SpeakUp with Joe Nord of Crystal Semiconductor from 02/22/99

<Swanee>	Welcome to the Voice channel. Tonight we have Joe Nord from Crystal Semiconductor with us. Joe, call you tell us a little about yourself before we get started?
<JoeNord>	Hello.
<JoeNord>	I'm a former OS/2 developer - ( IBM ) Have been
<JoeNord>	will Crystal Semiconductor for the last 3 years.
<JoeNord>	Was part of the original OS/2 MMPM/2 development team - moved from
<JoeNord>	their to IBM's device driver groups and eventually found my home in audio.
<JoeNord>	Have been working with OS/2 since 1991
<JoeNord>	Before that was DOS / PharLap and various DOS / UNIX environments
<JoeNord>	IS that good enough start?
<Swanee>	Thank you Joe, That was a good start. :-) Unless you have something to add? We will open the floor for questions.
<JoeNord>	I gathered up questions that people were good enough to send in.
<madodel>	That advanced question idea was a great idea by the way
<JoeNord>	I will probably do best answering questions regarding Crystal's OS/2 device drivers though I can take a stab at general OS/2-MMPM/2.
<JoeNord>	Always better to have real answers than guesses.
<JoeNord>	BTW - Does spelling count for anything?
<Sector>	I guess so
<Longstaff>	spelling don't count for beanz :)
<mandie>	JoeNord: if you spell poorly..then you have to do a return speakup :)
<PoohAtWrk>	this isn't a spelling class. :)
<JoeNord>	I received several questions regarding PCI sound support - boards, drivers ... ANyone want to kick one off.
*	Swanee would like to see somewon at his speeling levil of acheevmint
<mandie>	does Crystal any pci cards that are compatible with os2?
<JoeNord>	There you go.
<JoeNord>	That came up several times in the questions. The real question is "does Crystal Semiconductor producte any sound cards"??
<JoeNord>	The answer is no. We make chips.
*	KoolAde was gonna ask same question was do a search on crystal home page but no pci chip support
<madodel>	Ah but you sell those chips to someone
<JoeNord>	We do however design many sound cards -
<mandie>	what cards use your chips that are supported by os2 (pci)
<JoeNord>	generally as reference designs and we commonly review the hardware designs of our customers.
<JoeNord>	Crystal WWW site should have stuff on PCI OS/2. Drivers were posted 11/30/98
<JoeNord>	BTW - It is Cirrus Logic WWW site.
<JoeNord>	For those who may not be aware, Crystal Semiconductor is owned by Cirrus Logic.
<JoeNord>	Should see a rev to the PCI driver set in the next week or two.
<mandie>	Thetaband!!! :)
<ThetaBand>	re
<JoeNord>	Summarizing the driver set, there is the "mode-2"(CS4231), "mode-3"(CS5236B/7B/8B/4235,4239) and PCI.
<JoeNord>	I wrote most of the mode-3 driver and the PCI.
*	Eccles has an AOpen AW37, and is very happy with it.
<KoolAde>	JoeNord I was do a search and found no reference on Cirrus www relateing to a driver for pci in os/2 , or the driver was a bare bones one with on support for card at all
<JoeNord>	I've grouped the code stacks into 3 version classes 1.xx, 2.xx and 3.xx.
<Eccles>	not PCI, tho'
<JoeNord>	Hang on a second - I'll look up the URL.
<Swanee>	Projects!!!
<BeazDbear>
<Projects>	Swanee!
<Projects>	!op
<KoolAde>	while Joe is looking up url, I want to tell all that the base USB drivers and the audio usb dont work on a P5A assus mb
<JoeNord>	GOt it. http://www.cirrus.com/drivers/audiodrv/
<JoeNord>	Hit the OS/2 section - driver version 3.00.
<JoeNord>	3.01 will be next drop - I've given up on incrementing by .10.
<JoeNord>	Big addition here will be WinOS2 support - 3.02 will be the version that adds FM.
<Eccles>	I have a question re Win-OS/2
<JoeNord>	By about there, it will be working fully.
<mandie>	!ask cirrus
<VoiceBot>	[cirrus] http://www.cirrus.com/drivers/audiodrv/ (mandie)
<JoeNord>	Go ahead.
<Longstaff>	joeNord...that sounds interesting - can you comment a little further on fm?
<Eccles>	I have sound working just fine in OS/2 and Win-OS/2, but the volume in Win-OS/2 is much softer than OS/2. How can I boost that volume level?
<JoeNord>	The ISA devices implement FM via dedicated hardware. The PCI set uses DSP tasks to intrepret programming to the 0x388..0x38A I/O space.
<JoeNord>	In first development, the IBM OPL3.sys FM device driver and our DSP code didn't get along.
<Eccles>	Have to compliment you guys on the painless install process, too.
<JoeNord>	Thankfully, we're fixing it proper in the DSP.
<JoeNord>	Always good to see the right solutions.
<JoeNord>	This will also provide FM support for DOS games in OS/2 VDM.
<JoeNord>	FM support is probable for release in mid-March.
<JoeNord>	When that happens, I move on to the next device.....
<JoeNord>	FWIW - Current PCI driver supports the CS4614, CS4624 and CS4280.
<JoeNord>	You'll note that I haven't quoted boards.
<JoeNord>	This is a common thing - writing the driver, we often times never know what boards are using hte chips.
<JoeNord>	I mean, the boards come later...
<Longstaff>	joeNord....does that mean that questions about baords are off-limits?
<JoeNord>	Generally pretty easy to find it after the fact.
<madodel>	How do you test them then?
<ThetaBand>	Are there any soundcards that have Crystal's PCI chips on them? Last I checked, there were none.
<JoeNord>	Nope - it only means that my answers are not as good on boards as they will be on chips. Fire away!
<KoolAde>	I want to have the same answer as ThetaBand
<JoeNord>	I have several in my office!
<ThetaBand>	not reference boards, real sound cards anyone can buy
<KoolAde>	whose are they
<JoeNord>	Though you're right, all are reference designs.
<JoeNord>	I did some checking on that (today in fact)
<JoeNord>	hoping ot be able to tell you all were to go to buy one.
<JoeNord>	Sad news. Nothing I can announce.
<JoeNord>	THere are board companies out there that have designs in progress.
<ThetaBand>	"designs in progress" - I heard that 9 months ago.
<JoeNord>	I can't really comment on them as there is no guarantee that they will go product or not. You will be
<Longstaff>	i actually have a question about boards....i have a sb16 at the moment and would like to upgrade to a top-of-the-line warp soundcard, but i don't have time for a lot of installation skitterhassles....is there any clear preference?
<JoeNord>	glad to know that it is the OS/2 demand that has them motivated.
<JoeNord>	Heck - we hardly had chips 9 months ago.
<JoeNord>	I updated the latest Crystal ISA installer (common to the PCI) to de-install ALL
<JoeNord>	sound devices before installing Crystal.
<JoeNord>	This pretty much solves the upgrade propcess.
<ThetaBand>	what version of the installer has that feature? It's not 2.07, is it?
<JoeNord>	I filtered the MMPM2.INI file - you'll have to handle config.sys by hand.
<JoeNord>	Don't know. Hang on. Gotta check notes.
<JoeNord>	2.08.
<ThetaBand>	I thought GENIN was capable of removing lines from CONFIG.SYS?
<JoeNord>	Ooops. Haven't shipped it yet.
<JoeNord>	Note to self - update ISA drivers on WWW.....
<JoeNord>	GenIn can handle removing lines from config.sys, but
<JoeNord>	only lines that it is going to add.
<JoeNord>	It doesn't handle taking out non-related stuff.
<ThetaBand>	eh? you mean it can only replace or add, but not delete?
<JoeNord>	Right - everything is an upgrade. You get another audiod evice.
<ThetaBand>	but you can delete entries in MMPM2.INI, right?
<JoeNord>	So, if SB16 is installed and you install Crystal ISA driver, you then
<JoeNord>	have two MMPM/2 "devices".
<ThetaBand>	so is this just a limition of GENIN?
<JoeNord>	Nope.
<JoeNord>	MMPM2.INI is cached in RAM by MMPM/2 and anything you do in an editor
<JoeNord>	will get un-done when the system shuts down.
<ThetaBand>	I know that
<JoeNord>	You can edit it when MMPM/2 is not loaded.... Un-reliable..
<ThetaBand>	what I mean is the new "delete all" feature apparently only works on MMPM2.INI
<JoeNord>	I automated it.
<ThetaBand>	but not on CONFIG.SYS - sounds like a GENIN limitation.
<JoeNord>	Does that work on Warp 3 FP 26?
<JoeNord>	Retorical question. If no, it is useless for a general install program.
*	ThetaBand is confused
<JoeNord>	But - requirements for Warp 3 support are diminishing.
<JoeNord>	Overall, minstall has done pretty well. Over-install has been a install weakness.
<JoeNord>	As far as I know, Crystal Semi is the only outfit that can cleanly handle overinstall.
<JoeNord>	My competitors will see this as a personal challenge!!!!
*	BeazDbear has 3.0 32+ on 3 machines
<JoeNord>	I'm thinking bigger numbers.
<JoeNord>	30,000
<JoeNord>	We still fully support Warp 3
<madodel>	Have you done any testing with Aurora and these new drivers and install?
<JoeNord>	Aurora?
<KoolAde>	oh boy JoeNord has been in a hybernation :)
<Longstaff>	is the lotus deal with realaudio going to get us java realaudio support, or warp realaudio support?
<Swanee>	JoeNord: And have there been any differences (aurora and Warp 4 installs for example)
<madodel>	OS/2 Warp server for eBusiness, AKA Warp Server 5, AKA Aurora
<JoeNord>	I've never fully understood why people want audio on network servers. No matter.
<madodel>	some people are forced to use servers as desktops
<JoeNord>	I have been asked to fix problems and have updated drivers for IBM (Austin group) in support of OS/2 V5 or what ever the name is.
<KoolAde>	heh maybe the cat is out of the bag :)
<JoeNord>	When I was the development lead for OS/2 device drivers (IBM days) - I had a vender make a similar statment to me regarding REcoRD>
<JoeNord>	He said - "implment record" Why? Nobody records....
<JoeNord>	Guess voice-type has changed that.
<ThetaBand>	Record IS important on a server - that's how internet radio works
<JoeNord>	Working Full duplex is finally a requirement.
<ThetaBand>	The server could also be a webcam or an MP3 server
<JoeNord>	You guys should love the mixer stuff I put into the PCI driver.
*	ThetaBand notes that someone recently uploaded a streaming MP3 server for OS/2 to hobbes.nmsu.edu
<madodel>	I see there is now an MP3 server ported to OS/2
<JoeNord>	You can control just about anything on the AC97 mixer. Everything is fixable via .INI for all the places that
<JoeNord>	me and your board venders have messed it up.
<JoeNord>	Streaming MP3 - Neato. Got music rights for that? ;-)
<madodel>	AC97 mixer?
<ThetaBand>	the idea is that you create your own MP3 audio on the fly
<ThetaBand>	and it streams that audio to the internet.
<JoeNord>	Now I'm not the one in hibernation.
<JoeNord>	AC97 is good stuff.
<JoeNord>	Defined by Intel as the Analog to Digital and D/A side of a DSP audio solution.
<ThetaBand>	AC97 has fewer mixing options that the Mode 3 ISA chips.
<JoeNord>	Separate chip - many available implementations. All register compatible - barding super/subsets.
<KoolAde>	how does that effect an os/2 user without a decent sound card to buy PCI style
<JoeNord>	Because right now - it is really hard to purchase a motherboard that doesn't have audio on it.
<JoeNord>	And - it will likely have an AC97 chip on it - only you probably won't know abou it unless you check reall carefully.
<JoeNord>	Since most future sound solutions will be based on AC97 mixer architecture, I went to a fair ammount of trouble to make the mixer fully configurable in the PCI driver set.
<JoeNord>	I plan to steal the code for subsequent designs.
<ThetaBand>	including support for non-Crystal AC97 parts?
<JoeNord>	Not likely.
<ThetaBand>	AC97 supports vendor ID's in the register set - I assume the crystal drivers check those?
<JoeNord>	I know who pays me....
<JoeNord>	You assume correctly.
<JoeNord>	Hardware wise however the AC97 chips plug into digital end of puzzle in Intel defined manner. Chips are conceptually pluggable.
<JoeNord>	In reality, people buy them in sets.
*	KoolAde is confused , if all this is being added to a PCI drivers when there are no PCI Sound Cards :?
<JoeNord>	Thought we covered that.... ;)
<JoeNord>	The market for Add-In boards is really small.
<JoeNord>	Its gotta be on the motherboard or it isn't huge.
<JoeNord>	That does mean though that there is a new market - fringe market.
<JoeNord>	Some people are looking to fill that market.
<JoeNord>	Will they find it sufficiently profitable to build boards?
<JoeNord>	Don't know - I'm a programmer, not marketeer...
<JoeNord>	I can tell them though that my drivers will work.
<JoeNord>	Still, I work for a chip company. We ship 30 Million Sound chips / year. Or something like that. Don't quote me....Check Mercury Research for numbers.
<JoeNord>	Should we hit a new topic?
<ThetaBand>	Can you talk about your biggest customers?
<ThetaBand>	who is demanding OS/2 support?
<JoeNord>	Dell, Intel, IBM, HP.
<ThetaBand>	So these companies actually test their systems with OS/2?
<JoeNord>	OS/2 fans: All of the above. Throw in Compaq and anyone else moving lots of equipment.
*	KoolAde now I am really confused :)
<JoeNord>	We make lots of sales that are very much supported by the quality of our OS/2 driver support.
<JoeNord>	Remember - just because you
<JoeNord>	can't find someone at these companies who can talk intelligently about OS/2 does
<ThetaBand>	Which drivers support the MMPM/2 mixer API?
<JoeNord>	not mean that they don't mandate quality OS/2 drivers for their suppiers (me).
<JoeNord>	Re: MMPM/2 Mixer API.
<JoeNord>	Only the Turtle Beach Tropez sample driver on the DDK.
<JoeNord>	Probably also the ESS stuff - mixer side of it written by same person.
<ThetaBand>	So if the Crystal drivers don't support the API, how can you do mixing?
<JoeNord>	I actually implmented some other APIs on request from someone.
<JoeNord>	The APP suffered from great troubles.
<JoeNord>	Wanna know the full story.
<JoeNord>	?
<ThetaBand>	Sure
<JoeNord>	The long and short of it - okay, just hte long.
<JoeNord>	The APIs were implemented many moons ago. The driver side under my direction in fact, so I have no one to blaim but myself.
<JoeNord>	But - there was a chicken & egg problem.
<JoeNord>	With no drivers - there would be no app.....
<JoeNord>	Finally, the APP APIs were written and were shipped in Warp 3 as was required to pull off drivers.
<JoeNord>	Gotta hvae the API in the OS or the driver venders won't support the APIs.
<JoeNord>	BUT! The APP was not part of the OS. ship the APP.
<JoeNord>	So, the OS (Warp 3) went out the door with these new APIs - with no application -- and no drivers.
<JoeNord>	But, this should get it started.
<JoeNord>	That was the thought.
<ThetaBand>	I heard there are bugs in the API and the implementation that result in this whole thing being worthless.
<JoeNord>	Unfortunately, the APIs were busted, so it all became close to worthless.
<madodel>	Is that when IBM abandoned Warp as a multi-media platform?
<JoeNord>	Nope.
<JoeNord>	Did they?
<ThetaBand>	Some people think so.
<JoeNord>	BTW - The API is still busted. Without changes at ring-3, master volume won't work.
<JoeNord>	My solution was to conclude it all to be for not and push on with the APIs that worked.
<ThetaBand>	What API's?
<JoeNord>	The "OLD" ones. AUDIODD APIs from OS/2 2.0 (MMPM/2 release 1.0). AUDIO_IOCTL_CHANGE.
<ThetaBand>	ugh - those don't provide anywhere near the same level of control as the Mixer API's
<JoeNord>	Very true.
<ThetaBand>	what if some third party created a replacement VSD that fixed all those API's?
<JoeNord>	The only missing piece though is the control of the mixer entrypoints that MMPM/2 doesn't address.
<ThetaBand>	AND provided an app - would Crystal be willing to add support for those API's?
<JoeNord>	I have coded IOCTL support (on request from some guy with a radio-tuner program). Don't know if he ever did anything with it.
<JoeNord>	Anyone wanna know the IOCTLS? If yes, send me a note off-line.
<ThetaBand>	you mean you've added mixer ioctls that are not in the MMPM spec?
<JoeNord>	Can I re-distribute the app?
<JoeNord>	Re: IOCTLs outside spec: Yes.
<ThetaBand>	would being able to redistribute the app royalty-free be a requirement?
<JoeNord>	YEs. And translated to 13 languages.
<Skip^>	OH!
<JoeNord>	Life sucks when reality hits.
<JoeNord>	The beauty of drivers is the lack of translation requirements.
<ThetaBand>	hmmm ... translating into 13 languages would be very difficult
<JoeNord>	Well, US English, French, German, Spanish and Japanese should really be enough.
<ThetaBand>	the royalty-free part would probably be doable only if this version worked with the Crystal drivers exclusively.
<JoeNord>	complexity of the fancy API and did I mention that they are based on the AC97 mixer architecutre.
<ThetaBand>	Well, Theta Band Software is interested in taking the first steps to creating a unified mixer API
<ThetaBand>	however, we have a solution in mind that can overcome driver-specific API's and make them generic
<JoeNord>	That's right, the ISA driver set implements the API to look like the PCI part. Bazaar, but on-purpose.
<ThetaBand>	the ISA parts implement an AC97-compatible mixer api?
<JoeNord>	Don't worry too much about the device-specific part. That can probably be handled. All that is necessary is publishing the APIs - wihich I can handle.
<JoeNord>	5 years later, perhaps I will actually succeed at an OS/2 mixer!
<ThetaBand>	so in other words, even though the ISA parts have a superior mixer, the driver "dumbs" it down to the PCI level?
<JoeNord>	Bingo!
<JoeNord>	Gotta love the API portablity.
<ThetaBand>	well, it is important
<ThetaBand>	but there is still no app, right?
<JoeNord>	I live mostly at ring-0.
<ThetaBand>	Does the Mode 2 driver also have this AC97-compatible mixer API?
<JoeNord>	Nope. Mode 2 (1.xx) driver is pretty much maintenance mode.
<JoeNord>	If takes off on the Mode 3 driver (2.xx) I could add it to the old prety easily.
<ThetaBand>	Can you tell us what percentage of new chip sales are ISA and what are PCI?
<JoeNord>	I'd be happy to, but I don't know the answers (in firm numbers).
<ThetaBand>	to the nearest 20%?
<JoeNord>	ISA is ramping down, PCI is ramping up.
<JoeNord>	All new designs are PCI.
<ThetaBand>	but you're still selling an appreciable number of ISA chips?
<JoeNord>	I'd better not guess. Don't wanna miss it badly.
<JoeNord>	Yes, millions every month.
<JoeNord>	But quanity is shifting to PCI.
<ThetaBand>	Are all of these mode 3 chips?
<JoeNord>	Almost. Mode 2 parts are pretty old - but, people are still buying them.
<JoeNord>	Remember that even though the version 1.xx driver was once upon a time used for the CS4236B, 7B and 8B, those parts are really mode 3.
<JoeNord>	The 1.xx driver works on them only due to backward compatibility in the hardware.
<JoeNord>	The new ISA parts drop the backward compatibilty in favor of cost. These REQUIRE mode 3 aware driver support.
<JoeNord>	So, the version 2.xx driver works on CS4236B, CS4237B, Cs4238B and CS4235, CS4239.
<JoeNord>	The mode 2 driver is only needed for the CS4248, CS4231 and CS4232 and the CS4236(not-B).
<JoeNord>	We're off topic. The bottom line is that a mixer API for the version 1.xx driver isn't critical.
<JoeNord>	Most everything is handled by the 2.xx driver (mode 3 ISA) and 3.00 (PCI) driver.
*	Swanee is lost. He sees his chip mentioned but has no idea what to make of all this.
<Swanee>	:)
<ThetaBand>	swanee: have you look at Timur's Crystal Semi and OS/2 page?
<JoeNord>	Chips is chips. Boards are a weird concept to me..... ;-)
<JoeNord>	Yup. Not lately though.
<Swanee>	I have and dii see what mode mine was but do not remember much after making some decisions based on it
<Swanee>	dii=did
<JoeNord>	If bought it in last 4 years, its mode 3.
<JoeNord>	( probably )
<Swanee>	CS4236? Mode 3?
<JoeNord>	Sometimes chips are labeled CS4236 that are acutally "CS4236B".
<Swanee>	CS4236 PNP is what my docs said
<JoeNord>	If wanna know for sure, load my version 2.xx driver and turn on "/v"
<JoeNord>	switch to the CWAUDIO.sys device driver (verbose). It will tell you what you have.
<JoeNord>	Docs tend to be generic.
<JoeNord>	Did I mention 13 languages?
<JoeNord>	Lately I notice that the PC world is getting even smarter and not including docs at all.......
<Skip^>	What about CS4231A???????
<JoeNord>	I've considered writing a utility to tell people what chip they have. Haven't gotten around to it.
<Swanee>	JoeNord: Just added "/V" to it in my config. I'll know next time I reboot. (that may be a while it's been about a week since the last reboot)
<JoeNord>	Driver does the job with /V.
<JoeNord>	CS4236B has been a very successful part.
<JoeNord>	Okay, what else is up?
<JoeNord>	Mixer sounds pretty well killed.
<JoeNord>	Warp 3 is done.
<Swanee>	JoeNord: Did we cover you questions you got ahead of time?
<JoeNord>	Mode2/Mode3 done and lots of people looking for a PCI add-in card.
<JoeNord>	Nope. I have a few queued up. We should probably document them for the log.
<JoeNord>	Here goes.
<JoeNord>	IBM Aptiva with Crystal Semi ISA and PCI - Can't hear nothin.
<JoeNord>	Solution: Motherboard defaults to muting everything.
<JoeNord>	Unmute via "/XCTRL0:1 /XCTRL1:1" command line parms to CWAUDIO.sys.
<JoeNord>	For the record, XCTRL0 is "mute all" and XCTRL1 is "mute subwoffer".
<JoeNord>	Hardware pins default to zero which on this system is "muted".
<JoeNord>	List of sound cards with links:
<JoeNord>	I don't have a list.
<JoeNord>	Might be able to get Timur Tabi to update his Crystal page for it. Would make his life easier if folks send him details on their boards.
<JoeNord>	( yes, I just bombarded Timur with mail )
<mandie>	I'm surprised that he's not here tonight
<JoeNord>	Probably shoudn't send info unless he posts a request for it on his web site. I'll givem him a nude.
<JoeNord>	Yes, that is curious. He is the one who introduced me to Judy.
<mandie>	as in nudge?
<mandie>	<--Judy
<JoeNord>	Yeeaaa..!
<Swanee>	"I'll givem him a nude"? What kind of relationship did you guys have? :-)
<JoeNord>	Ooooppsss
<Projects>	I'll take that nude...
<mandie>	hehe
<Swanee>	LOL
<JoeNord>	Not that close I can assure you.
<mandie>	LOL
<JoeNord>	He's a good fellow. Even if he did quit working at Crystal.
<Swanee>	Maybe Joe meant a statue like "Venus de Milo"
<JoeNord>	He's still a fan though. If run into him ask him about checking in OS/2 PCI driver files.
<JoeNord>	Guaranteed to be good for entertainment.
<Swanee>	hehe
<Sector>	Especially if you run into him nude
<JoeNord>	What chat-room am I in?
<JoeNord>	I must have clicked on the wrong box.......
<JoeNord>	Okay gang. I think we're getting close to the end here. I have enjoyed this.
<JoeNord>	On mixer - send me a note at nord@crystal.cirrus.com.
<Swanee>	JoeNord: I've enjoyed this too Joe. I think I may have even learned something. I'm glad to see someone like you at the helm.
<JoeNord>	Writing driver is fun. Especially fun when the end-game works. We have been pretty successful.
<JoeNord>	All done?
<Swanee>	And we are indebted. Crystal seems to give the best support for sound chips on OS/2.
*	madodel0 has two crystal chip built-ins. Never again to SB
<JoeNord>	Thank you.
<JoeNord>	Good night everyone.
<Swanee>	Thanks for coming us Joe.
<Swanee>	Thanks for coming Joe.
<Swanee>	LOL
<donh>	was it mentioned where to get add-on crystal-based boards that actyually work?
<Swanee>	BIG MISTAKE! Always reread before sending after editing your post! LOL
<donh>	-y >
<Swanee>	madodel: I think I'll furnish the log tonight so I can adit that gaff out. :-)
<Swanee>	adit=edit
<donh>	and that one, too
<Projects>	Swanee's going to audit us?
<madodel>	Is it me or is WEBBnet havng some problems tonight?
*	Sector thinks it's all madodel (other then his modem disconnecting his connection has been fine)
<Swanee>	Projects: Swanee doesn't audit, the IRS audits. I might adit or even edit but not audit. :)
<madodel0>	Both my sessions keep lagging and my server keeps spliting
<Swanee>	madodel: Webbnet IS having problems. Look what it has done to my spelling and grammer.
<Swanee>	:)
<Sector>	Could be general internet slugishness
<Projects>	hehe