal probes. Some user requested this because BIOS in motherboards like Asus
P5A add a few degrees to the actual reading to "compensate" for the distance
between the thermal probe and CPU. Only zero or positive values are accepted, negtive
value are automatically changed to zero instead. Negtive value are rejected because
it have the potenical of becoming a tool for people to play jokes on another for
them to think the temperature of the CPU is remarkably low, while the CPU is actually
overheating. So negtive value are substitued by zero automatically.
*Now EnvSetup.EXE allows temperature of in both Celsius and Fahrenheit, the Fahrenheit
input are automatically converted to Celsius due to the fact that Celsius standard
is what Winbond/National Semiconductor designed their chip to output. Not to mention
this author is incapable of thinking in terms of Fahrenheit. :)
The file is available NOW at:
And please visit:
For cooling, motherboard, system recovery card and MORE... :) No need to buy
anything, just come and have a look is all we ask. :)
Special $75 ticket price for Warpstock '99 extended to October 15.
The Warpstock Board of Directors and the Warpstock '99 Atlanta Committee, http://www.warpstock.org, are pleased to announce
that the special ticket price of $75 has been extended until October 15, the day
before Warpstock. Previously, this special rate was available only until August
15. Now, anyone who registers in advance for Warpstock can save $20. The full ticket
price for those registering at the door remains at $95, which is still a great value!
The extended discount is possible because of generous sponsorship from both IBM
and VOICE. All of the Warpstock staff and volunteers thank both of these organizations
for their incredible support.
Warpstock '99 is the premier OS/2 event of the year. It will be held in Atlanta,
GA, on October 16 and 17. Anyone and everyone who is interested in IBM's award-winning
operating system should attend. This event is not just for the individual or small-office
user - IBM and other vendors will be demonstrating their products for large corporate
accounts, and there will be presentations geared towards all types of OS/2 users.
More information about Warpstock '99 can be found at the official Warpstock web
site, http://www.warpstock.org. IBM's web
site is http://www.ibm.com, and VOICE's web site
At the request of the 32bits Online team, I wrote a commentary on why OS/2 is
the lead platform for Serenity Systems Managed Client(r) products. Because of the
focus of this site, the commentary is focused on OS/2 and Linux. And the commentary
is as expansive as I could make it, given the context.
The article is at http://www.32bitsonline.com/
and I welcome posts to the forum, or off line email, which contribute to this discussion.