VOICE - SpeakUp with Scott Garfinkle from 01/11/99
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:03:33 ]<mandie> VOICE would like to welcome Scott Garfinkle and thank him for being our guest tonight
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:03:45 ] * Longstaff applauds
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:03:58 ]<mandie> seg: would you like to give us a little bio and then we'll get into the nitty gritty questions
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:04:04 ]<seg> OK.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:04:26 ]<seg> I have been with OS/2 service a little over six years, all of them
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:04:31 ]<seg> in the kernel and related stuff area.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:04:52 ]<seg> Before that, I'd worked on Unix, DOS, etc., as well as Army stuff.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:05:05 ]<seg> Anyway, I'll try to help
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:05:21 ]<seg> answer any (more or less printable) questions about our service, etc.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:05:31 ]<Projects> with the Army stuff? :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:05:38 ]<seg> If I don't know an answer, I'll tell you. If I can't answer (unlikely)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:05:45 ]<madodel> Was that our Army or their Army?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:05:51 ]<seg> I'll say that, too. ok. -o-
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:06:02 ]<mandie> we'd like to remain unmoderated..so please try to wait your turn so that we don't have mass confusion
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:06:15 ]<mandie> not you seg..the attendees :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:06:27 ]<madodel> Yes mom
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:06:29 ]<seg> I'm always confused. ask away.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:06:34 ]<mandie> :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:07:12 ]<Abraxas> seg what determines when a piece of code, or driver, is ready to be distributed in a Fixpak
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:07:13 ]<madodel> Any idea when FP10 will be out? I saw a reference to it the other day.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:07:37 ]<seg> Abraxas: basically, if a problem is determined to be
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:07:40 ]<mandie> why aren't the mptn cumulative instead of having to apply individual fixes
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:07:54 ]<seg> of sufficient importance to be put into a fixpack, then the first
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:08:08 ]<seg> cut is the developer who is assigned to the "defect." The
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:08:24 ]<seg> developer decides when he (I will use he rather than he/she throughout)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:08:45 ]<seg> is confident that the fix works. Then, before it gets integrated
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:08:56 ]<seg> into the source code tree, at least one other developer who is
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:09:10 ]<seg> familiar with that area of the code is required to do a code review.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:09:25 ]<seg> Once the code is integrated and built, there are a number of tests
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:10:24 ]<Headache> when you mention kernel... does that mean you arent involved in driver fixes?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:10:31 ]<seg> that are done on every fixpack. In addition to these tests, a number of users both within and
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:11:16 ]<seg> outside of IBM are early testers. We try to incorporate a variety of different environemnts and so on. Depending on the quantity and type
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:11:58 ]<seg> of fixes, we also may elect to run more than the usual number of tests. Despite all this, as everybody knows, sometime we release fixes that break other stuff (I've done it a couple time in the last few months, myself).
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:12:13 ]<seg> Let me move for a second to other questions. We'll come back to this.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:12:22 ]<Abraxas> ok
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:12:24 ]<Longstaff> seg - i'd like your comment about upgrading warp 3 connect to run smartsuite, comm/2, va java and sustain a cablemodem connection
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:12:39 ]<seg> wait
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:13:19 ]<seg> As for my job description, I'm a "L2.5" and a "L3" support person in the kernel group. Being kind of easily bored and distractible, I also
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:13:47 ]<seg> take on just about anything else I understand. This has, at various times, included the shell, dasd drivers, MM drivers, utilities, and
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:14:20 ]<seg> just about everything besides real mode and winos2 stuff. I even help
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:14:59 ]<seg> with LAN stuff, but rarely. As far as the MPTN (and LAN) fixpacks, I Really have no idea whatever. I rarely get involved. Sorry. As far as
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:15:36 ]<seg> FP10 (and FP40), I think we're looking at around four weeks (plus or minus a couple).
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:16:21 ]<Lardog> ? I used an archive for fixpack7 and then deleted it. Now it defaults to that archive. Where is this edited as it will not allow me to install any other fixpacks....thank you
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:16:22 ]<seg> Longstaff: personally, I use Warp 3 at work, but the Lotus people were ver adamant about making Smartsuite run only on Warp 4. Unofficially, I find
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:16:35 ]<seg> it very irritating. I can'
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:17:49 ]<seg> (oops) can't even use Smartsuite on my main workstation at work, which is running Warp 3 SMP. At home, now, I'm using Warp4+java (or comm/2 when I need 3270 emulation) etc., etc., over the local Time-Warner roadrunner cable modem hookup. Works really
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:18:13 ]<seg> well out of the box (though I think there is a dependency on some fix lvel of MPTS).
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:00 ]<Longstaff> sounds like you're telling me upgrading that platform to 4 would be easier
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:02 ]<seg> Archive stuff: I've never figured it out, myself. I hate it. What I always do, which is probably not the best thing, is to delete every "*.log" "csf*" and "logf*" on
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:20 ]<seg> my system, then try again. Ask in comp.os.os2.bugs and somebody will
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:32 ]<seg> probably give you better advice. Have I gotten everything, so far?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:41 ]<ml> \os2\install that is, right ?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:57 ]<seg> \os2\install, \mmos2\install, whatever
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:19:57 ]<freiheit> and \mmos2\install I believe.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:20:02 ]<ml> ok
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:20:53 ]<seg> more?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:20:57 ]<Swanee> I was asked about y2k concerning an app today and didn't have a definitive answer for OS/2 itself. What is considered the base (fp?) level at which OS/2 is considered Y2K compliant.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:21:03 ]<Headache> what is the policy for adding new components to OS/2? ie java 1.2? what fp levels is it tested against?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:21:43 ]<seg> y2k: Warp 4+fp6 (I think -- please use FP7 or later, though, for other reasons). Warp 3: FP35 or later
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:22:14 ]<Swanee> Got it Seg, thanks
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:22:20 ]<seg> adding new components: There is some distinction to make between adding new stuff to the base product and adding new products that run on OS/2.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:22:44 ]<Headache> I am speaking mainly software choice products
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:23:01 ]<seg> Java is not really part of the product, as such (I think). Anyway, I believe that Java 2.0 (nee' 1.2) is in the works.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:23:12 ]<seg> Software choice products really aren
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:24:00 ]<seg> aren't part of base, mostly. They're other things that run on top. There was some work in FP9 or so and FP39 or so to make sure that we can correctly service these products, but
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:24:07 ]<Headache> warp 4.0 is supposedly first OS with java integrated into the OS (albeit java 1.0.2) so, I would say it is part of the base system.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:24:32 ]<Longstaff> does java 2.0 include a full warp swing implementation?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:24:37 ]<seg> that's about it. Netscape, for instance, is tested at GA levels and at recent fix levels.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:24:58 ]<seg> So is JAva. In fact, the testing of Netscape and Java lead to fixing some latent (And not so
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:25:26 ]<seg> latent) OS/2 bugs. Anyway, there is some give and take. The point of the Java integration
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:25:41 ]<seg> is well taken. Actually, the service for this is done by my department; I tend
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:26:06 ]<seg> to think of it as a separate product for other, potentially irrelevant, reasons. Anyway,
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:26:45 ]<seg> Java is, at least, not updated with base fixpacks, though, as I noted it may require some fixpack level or other for correct operation.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:26:49 ]<seg> I have no idea about what the new Java will contain. Really.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:26:56 ]<snowman> I understand that a fixpack ( 7? 8? ) broke tape backup support. Has this been fixed? In what Fixpack?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:27:24 ]<seg> I think that was FP9. A pmmerge fix screwed up a bunch of subclassing stuff. FP9
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:27:27 ]<mandie> wasn't that software related
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:27:41 ]<seg> was re-released without that fix. It will be completely healed in FP10.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:27:45 ]<Projects> snowman: I went from fp 5 to fp 9, and my tape backup still works
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:27:58 ]<snowman> Thanks
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:28:00 ]<mandie> I use fp8 and my scsi tape works fine
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:28:31 ]<seg> you got the re-released fp9. Anyway, the problem didn't affect tapes,
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:28:40 ]<seg> per se', it affected some WPS objects. So, Bakupwiz, e.g., was unaffected.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:29:18 ]<snowman> Ah so! I have Fastback/2 ( don't laugh :-)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:29:42 ]<seg> I never laugh at anything that works. I think fb/2 was my first backup program, back around '8u3.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:29:47 ]<seg> '83
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:30:45 ]<snowman> seg: while I'm talking, I'd like to thank you for your informative parcipitation in the newsgroups.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:30:51 ]<Headache> when will the SIQ problem be permanently laid to rest?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:30:54 ]<seg> you're welcome
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:08 ]<freiheit> oooh
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:16 ]<Headache> thats gotta be a fp thing =)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:31 ]<seg> You can't "fix" it completely without breaking existing apps. If we were M$, we would just say "tough" and fix it and
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:43 ]<Longstaff> well, it's a kernel thing
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:43 ]<seg> break everything else.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:54 ]<seg> It's ****not***** a kernel thing.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:31:56 ]<Egon> what specifically would it break?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:32:04 ]<freiheit> It's a PMShell thing, is it not?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:32:15 ]<seg> It's hard to say exactly which products. However, there are
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:32:52 ]<Headache> so, you are saying that IBM has in their infinate wisdom, instead of years ago fixing and live with some broken apps decided to make us suffer until the OS is dead because of a bad decision years ago?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:32:52 ]<seg> many apps that are written with certain assumptions about the order of delivery of Winxxx messages, as well as some other things.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:33:54 ]<Egon> seg: I think that most of us would live it with, unless it would break something like Comm/2...oh wait...nevermind :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:33:57 ]<freiheit> seg, is there any possibility (however remote) that the SIQ could indeed be fixed by way of a "virtual SIQ" for those apps that do require it? Something that would not adversely affect apps that don't need it?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:34:01 ]<seg> We could have fixed it six years ago, probably. Now, if we did something like that, we would REALLY upset a lot of big customers who depend on their apps to be stable! Stability is more important to most corporate customers than innovation, for
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:34:05 ]<seg> better or worse.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:34:08 ]<Headache> hehehe
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:34:47 ]<seg> I think there is no way to prove that this could not be "fixed" somehow. However, somebody would have to convince the management that it will make money.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:35:00 ]<Headache> LOL
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:35:02 ]<freiheit> hmm
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:35:08 ]<Headache> too ilttle too late
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:35:43 ]<seg> Personally, I deeply regret many of the choices that were made. Mostly nobody asked me about them. When I was asked or found out sufficiently early about
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:36:08 ]<seg> things, I tended (and still do tend) to add what I hope was some sense. Anyway, there is always
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:36:19 ]<seg> some tension between innovation and compatibility.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:36:28 ]<freiheit> *nod*
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:36:43 ]<Headache> seg: we realize that most IBM employees are not to blame.. nor are home users/SOHO users.. ibm corporate has ignored us all
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:36:55 ]<freiheit> And then there are companies like Be who push the industry forward without legacy baggage.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:37:13 ]<seg> there are good things about being able to start with a clean slate.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:37:28 ]<seg> Let me tell you a story:
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:37:34 ] * freiheit sees a correlation here -- IBM meets smaller, faster-moving company, loses desktop OS market ... twice.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:38:09 ]<seg> I fixed a problem wherein "DIR" looked really ugly with files >1gb in size. I fixed this by adding a space or two. Somebody really freaked,
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:38:45 ]<seg> because his end-of-month processing made assumptions about columns. In this case, I told him to fix the script; but you get the idea.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:38:54 ]<mandie> lol
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:39:06 ] * Longstaff understands
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:39:08 ]<mandie> seg: you're exactly what we need on the "inside" :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:40:15 ]<mandie> ok, if noone else is going to ask....then I will take it upon myself :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:40:28 ]<mandie> seg: any info on Warp 5 client? <G>
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:40:58 ] * freiheit waves his checkbook.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:00 ]<freiheit> :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:06 ]<seg> I saw the same info inm ZDNet that I presume you've seen. Truly, I hope there is one, but I really haven't heard anything one way or the other.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:13 ]<Swanee> mandie!!! You're going to get seg in trouble!
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:17 ]<mandie> fair enough :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:19 ] * Projects ^5's mandie
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:25 ]<mandie> swanee: hardly ;)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:30 ]<seg> Don't worry about my getting in trouble.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:31 ]<Swanee> hehe
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:41:50 ]<Swanee> seg: You mentioned using Warp 3 at work, can you tell us why you do? :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:42:15 ]<Headache> so he doesnt have to use lotus crap =)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:42:22 ]<Projects> hehehe
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:42:24 ]<ml> swanee: its lightning fast on a lowend computer today, like p133 :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:42:35 ]<seg> I use Warp 3 at work mainly so that I can be a guinea pig for SMP problems.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:43:40 ]<Projects> "give it to seg, he'll eat anything!" :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:43:49 ]<madodel> seg: then shouldn't you be running Aurora now? For SMP that is.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:43:50 ]<Swanee> Projects: lol
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:43:52 ]<mandie> seg=mikey :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:44:13 ]<seg> If you pay me enough, I'll eat anything that's Kosher. Anyway, I'll use Aurora once it is released.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:44:14 ]<freiheit> Here's a question I've been dying to ask for a while -- is there any way to build a better process killer into OS/2 -- one that's more responsive when the desktop is hung (CTRL-ESC often won't come up and I can't get to a command line to run go.exe)?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:44:27 ]<Headache> aurora prolly wont run on his p-133
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:44:58 ]<seg> Is it possible? Probably. Is IBM going to do it? Don't hold your breath.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:08 ]<Projects> runs fine on my old 486 dx/4 here
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:12 ]<freiheit> :(
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:14 ]<madodel> Headache: if i's SMP it should
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:41 ]<ml> A better Ctrl-Esc is what we all want
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:43 ]<freiheit> Because that would be one way to keep the SIQ and still make users happy with it.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:55 ]<ml> something as responsive as C-A-D
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:56 ]<ml> or better :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:45:59 ]<freiheit> If we could actually get around the SIQ when it strikes.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:46:13 ]<Headache> freiheit: you see profit in that?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:46:29 ]<freiheit> No, but I'm sure someone could put a spin on it to make it seem profitable.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:46:31 ]<freiheit> :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:46:33 ]<seg> Aurora will run on anything 486 or better. Like just about every software product these days, we seem to suffer from CPU and memory usage hogging. Mostly, customers seem to happier with more features and usability than with keeping older hardware.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:47:15 ]<Headache> seg: yes we know that.. but does IBM know that?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:47:32 ]<seg> know what?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:47:38 ]<Longstaff> y2k is motivating a lot of hardware upgrades....along with cheap prices
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:47:48 ]<Headache> they seem to cater to people who still have some dos script that needs to run and read from the DIR command
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:47:52 ]<Egon> oh, what about USB Support in OS/2?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:48:03 ]<Headache> rather then support new hardware
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:48:42 ]<seg> IBM caters to customers who spend a lot of money, mostly. Anyway, I think that new HW support and easy Install problems really significantly hurt OS/2.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:49:33 ]<Longstaff> seg - i agree completely about hw support....especially peripherals
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:51:04 ]<Headache> personally I hate when I buy a new toy (like my quickcam VC) and hafta boot into windows to use it
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:51:38 ]<seg> me, too. Write a device driver and give it away.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:51:42 ]<Headache> wasnt multimedia (including teleconferencing) supposed to big in os/2 (at least when 3.0 came out)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:52:13 ]<Headache> I would if I could squeeze the specs outta connectix
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:52:31 ]<seg> I think there was a big marketing shift away from home multimedia. The fact is that IBM execs decided that they were losing that battle....
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:52:54 ]<madodel> IBM had a app for the QC way back, but never released it. They had a web page showing the view out of their office running on a Warp 3 machine.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:53:04 ]<Swanee> How about business multimedia
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:53:34 ]<seg> beats me. If you can make a business case for it, then somebody will probably do it :-)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:53:42 ]<Longstaff> anything you can tell us about whether the lotus deal with realsudio will lead to a warp version eventually?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:54:03 ]<seg> beats me. I know zero about that.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:54:44 ]<Headache> so, any new features for os/2 coming to a fixpak in the near future?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:55:12 ]<Headache> I hope thats the question you have been waiting for =)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:55:17 ]<Swanee> I wish I could make a case for business use of multimedia seg, but alas, I am but a poor user :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:55:22 ]<seg> FP10 will have the same new servicability features (enhanced dynamic trace and enhanced process level dumps) that have been around since FP35 for Warp 3.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:55:40 ] * freiheit has no idea what those even are.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:55:55 ]<Headache> ahh thats a popular feature =)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:56:14 ]<seg> Other than that, I guess not -- new features are mostly deliberately kept out of the service line. That's an attempt at
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:56:39 ]<seg> product stability, not upgradesmanship, by the way.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:57:01 ]<seg> As far as what these service things are, they are mostly relevant only to software debuggers.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:57:14 ]<seg> Oh yeah,
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:57:25 ]<seg> there is also now a "just in time"
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:57:53 ]<seg> debugger feature in Warp 3 and, I think, Warp 4. I think it is analogous to a feature that's in WinNT.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:58:26 ]<Swanee> What exactly is that?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:58:29 ]<Headache> is this something we can set up to catch comm/2 just before it wrecks the system?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:59:15 ]<mandie> headache: I think those crashes are system dependent
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:59:29 ]<seg> what is it? I wish I knew, more, but I think it allows the system to pop up a code debugger that lets you debug an app rather than just have it generate a SY?S3175 or whatever.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:59:42 ]<Projects> meaning you can't crash it unless you have a system?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:59:50 ]<seg> Headache: Do I sense a little frustration?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:59:51 ]<mandie> lol
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 17:59:57 ]<Longstaff> i seem to be on a lotus kick tonight....were the open32 components used for SS and bundled in fp5 ever documented so other developers could make use of them?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:00:22 ]<Headache> seg: I get frustrated every few months.. part of being a /2er
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:00:39 ]<seg> Yes, I think the open32 stuff is documented. Maybe in the Devcon? Ask the question in comp.os.os2.programmer.misc and you'll probably get a more useful answer.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:00:48 ]<mandie> headache: but we don't give up without a fight :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:09 ]<Headache> nope.. took me three years to even install win95 on my machine =)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:16 ]<Headache> not that I use it... but its there
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:24 ] * freiheit won't install Win-anything on his machine.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:30 ]<Sector> mandie: Who said we give up with a fight? Just don't give up either way...
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:30 ]<Longstaff> seg - thank you for that vital clue! :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:32 ] * Projects has never stopped that low
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:58 ]<seg> I have win95 installed so that I can play Battlezone.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:59 ]<mandie> sector: agreed :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:01:59 ] * Sector doesn't use the mickysoft windoze virus in any form.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:02:15 ]<Headache> I like madden football myself
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:02:20 ] * Longstaff just said no :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:03:10 ]<seg> What really bugged me was when IBM World Book was produced so that it wouldn't run in winos2.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:03:16 ]<Projects> !op
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:03:52 ]<Headache> I no longer have any apps that run in winos2... I should uninstall it
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:04:11 ] * madodel is doing his taxes in win-OS/2
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:04:25 ]<seg> I do my taxes with a pencil and paper.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:04:59 ]<joel1> madodel: same here
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:05:08 ]<Headache> seg: does iBM ever even consider the home/SOHO users when making any decision?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:05:10 ] * Projects pays someone else to do his taxes
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:05:29 ] * freiheit resists laughing at Headache
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:05:30 ] * joel1 has been a loyal/paying TaxDollars customer for a few years
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:05:37 ]<seg> Are they considered? I don't know, really.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:06:27 ]<seg> By the way, one way in which *all* users are considered is that virtually any regression is considered a fix requirement.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:06:37 ]<mandie> I think IBM has made their stance clear when it comes to home/soho users
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:07:18 ]<Headache> I just wonder if they ever say something like.. well we have 1500 comments from paying customers that run individual machines that want support for (insert everday computer item here) but none of our 1500+ license business customers have asked for this, so lets forget about it
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:07:34 ]<seg> Nobody says it to me.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:07:56 ]<Headache> what do you mean by regression?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:08:16 ]<seg> regression: Something that worked before some code change in a fixpack broke it.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:09:22 ]<Lardog> I think we sould all be happy to have such a stable OS and the fact that IBM is STILL putting out the effort i.e FIXPACKS
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:10:07 ]<Headache> perhaps if it were thanksgiving
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:10:21 ]<seg> By the way, I have to leave at around 8:30 or so (Central)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:10:26 ]<Longstaff> lardog - i for one appreciate the effort....and pay for it in sw choice
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:10:39 ]<mandie> seg: ok
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:10:41 ]<Lardog> cool
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:11:19 ]<madodel> As much as we whine about IBM, they do a great job of supporting old systems. Look at how long they supported OS/2 2.1, and the still support Warp 3.0.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:11:28 ]<Lardog> my hat is off to all of us to use a REAL operating system and be thankful we know the difference
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:11:59 ]<Smaze> seg: any idea why my app (Virtual IRC) is broken in fp8 (and above) ? it just closes sometimes.. i suspect it is WinCreateWindow() when the cpu is loaded...
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:13:37 ]<seg> no, sounds weird. Have you asked the vendor about it? It's probably something along the lines of a stack overflow, but you never know. Having the vendor contact us, if it is a big problem for their customers, would probably help.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:13:53 ]<freiheit> Smaze is the author.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:13:54 ]<freiheit> :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:13:57 ]<Projects> he IS the vendor :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:14:04 ]<seg> ah.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:14:10 ]<Swanee> Smaze: I've got one like that but I figure it's a code prob and am still looking for it. The weird thing is that it is almost exactly like another version but just doesn't work.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:14:18 ]<seg> If the problem is recreatable,
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:14:31 ] * Projects can create the problem at will
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:14:48 ]<seg> you could make the code available to us on our ftp site and open a problem report. It will
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:15:01 ]<mandie> seg: this may be way off base from your expertise, but why would I have to have external cache disabled in order to boot to OS/2 ?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:15:06 ]<seg> probably get worked as a regression. Have you tried increasing the thread stack size.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:15:46 ]<seg> Mandie: That is exactly my experise. If you have to run with cache disable, it means that your cache (or CPU or motherboard) is defective. Plain and simple.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:16:00 ]<mandie> ewww...it's brand new :
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:16:02 ]<mandie> :(
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:16:12 ]<Headache> seg: wouldnt making apps change stack size to work at diff fixpak levels be a big nono for OS/2.. considering the consequences of old apps?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:16:26 ]<mandie> it booted fine to win98
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:16:34 ]<seg> return it! As my wife says, I'm sympathetic. I just bought all new stuff and had to swap half of it the first time around.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:16:51 ]<seg> Win98, BTW, is *not* as demanding as a real OS in terms of cache.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:17:01 ]<Projects> mandie: win98 is also defective
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:17:10 ]<mandie> LOL
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:17:33 ] * Longstaff never used to have to return this many parts :(
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:17:41 ]<Projects> plain and simple case of two wrongs making a right
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:17:41 ]<mandie> also...I was unable to boot to os2 when I used lba mode on my 5.1G hd...had to specify user parameters
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:17:58 ]<Headache> return the HD
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:18:04 ]<seg> Headache: we don't require different stack size. I am just observing that if the stack was marginal and if something happened to use a few more bytes, you might go over the edge....
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:15 ]<mandie> headache: didn't have the problem with my other MB/cpu
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:15 ]<mandie> even upgraded the bios
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:15 ]<seg> The drive thing might be a bit different. Make sure you
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:15 ]<Sector> mandie: I had a motherboard with the same problem (also refused to load the version of the Logitech Mouse driver I was using under PC-Dos) with the cache disabled no problem. I got a different motherboard without the problem
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:15 ]<mandie> sector: thx
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:15 ]<Smaze> Swanee: you got that problem in your own app?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:17 ]<seg> have a recent (in the last year) version of IBM1S506. There were some problems with disagreements between BIOS and drive parameters.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:17 ]<mandie> seg: using latest
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:21 ]<Swanee> an unreleased app that will not start until later in a session
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:19:58 ]<seg> Mandie: sounds odd. On the other hand, if it works, leave it alone.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:20:20 ]<mandie> seg: but am I losing performance by having the external cache disabled?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:20:41 ]<mandie> I'm very happy with the system as it is though
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:20:43 ]<seg> yes. I meant leave the drive alone. Get a new motherboard, ASAP!
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:20:44 ]<Smaze> Swanee: i see.. what compiler?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:20:50 ]<mandie> oh, ok
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:22:08 ]<Warpcraft> I know I was a little late to the party, but was just wondering if Mr. Garfinkle has already left?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:22:20 ]<seg> nope. He is still here. Call me Scott.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:22:29 ]<Projects> Warpcraft: seg = Nr. Garfinkle :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:22:31 ]<Warpcraft> Hi
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:22:41 ]<Swanee> Warpcraft: Catch him quick it's SEG
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:23:29 ]<Warpcraft> Dunno if this has already been covered, but is there a movement to include the latest MPTS and TCPIP fixes in the next fixpack?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:24:43 ]<seg> No. Why force people to download more than they have to? We have customers already who pay lots of extra $$$ so that they can install only tiny fix subsets. Imagine if we forced everyone to upgrade TCPIP just to fix a kernel problem!
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:25:17 ]<Warpcraft> Huh?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:25:37 ]<seg> Huh?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:25:57 ]<Swanee> Makes sense to me. :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:26:05 ]<seg> My wife says I was obtuse. The thing is, that most people would
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:26:15 ]<mandie> I can understand the reasoning there...but it would be nice if the mpts & tcpip0 fixes were cumulative and didn't require the install of seperate fixes
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:26:23 ]<seg> prefer to download several smaller fixes than be forced to download more than they want
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:26:42 ]<seg> Yes, I agree with Mandie.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:26:53 ]<Swanee> seg: hehe, Tell your wife that we thought she was acute. :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:26:53 ]<Warpcraft> It would be nice if ALL fixes were cumulative in ONE fixpack
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:00 ]<Swanee> A little geometry joke there...
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:01 ]<Headache> Suggest to IBM that they build a 'roll your own' fixpack site.. that includes only the fixpacks that users wants and it installs them without floppies
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:23 ]<seg> That's already possible with the RSU utility, I think.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:25 ]<madodel> The best place to get OS/2 component updates is duane's page http://duanec.indelible-blue.com/fixes/LatestWarp4.html
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:37 ]<Swanee> Headache: Ooo, I like that idea.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:50 ]<Headache> seg: like most things from IBM RSU is possible but unlikely
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:27:57 ]<mandie> seg: still a couple that aren't available through RSU
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:28:35 ]<seg> well, I think that if you want to write an app (preferably in Java) and make it available, we might be able to use it.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:28:46 ]<Headache> I think I have had one succesful RSU update in my life.. and I have had several attempts.. I no longer attempt it
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:28:48 ] * Swanee hasn't tried RSU in ages. Forgot all about it. Been getting the BMT fixpack cd's
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:08 ]<mandie> headache: I have used the RSU when available and never had it fail
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:10 ] * Projects never got rsu to work, so never used it
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:15 ]<seg> I download the fixpack and use a virtual floppy utility, myself
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:26 ]<Projects> seg: same here
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:27 ]<Headache> seg: excuse me, but I paid full price for my copy of OS/2 and dont think I should hafta write the apps to update the thing
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:30 ]<Warpcraft> The RSU facility is nice for one or two clients, but if I have a good number of clients or servers that need to be brought up to the latest level, it would be extremely nice to be able to download ONE fixpack and take care of all fixlevels.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:39 ]<madodel> RSU rocks, especially with a cable modem. ;-)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:29:54 ]<Swanee> I have used RSU also, just haven't lately
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:30:06 ]<seg> Take it easy, Headache. The fixes are made available. I Agree that there might be better ways to apply them;
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:30:34 ]<mandie> /dcc headache 2 tylenol X-strength :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:30:47 ]<Headache> :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:30:52 ]<seg> however, I don't know whether there is anybody working on that or not. Anyway, at least we provide fixes, as opposed to some companies I could bame
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:30:53 ]<mandie> :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:30:54 ]<seg> name
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:05 ]<donh> and they work, too
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:08 ]<Swanee> seg: :-)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:31 ]<mandie> Duane at Indelible Blue has a site setup for fixpack installs...and it has worked well in the past
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:38 ]<Projects> hey, that other company provides fixes... they just charge for a new OS
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:38 ]<Headache> I agree that IBM makes fixpaks much more readily then other companies
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:51 ]<Headache> and every 2 or 3 years they charge you for one
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:52 ]<mandie> I did have a bit of a problem with my lastest reinstall of OS/2 though as some of his fp's were outdated :(
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:31:55 ]<seg> Any last issues I can help wrap up before I get going?
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:32:07 ]<joel1> I've never had a problem with RSU that I couldn't resolve
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:32:23 ]<mandie> seg: we'd like to thank you for taking the time to support the os2 community!!!
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:32:51 ]<Swanee> Thank you for your time and patience Scott.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:07 ]<Headache> seg: thanks for the questions you have answered...
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:13 ]<Longstaff> great session seg....when are ya coming back? :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:28 ]<joel1> seg: thanks a lot
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:37 ]<mandie> seg: can we get you after the next fixpack is released? <G>
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:40 ]<StevenL> seg: thanks also
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:48 ]<mandie> always alot of questions with new fp's
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:33:53 ]<seg> ok, I'm glad to help. Don't forget, there are a bunch of us who monitor the newsgroups, so please feel free to ask. Concise subject lines help to catch our eyes.... Maybe I'll stop back again for another session. Thank you all for helping support us.
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:34:23 ]<Lardog> thanks for the help seg
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:34:37 ]<mandie> uh oh..he'd better check with the vendor! <G>
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:34:51 ]<Projects> hahahaha
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:34:52 ]<Swanee> mandie: :)
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:35:21 ]<mandie> thanks to everyone for joining us tonight
[ 01-11-99 ] [ 18:35:41 ]<mandie> next Monday we will have Tim Sipples return for another networking speakup :)