VOICE - General Meeting for 2004-01-10

12:15:51 <WalterOS2> This meeting of VOICE is now in session.
<wdl> Vacation: Yup. See http://pws.prserv.net/wdl/antarctica.html I think that's it.
<WalterOS2> Bill: I'm not able to connect.
<MADeCSSMP> works here
<MADeCSSMP> What no pics of you doing the tango Bill?
<crimso> LOL. Nice photos!
<wdl> Got *1oos* of pictures - only a few on the web. I do tango, though...
<wdl> Oop: "1oos" = "100s"
<WalterOS2> Well I've tried both Mozilla and Netscape. No Joy.
<WalterOS2> Hello Vaughn
<WarpedOS2> Firebird works good here, Hi Walter
<WalterOS2> Oh well.
<WarpedOS2> So does Thunderbird .4
<WalterOS2> I thought Thunderbird was an email program.
<WarpedOS2> it is...and it works pretty good comparing it to PMMAIL
<MADeCSSMP> great pics Bill
<wdl> I just connected to http://pws.prserv.net/wdl/antarctica.html -- it works fine.
<wdl> MADeCSSMP: Thank you.
<WalterOS2> I just tried from my other desktop. That didn't work either.
<WalterOS2> Hmmm.
<MADeCSSMP> Maybe a cache or DNS problem.
<WalterOS2> Who knows.
<WalterOS2> I'll worry about it later.
<WalterOS2> Let's get started on the Agenda.
<wdl> WalterOS2: I think the 'net is having problems. I tried dozens of IRC connections trying to get here. All but this gave me "Host not found", or similar.
<crimso> irc.be.webbnet.info works fine.
<WalterOS2> There isn't any "Old Business", so moving to "New Business".
<WalterOS2> Item B1: Treasurer's Report.
<WalterOS2> I emailed Peter three days ago, but got no response. :-(

<crimso> If Peter can't or does not want to continue, he'd better tell the board right away. It's no shame. But the treasurer's business has to be done.
<WalterOS2> Agreed.
<WalterOS2> OK, I'll put it on the agenda for the next meeting, and think about it in the meantime.
<WalterOS2> I would appreciate you guys thinking about it to.
<WalterOS2> to=too.
<MADeCSSMP> Do you know what bank the account is in?
<WalterOS2> I **think** it's in the bank of Nova Scotia.
<WalterOS2> I think Peter's mentioned it once or twice. If I search back in the logs, I should be able to find it.
<MADeCSSMP> If you can't get Peter to add Bill then you are going to have to contact the bank to see what if anything can be done.
<WarpedOS2> I guess I should know...I have recieved a couple from Norman Sales
<WalterOS2> Mark: As President of Warpstock, could you find the cheques VOICE used in the pass to make contributions to WS?
<WalterOS2> The bank would be on any of those.
<WalterOS2> Vaughn: That would work as well.
<MADeCSSMP> WarpedOS2: Walter those would have been returned to Peter after having been cashed.
<WalterOS2> Right. Walter bangs the side of head. :-)
<WarpedOS2> yes..so not sure...
<WarpedOS2> I thought it was bank of BC :-O
<MADeCSSMP> Though a check paid to VOICE should have the bank and account number it was deposited into.
<MADeCSSMP> Anyone have a recent cancelled check to VOICE?
<WarpedOS2> Yes... Mark....I had one but that is over a year ago... hmmmm
<WalterOS2> How long do you keep your cheques?
<WarpedOS2> I file them, but last year has been archived...
<WalterOS2> Hope "Archived" doesn't mean file 13. "-)
<WalterOS2> I don't think I've ever written a cheque to VOICE. The only time I pay anything is for membership, and I do that online.
<WarpedOS2> online...hmmm never done that..
<WalterOS2> Well I've already added the subject to the agenda for the next meeting, and I'll do some digging before then.
<WalterOS2> Vaughn, if you could try to find one of those cheques, it would be a big help.
<WalterOS2> Anyone have any other comments?
<WalterOS2> About the treasurer issue, I mean.
<WalterOS2> OK, next item: VOICE2 Conversion Report.
<WalterOS2> For this, I'll turn the floor over to Ken.
<KenKrchnr> I just put voice2 back online yesterday, and mail this morning.
<KenKrchnr> The mail versions are as on voice1 right now.
<KenKrchnr> It will take a bit before we caqn say all is working as it should.
<WalterOS2> Was there a problem with mail?
<KenKrchnr> Mail had not been put back to voice2 since I went on vacation.
<KenKrchnr> When I got back I started testing on another server, but not voice stuff.
<WalterOS2> I thought your email said you had put in on VOICE2.
<crimso> There seems to be a problem with the FTP server.
<KenKrchnr> I put it on this morning.
<WalterOS2> I've been having problems with ftp as well.
<KenKrchnr> What kind of ftp problem?
<crimso> FTP connections often just kind of stall.
<crimso> My client then states that there aren't any files in a directory.
<KenKrchnr> When did that happen?
<WalterOS2> With "passive" turned on the most I can upload is one file. :-(
<crimso> After refreshing the directory content several times, it finally came back.
<WalterOS2> I often need to upload several files (and directories) at once.
<crimso> KenKrchnr: E.g. on January 5th when I tried to upload the Newsletter.
<WalterOS2> VOICE1 handles that just fine without passive on.
<KenKrchnr> OK, the ftp problem may be gone now that voice2 is back.
<WarpedOS2> what ftp program you using for testing?
<WalterOS2> Christian: Your problem sounds the same as mine.
<crimso> WalterOS2: yes, exactly.
<WarpedOS2> I find that emtftp has issues with Peter's ftp program
<KenKrchnr> From 12/31 to 1/9 voice2 was running on a backup server.
<WarpedOS2> I use JFTP and have NO issues now...
<crimso> KenKrchnr: it also happened during December when I tried to upload/download files for the Newsletter translation.
<eCSNL> hello
<eCSNL> Ooops sorry about that....
<crimso> I'm using the F file manager.
<WarpedOS2> hmmm never hear of that one crimso
<crimso> http://filemanager.free.fr, really great stuff
<eCSNL> Sorry I'm late was watching a movie... Had an extremely busy week was just sitting down, lost track of time :-)
<KenKrchnr> One of the things I did while voice2 was offline was to take it out from behind our firewall and put its own fw software in. This should help the ftp problems.
<WalterOS2> Ken: Yesterday, I needed upload my article and images to my www.warpdoctor.org/walter, and do a little housekeeping for the new year. I couldn't a think using voice2 with passive on. Without passive, it wouldn't make a connection. So I did my work on VOICE1 without passive on and everything worked great.
<eCSNL> what topic on the agenda are we now ?
<WalterOS2> think=do a thing.
<crimso> eCSNL: migration to VOICE2
<WalterOS2> VOICE2==B2.
<eCSNL> Oke...
<eCSNL> There is no treasurer report I'm afraid ?
<crimso> Nope.
<WalterOS2> Roderick: Thanks for popping in. I know you're busy.
<eCSNL> Ahaa KenKrchnr
<KenKrchnr> Walter, you did u/l to voice2. Was that later?
<eCSNL> what kind of troubles are you having with FTP ?
<WalterOS2> No: that was what I did first.
<WalterOS2> I may have uploaded a single document to voice2 for something else, but I'm not sure.
<wdl> Hmmm... Am I still here?
<crimso> KenKrchnr: I always used os2voice.org as address, no IP.
<WalterOS2> wdl: I can see you. :-)
<WalterOS2> Ken: So do I, now.
<wdl> OK. System burped, and the dialer quit shwing incoming bytes.
<KenKrchnr> Christian, could you try your ftp now as a test?
<WalterOS2> Roderick: How long will you be able to stay?
<eCSNL> Ohoo I can stay for another 2 hours...
<WalterOS2> OK. :-)
<crimso> KenKrchnr: sure, just wait a few minutes.
<WalterOS2> While Christian and Ken are working on that, let's go back to the Treasurer issue, now that Roderick is here.
<WarpedOS2> Wouldn't it be easier if someone was from Canada to be co treasurer?
<WarpedOS2> seeing that the account is in Canada
<WalterOS2> WarpedOS2: Are you volunteering. :-)
<WarpedOS2> Well...I guess I am
<MADeCSSMP> Guess Christian's attempt at FTP didn't go all that well.
<crimso> KenKrchnr: Copying files worked, but changing directories repeatedly causes the problem. Sometimes I can't even get to e\home\voice\public_html\files, for instance.
<crimso> OK, refreshing several times did the trick.
<KenKrchnr> You could copy multiple files?
<crimso> Yes.
<WarpedOS2> Walter..you still here?
<KenKrchnr> Was that better than last time?
<crimso> Deleting a directory that has a number of files in it fails most of the time.
<crimso> KenKrchnr: Yes.
<WalterOS2> Vaughn: here
<WalterOS2> Vaughn: what would you like?
<KenKrchnr> OK. Another thing I see is there is a different version of FTP server on voice1, maybe we'll try that.
<WalterOS2> Hello Chrissy/Jeremy
<Chrissy> hey
<WalterOS2> Ken: Is the VOICE1 newer or older?
<Rat-Salad> hey! just got done with practice
<WalterOS2> Ken: VOICE1 server
<WarpedOS2> Walter sure I can volunteer for assitant treasurer or something like that
<WalterOS2> Hello Jeremy
<crimso> KenKrchnr: Could you report the problem to Peter Moylan?
<WalterOS2> Vaughn: OK, thanks! I'll get back you.
<KenKrchnr> Voice1 = 1.15 : voice2 = 1.2
<WalterOS2> Looks like Peter broke something. :-)
<KenKrchnr> Could be, it's worth a try.
<WalterOS2> Ken: In the meantime, try "back-version"ing the ftp server on voice2, and we'll see what happens.
<KenKrchnr> I'll try that later today or tomorrow.
<WalterOS2> thx
<crimso> I'm currently doing a stress test. Copying files seems to work fine.
<WalterOS2> Send me an email when it's done, and I'll try uploading again.
<WalterOS2> Christian should also test it as well, so maybe you could bounce the email to him as well.
<crimso> OK, deleting a directory worked, too. There definitely has been some kind of improvement.
<crimso> directory = directory tree
<WalterOS2> Christian: which system were you testing on?
<WarpedOS2> Walter...what about enhancing Voice membership to give it some worth?
<WarpedOS2> for some a reason to renew... worth=Value
<WalterOS2> What did you have in mind?
<WalterOS2> Let's move on to item B3.
<WarpedOS2> Well...at the moment we have Norman Virus Control at a reduced price, and some free software from a developer or two...is that something more we can do?
<WalterOS2> Jeremy has now resigned as Liaison Officer. :-(
<WalterOS2> Jeremy: Do you still want to do that?
<WarpedOS2> yes...Walter I seen that...talked to him too...
<WalterOS2> I've asked Roderick to take on that role, at least temporarily.
<WalterOS2> He's still thinking about it. <g>
<eCSNL> I have been thinking about it
<eCSNL> as well
<eCSNL> and I accept the position
<WalterOS2> Thanks, eCSNL.
<eCSNL> I think I can get some interesting people for an IRC meeting...
<WalterOS2> Super!!
<eCSNL> Especialy some developers that are working on some hot stuff
<WalterOS2> We've found in the past that the "SpeakUps" as we call them, really make a big improvement in interest in VOICE.
<WalterOS2> Please keep me/us informed.
<WalterOS2> Any comments on that before we move on?
<WalterOS2> OK, let's move on to B4: Christian (aka crimso) is now officially Editor-in-Chief of the Newsletter.
<WalterOS2> So far he's doing a great job!
<WalterOS2> B4a. Spanish Translation
<WalterOS2> Christian, have any more people shown an interest in this?
<WalterOS2> Boy! That was quick.
<WalterOS2> Item B5: By-law change recommentation
<WalterOS2> I would like to recommend a change in our by-laws so that the "chief honcho" of any of the VOICE operations be an ex-officio member of the Board of Directors.
<WalterOS2> At present that would include Co-ordinator of WarpDoctor, Editor-in-Chief of the Newsletter, and possibly the President of Warpstock.
<WalterOS2> I know the board has to deal this before the membership votes on it,
<WalterOS2> but I would still like to get everyone's opinion.
<WalterOS2> The reason for my recommendation is to improve communication between the VOICE operations/projects.
<Rat-Salad> Warpstock, has nothing to do with VOICE
<wdl> Increasing the size of a governing board, in a relatively small group, increases the risk of "legislative" grid-lock. IMHO.
<WalterOS2> Jeremy: That was why I said "possibly"
<WalterOS2> :-)
<Rat-Salad> hee
<crimso> Sorry guys, my connection broke and I couldn't re-connect.
<crimso> Did anything important happen?
<WalterOS2> I'll restate my recommendation for Christian's benefit.
<crimso> Thanks.
<WalterOS2> Item B5: By-law change recommentation
<WalterOS2> <WalterOS2> I would like to recommend a change in our by-laws so that the "chief honcho" of any of the VOICE
<WalterOS2> operations be an ex-officio member of the Board of Directors.
<WalterOS2> <WalterOS2> At present that would include Co-ordinator of WarpDoctor, Editor-in-Chief of the Newsletter, and
<WalterOS2> possibly the President of Warpstock.
<WalterOS2> <WalterOS2> I know the board has to deal this before the membership votes on it,
<WalterOS2> <WalterOS2> but I would still like to get everyone's opinion.
<WalterOS2> <Wal
<crimso> Well, since VOICE being a member-directed organization has always been emphasized, I don't know what our members are going to think of adding a non-elected person to the board.
<WalterOS2> Then, Jeremy said that Warpstock has nothing to do with VOICE.
<crimso> WalterOS2: I think that is indeed a different pair of shoes.
<WalterOS2> Sorry about that.
<WalterOS2> I gather it's not very popular. :-(
<WalterOS2> it's==my recommendation
<WalterOS2> Oh well, that's all right.
<crimso> I'm not sure if it would have the desired effect.
<WalterOS2> Why do you say that?
<crimso> But then we cannot be sure until we tried.
<Rat-Salad> I don't believe it's a good idea personally
<crimso> Well, IIRC you suggested it to improve communication between different VOICE parts.
<crimso> In my case it probably won't change a thing. The problem for me mainly is that I often don't have the time to join the IRC sessions.
<crimso> But I'm on the admin mailing list now.
<crimso> If things are also discussed there, that should be sufficient.
<Rat-Salad> how about merely requiring those positions to attend the meetings.. that's what this is about right? tight communications, etc?
<wdl> The treasurer is required, eh?
<KenKrchnr> Requiring = asking ;-)
<WalterOS2> I tried that before, except with the BOD members, and that went over like a lead balloon.
<WalterOS2> wdl: right
<crimso> Well, being able to have an important part in decision making might make attending the sessions more attractive to some.
<WalterOS2> I'm concerned that important issues discussed will be missed by VOICE members if there not here.
<wdl> Then one must make VOICE mored obviously relevant to "the community"??
<crimso> What about publishing the agenda in the announcement mails? Many people are just too lazy to click on the link and read the page.
<WalterOS2> But, Christian, you don't have a vote at Board meetings, and I wouldn't either except that I'm president of VOICE.
<WalterOS2> I think that's a poor way to run things, because the VNL and Warpdoctor are so important to VOICE.
<crimso> WalterOS2: Oh, then I misunderstood your proposal. So you mean that the potential ex-officio officers get a vote?
<Rat-Salad> that is a good point... the VNL is important... it's what VOICE is probably best known for
<crimso> don't get a vote
<WalterOS2> Christian: I was publishing the agenda, but we couldn't settle on a format that could be read by all email clients.
<WalterOS2> Christian: Yes.
<Rat-Salad> what's wrong with plain text?
<crimso> WalterOS2: So the only change would be that they get the right to attend board meetings.
<WalterOS2> The agenda now is in HTML format, and when converting it to plain text the formatting is lost.
<WalterOS2> The result is pretty awful to look at.
<WalterOS2> Christian: Basically yes.
<wdl> Compose in plain text, for email distribution. Then convert to HTML for posting on the web.
<crimso> Did you try to save the HTML as text with Mozilla? That works pretty good, usually.
<crimso> WalterOS2: Then I don't see any problem with your proposal. I would second it.
<WalterOS2> The by-laws are very strict in stating that certain important items have to go before the board.
<Rat-Salad> Save Page As... then change the type to text
<WalterOS2> wdl, Rat-Salad: The result is pretty awful, as I mentioned.
<Rat-Salad> I actually prefer copy and paste :)
<WalterOS2> RS: Doesn't work with HTML documents.
<Rat-Salad> ?
<WarpedOS2> copy, paste works for me
<crimso> WalterOS2: I just tried using Mozilla 1.6b. The output didn't look that bad.
<WalterOS2> Christian: I could give that a try, I supposed.
<WalterOS2> Except that I'm using v1.5.
<WalterOS2> I ran into too many problems with 1.6x.
<WalterOS2> Anyway, it's getting late.
<WalterOS2> We can continue this at the next meeting.
<WalterOS2> The rest of the items do really need to be discussed, because we've already looked at them.
<WalterOS2> :-)
<Rat-Salad> I hope I can be at next meeting
<WalterOS2> Does anyone have any comments or discussion.
<eCSNL> I saw
<eCSNL> the russian translation
<eCSNL> thats next ?
<crimso> Regarding what exactly?
<KenKrchnr> FTP Server is backleveled to 1.15 for testing :-)
<WalterOS2> Christian: Anything on the agenda.
<eCSNL> Other Business 1. Russian translation of the VNL.
<crimso> Well, I can report on the Spanish issue.
<WalterOS2> Christian: OK, please go ahead.
<crimso> OK, on December 4th a guy from Spain called Javier L. Oregarena E. contacted me.
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: We can't look at a Russian and Spanish translation at the same time.
<WalterOS2> Before you came, we found out that a Spanish translation may be in the works.
<WarpedOS2> Ken - I have 1.20 running without any problems that described..and using assorted ftp programs, even those from the makers of dream weaver
<crimso> He was interested in doing a translation to Spanish and asked me about it.
<WarpedOS2> the integrated ftp program in Dreamweaver works just fine
<WalterOS2> Let's let Christian give his report. :-)
<crimso> We exchanged a few e-mails and it turned out that he apparently thought that doing it was easier than it is.
<WalterOS2> hehe
<crimso> He said something about gathering about four persons.
<crimso> I told him that to keep the thing going, he would need at least double the number.
<crimso> Or the guys would burn out soon.
<crimso> I'm afraid I may have been a bit too pessimistic in my suggestions.
<crimso> I invited him to this chat a few days ago.
<WalterOS2> 8 people as a minimum does seem a little high.
<crimso> Basically, I haven't heard from him since December 10.
<WalterOS2> OK, well contact him again in the next couple of weeks, and see if he's still interested.
<crimso> WalterOS2: You always have to consider that not everyone is going to work on each issue, even if they wanted to. Murphy is always on the loose.
<WalterOS2> True. :-)
<wdl> Start with whoever you can get. Publish it. If burn-out is a problem, ask for more translators.
<wdl> If people read it, and want it, mopre will come.
<WalterOS2> I tend to agree with Bill.
<wdl> "Mopre" = "more"
<crimso> We've been working on the German issue with as few as three people sometimes. But that nearly resulted in the whole thing collapsing.
<crimso> wdl: Sadly, I don't think so.
<crimso> Some may volunteer, fewer actually do something, and even fewer will do so on a regular basis.
<wdl> Crimso: But it's the way to start. If it collapses, well...
<wdl> If one doesn't start, it *never* flies...
<crimso> wdl: I agree. If we don't try, it won't happen anway.
<WalterOS2> The problem is that the people who read it may not have the necessary bilingual languate skills and the time.
<wdl> But *some* may!! Ya gotta try.
<crimso> Co-ordinating three versions is going to be rough.
<wdl> Again, ya gotta try. Else VOICE becomes less and less relevant.
<WalterOS2> We should also remember that there are Spanish-speaking all over the world: Spain, Mexico, and most of South America.
<crimso> We may have to postpone the publishing date for each Spanish issue. Or set the deadline for each issue a good deal earlier.
<crimso> WalterOS2: That's the reason why I would really like to have a Spanish issue.
<wdl> Publishing language versions sequentually isn't a bad thing. If it has to be, well, it has to be.
<crimso> BTW, what about the Russian one? I haven't heard anything about it yet.
<wdl> "sequ..." + (the right way) ;-)
<WalterOS2> You weren't at the last meeting. :-)
<WalterOS2> It was an idea of mine, but no work has been done on it.
<crimso> Has anybody from over there expressed their interest?
<WalterOS2> I just know there's a heck of a lot of OS/2 work being done in Russia, and there are also bilingual people involved.
<WalterOS2> No. That's why I think we should try to kick-start the Spanish version first.
<WalterOS2> Because there has been a request for it.
<crimso> Same for other parts of Asia. We only get a glimpse of what's being done there. Especially Japan.
<WalterOS2> I don't even want to think of a Japanese (or Chinese) version.
<WalterOS2> Those languages scare to me to death.
<WalterOS2> :-)
<crimso> That would be complicated.
<wdl> Time for re-organization? Renewed focus??
<crimso> I mean doing a Japanese version. Not scaring you to death.
<crimso> :-)
<WalterOS2> :-)
<WalterOS2> Well, I think we should at least look into the Spanish one first.
<crimso> OK, I'll try to contact that guy again.
<WarpedOS2> If we broaden our audience...we will broaden our membership!
<WalterOS2> Let's send out email to all the OS/2 groups we can think of where Spanish is spoken.
<WalterOS2> Ask for bilingual people who would help out with Spanish version.
<WalterOS2> Christian: Thanks!
<WalterOS2> Well, I need to leave: my body is seizing up from being in this chair so long. :-)
<WalterOS2> Would someone like to move we adjourn, please?
<WalterOS2> As I always say, You are welcome to stay and discuss things informally after we adjourn.
<wdl> Move to adjourn.
<WalterOS2> Thanks.
<WalterOS2> All in favour of adjouning, please type Aye.
<WarpedOS2> Aye
<wdl> Aye.
<eCSNL> aye
<KenKrchnr> Aye
<crimso> Aye.
<WarpedOS2> See ya Walter...take care
<crimso> Arrr!
14:32:12 <WalterOS2> Motion is passed. Meeting adjourned.