SpeakUp with Joe Nord of Crystal Semiconductor from 02/22/99

<Swanee>  Welcome to the Voice channel. Tonight we have Joe Nord from Crystal Semiconductor with us. Joe, call you tell us a little about yourself before we get started?
<JoeNord>  Hello.
<JoeNord>  I'm a former OS/2 developer - ( IBM ) Have been
<JoeNord>  will Crystal Semiconductor for the last 3 years.
<JoeNord>  Was part of the original OS/2 MMPM/2 development team - moved from
<JoeNord>  their to IBM's device driver groups and eventually found my home in audio.
<JoeNord>  Have been working with OS/2 since 1991
<JoeNord>  Before that was DOS / PharLap and various DOS / UNIX environments
<JoeNord>  IS that good enough start?
<Swanee>  Thank you Joe, That was a good start. :-) Unless you have something to add? We will open the floor for questions.
<JoeNord>  I gathered up questions that people were good enough to send in.
<madodel>  That advanced question idea was a great idea by the way
<JoeNord>  I will probably do best answering questions regarding Crystal's OS/2 device drivers though I can take a stab at general OS/2-MMPM/2.
<JoeNord>  Always better to have real answers than guesses.
<JoeNord>  BTW - Does spelling count for anything?
<Sector>  I guess so
<Longstaff>  spelling don't count for beanz :)
<mandie>  JoeNord: if you spell poorly..then you have to do a return speakup :)
<PoohAtWrk>  this isn't a spelling class. :)
<JoeNord>  I received several questions regarding PCI sound support - boards, drivers ... ANyone want to kick one off.
*  Swanee would like to see somewon at his speeling levil of acheevmint
<mandie>  does Crystal any pci cards that are compatible with os2?
<JoeNord>  There you go.
<JoeNord>  That came up several times in the questions. The real question is "does Crystal Semiconductor producte any sound cards"??
<JoeNord>  The answer is no. We make chips.
*  KoolAde was gonna ask same question was do a search on crystal home page but no pci chip support
<madodel>  Ah but you sell those chips to someone
<JoeNord>  We do however design many sound cards -
<mandie>  what cards use your chips that are supported by os2 (pci)
<JoeNord>  generally as reference designs and we commonly review the hardware designs of our customers.
<JoeNord>  Crystal WWW site should have stuff on PCI OS/2. Drivers were posted 11/30/98
<JoeNord>  BTW - It is Cirrus Logic WWW site.
<JoeNord>  For those who may not be aware, Crystal Semiconductor is owned by Cirrus Logic.
<JoeNord>  Should see a rev to the PCI driver set in the next week or two.
<mandie>  Thetaband!!! :)
<ThetaBand>  re
<JoeNord>  Summarizing the driver set, there is the "mode-2"(CS4231), "mode-3"(CS5236B/7B/8B/4235,4239) and PCI.
<JoeNord>  I wrote most of the mode-3 driver and the PCI.
*  Eccles has an AOpen AW37, and is very happy with it.
<KoolAde>  JoeNord I was do a search and found no reference on Cirrus www relateing to a driver for pci in os/2 , or the driver was a bare bones one with on support for card at all
<JoeNord>  I've grouped the code stacks into 3 version classes 1.xx, 2.xx and 3.xx.
<Eccles>  not PCI, tho'
<JoeNord>  Hang on a second - I'll look up the URL.
<Swanee>  Projects!!!
<Projects>  Swanee!
<Projects>  !op
<KoolAde>  while Joe is looking up url, I want to tell all that the base USB drivers and the audio usb dont work on a P5A assus mb
<JoeNord>  GOt it. http://www.cirrus.com/drivers/audiodrv/
<JoeNord>  Hit the OS/2 section - driver version 3.00.
<JoeNord>  3.01 will be next drop - I've given up on incrementing by .10.
<JoeNord>  Big addition here will be WinOS2 support - 3.02 will be the version that adds FM.
<Eccles>  I have a question re Win-OS/2
<JoeNord>  By about there, it will be working fully.
<mandie>  !ask cirrus
<VoiceBot>  [cirrus] http://www.cirrus.com/drivers/audiodrv/ (mandie)
<JoeNord>  Go ahead.
<Longstaff>  joeNord...that sounds interesting - can you comment a little further on fm?
<Eccles>  I have sound working just fine in OS/2 and Win-OS/2, but the volume in Win-OS/2 is much softer than OS/2. How can I boost that volume level?
<JoeNord>  The ISA devices implement FM via dedicated hardware. The PCI set uses DSP tasks to intrepret programming to the 0x388..0x38A I/O space.
<JoeNord>  In first development, the IBM OPL3.sys FM device driver and our DSP code didn't get along.
<Eccles>  Have to compliment you guys on the painless install process, too.
<JoeNord>  Thankfully, we're fixing it proper in the DSP.
<JoeNord>  Always good to see the right solutions.
<JoeNord>  This will also provide FM support for DOS games in OS/2 VDM.
<JoeNord>  FM support is probable for release in mid-March.
<JoeNord>  When that happens, I move on to the next device.....
<JoeNord>  FWIW - Current PCI driver supports the CS4614, CS4624 and CS4280.
<JoeNord>  You'll note that I haven't quoted boards.
<JoeNord>  This is a common thing - writing the driver, we often times never know what boards are using hte chips.
<JoeNord>  I mean, the boards come later...
<Longstaff>  joeNord....does that mean that questions about baords are off-limits?
<JoeNord>  Generally pretty easy to find it after the fact.
<madodel>  How do you test them then?
<ThetaBand>  Are there any soundcards that have Crystal's PCI chips on them? Last I checked, there were none.
<JoeNord>  Nope - it only means that my answers are not as good on boards as they will be on chips. Fire away!
<KoolAde>  I want to have the same answer as ThetaBand
<JoeNord>  I have several in my office!
<ThetaBand>  not reference boards, real sound cards anyone can buy
<KoolAde>  whose are they
<JoeNord>  Though you're right, all are reference designs.
<JoeNord>  I did some checking on that (today in fact)
<JoeNord>  hoping ot be able to tell you all were to go to buy one.
<JoeNord>  Sad news. Nothing I can announce.
<JoeNord>  THere are board companies out there that have designs in progress.
<ThetaBand>  "designs in progress" - I heard that 9 months ago.
<JoeNord>  I can't really comment on them as there is no guarantee that they will go product or not. You will be
<Longstaff>  i actually have a question about boards....i have a sb16 at the moment and would like to upgrade to a top-of-the-line warp soundcard, but i don't have time for a lot of installation skitterhassles....is there any clear preference?
<JoeNord>  glad to know that it is the OS/2 demand that has them motivated.
<JoeNord>  Heck - we hardly had chips 9 months ago.
<JoeNord>  I updated the latest Crystal ISA installer (common to the PCI) to de-install ALL
<JoeNord>  sound devices before installing Crystal.
<JoeNord>  This pretty much solves the upgrade propcess.
<ThetaBand>  what version of the installer has that feature? It's not 2.07, is it?
<JoeNord>  I filtered the MMPM2.INI file - you'll have to handle config.sys by hand.
<JoeNord>  Don't know. Hang on. Gotta check notes.
<JoeNord>  2.08.
<ThetaBand>  I thought GENIN was capable of removing lines from CONFIG.SYS?
<JoeNord>  Ooops. Haven't shipped it yet.
<JoeNord>  Note to self - update ISA drivers on WWW.....
<JoeNord>  GenIn can handle removing lines from config.sys, but
<JoeNord>  only lines that it is going to add.
<JoeNord>  It doesn't handle taking out non-related stuff.
<ThetaBand>  eh? you mean it can only replace or add, but not delete?
<JoeNord>  Right - everything is an upgrade. You get another audiod evice.
<ThetaBand>  but you can delete entries in MMPM2.INI, right?
<JoeNord>  So, if SB16 is installed and you install Crystal ISA driver, you then
<JoeNord>  have two MMPM/2 "devices".
<ThetaBand>  so is this just a limition of GENIN?
<JoeNord>  Nope.
<JoeNord>  MMPM2.INI is cached in RAM by MMPM/2 and anything you do in an editor
<JoeNord>  will get un-done when the system shuts down.
<ThetaBand>  I know that
<JoeNord>  You can edit it when MMPM/2 is not loaded.... Un-reliable..
<ThetaBand>  what I mean is the new "delete all" feature apparently only works on MMPM2.INI
<JoeNord>  I automated it.
<ThetaBand>  but not on CONFIG.SYS - sounds like a GENIN limitation.
<JoeNord>  Does that work on Warp 3 FP 26?
<JoeNord>  Retorical question. If no, it is useless for a general install program.
*  ThetaBand is confused
<JoeNord>  But - requirements for Warp 3 support are diminishing.
<JoeNord>  Overall, minstall has done pretty well. Over-install has been a install weakness.
<JoeNord>  As far as I know, Crystal Semi is the only outfit that can cleanly handle overinstall.
<JoeNord>  My competitors will see this as a personal challenge!!!!
*  BeazDbear has 3.0 32+ on 3 machines
<JoeNord>  I'm thinking bigger numbers.
<JoeNord>  30,000
<JoeNord>  We still fully support Warp 3
<madodel>  Have you done any testing with Aurora and these new drivers and install?
<JoeNord>  Aurora?
<KoolAde>  oh boy JoeNord has been in a hybernation :)
<Longstaff>  is the lotus deal with realaudio going to get us java realaudio support, or warp realaudio support?
<Swanee>  JoeNord: And have there been any differences (aurora and Warp 4 installs for example)
<madodel>  OS/2 Warp server for eBusiness, AKA Warp Server 5, AKA Aurora
<JoeNord>  I've never fully understood why people want audio on network servers. No matter.
<madodel>  some people are forced to use servers as desktops
<JoeNord>  I have been asked to fix problems and have updated drivers for IBM (Austin group) in support of OS/2 V5 or what ever the name is.
<KoolAde>  heh maybe the cat is out of the bag :)
<JoeNord>  When I was the development lead for OS/2 device drivers (IBM days) - I had a vender make a similar statment to me regarding REcoRD>
<JoeNord>  He said - "implment record" Why? Nobody records....
<JoeNord>  Guess voice-type has changed that.
<ThetaBand>  Record IS important on a server - that's how internet radio works
<JoeNord>  Working Full duplex is finally a requirement.
<ThetaBand>  The server could also be a webcam or an MP3 server
<JoeNord>  You guys should love the mixer stuff I put into the PCI driver.
*  ThetaBand notes that someone recently uploaded a streaming MP3 server for OS/2 to hobbes.nmsu.edu
<madodel>  I see there is now an MP3 server ported to OS/2
<JoeNord>  You can control just about anything on the AC97 mixer. Everything is fixable via .INI for all the places that
<JoeNord>  me and your board venders have messed it up.
<JoeNord>  Streaming MP3 - Neato. Got music rights for that? ;-)
<madodel>  AC97 mixer?
<ThetaBand>  the idea is that you create your own MP3 audio on the fly
<ThetaBand>  and it streams that audio to the internet.
<JoeNord>  Now I'm not the one in hibernation.
<JoeNord>  AC97 is good stuff.
<JoeNord>  Defined by Intel as the Analog to Digital and D/A side of a DSP audio solution.
<ThetaBand>  AC97 has fewer mixing options that the Mode 3 ISA chips.
<JoeNord>  Separate chip - many available implementations. All register compatible - barding super/subsets.
<KoolAde>  how does that effect an os/2 user without a decent sound card to buy PCI style
<JoeNord>  Because right now - it is really hard to purchase a motherboard that doesn't have audio on it.
<JoeNord>  And - it will likely have an AC97 chip on it - only you probably won't know abou it unless you check reall carefully.
<JoeNord>  Since most future sound solutions will be based on AC97 mixer architecture, I went to a fair ammount of trouble to make the mixer fully configurable in the PCI driver set.
<JoeNord>  I plan to steal the code for subsequent designs.
<ThetaBand>  including support for non-Crystal AC97 parts?
<JoeNord>  Not likely.
<ThetaBand>  AC97 supports vendor ID's in the register set - I assume the crystal drivers check those?
<JoeNord>  I know who pays me....
<JoeNord>  You assume correctly.
<JoeNord>  Hardware wise however the AC97 chips plug into digital end of puzzle in Intel defined manner. Chips are conceptually pluggable.
<JoeNord>  In reality, people buy them in sets.
*  KoolAde is confused , if all this is being added to a PCI drivers when there are no PCI Sound Cards :?
<JoeNord>  Thought we covered that.... ;)
<JoeNord>  The market for Add-In boards is really small.
<JoeNord>  Its gotta be on the motherboard or it isn't huge.
<JoeNord>  That does mean though that there is a new market - fringe market.
<JoeNord>  Some people are looking to fill that market.
<JoeNord>  Will they find it sufficiently profitable to build boards?
<JoeNord>  Don't know - I'm a programmer, not marketeer...
<JoeNord>  I can tell them though that my drivers will work.
<JoeNord>  Still, I work for a chip company. We ship 30 Million Sound chips / year. Or something like that. Don't quote me....Check Mercury Research for numbers.
<JoeNord>  Should we hit a new topic?
<ThetaBand>  Can you talk about your biggest customers?
<ThetaBand>  who is demanding OS/2 support?
<JoeNord>  Dell, Intel, IBM, HP.
<ThetaBand>  So these companies actually test their systems with OS/2?
<JoeNord>  OS/2 fans: All of the above. Throw in Compaq and anyone else moving lots of equipment.
*  KoolAde now I am really confused :)
<JoeNord>  We make lots of sales that are very much supported by the quality of our OS/2 driver support.
<JoeNord>  Remember - just because you
<JoeNord>  can't find someone at these companies who can talk intelligently about OS/2 does
<ThetaBand>  Which drivers support the MMPM/2 mixer API?
<JoeNord>  not mean that they don't mandate quality OS/2 drivers for their suppiers (me).
<JoeNord>  Re: MMPM/2 Mixer API.
<JoeNord>  Only the Turtle Beach Tropez sample driver on the DDK.
<JoeNord>  Probably also the ESS stuff - mixer side of it written by same person.
<ThetaBand>  So if the Crystal drivers don't support the API, how can you do mixing?
<JoeNord>  I actually implmented some other APIs on request from someone.
<JoeNord>  The APP suffered from great troubles.
<JoeNord>  Wanna know the full story.
<JoeNord>  ?
<ThetaBand>  Sure
<JoeNord>  The long and short of it - okay, just hte long.
<JoeNord>  The APIs were implemented many moons ago. The driver side under my direction in fact, so I have no one to blaim but myself.
<JoeNord>  But - there was a chicken & egg problem.
<JoeNord>  With no drivers - there would be no app.....
<JoeNord>  Finally, the APP APIs were written and were shipped in Warp 3 as was required to pull off drivers.
<JoeNord>  Gotta hvae the API in the OS or the driver venders won't support the APIs.
<JoeNord>  BUT! The APP was not part of the OS. ship the APP.
<JoeNord>  So, the OS (Warp 3) went out the door with these new APIs - with no application -- and no drivers.
<JoeNord>  But, this should get it started.
<JoeNord>  That was the thought.
<ThetaBand>  I heard there are bugs in the API and the implementation that result in this whole thing being worthless.
<JoeNord>  Unfortunately, the APIs were busted, so it all became close to worthless.
<madodel>  Is that when IBM abandoned Warp as a multi-media platform?
<JoeNord>  Nope.
<JoeNord>  Did they?
<ThetaBand>  Some people think so.
<JoeNord>  BTW - The API is still busted. Without changes at ring-3, master volume won't work.
<JoeNord>  My solution was to conclude it all to be for not and push on with the APIs that worked.
<ThetaBand>  What API's?
<JoeNord>  The "OLD" ones. AUDIODD APIs from OS/2 2.0 (MMPM/2 release 1.0). AUDIO_IOCTL_CHANGE.
<ThetaBand>  ugh - those don't provide anywhere near the same level of control as the Mixer API's
<JoeNord>  Very true.
<ThetaBand>  what if some third party created a replacement VSD that fixed all those API's?
<JoeNord>  The only missing piece though is the control of the mixer entrypoints that MMPM/2 doesn't address.
<ThetaBand>  AND provided an app - would Crystal be willing to add support for those API's?
<JoeNord>  I have coded IOCTL support (on request from some guy with a radio-tuner program). Don't know if he ever did anything with it.
<JoeNord>  Anyone wanna know the IOCTLS? If yes, send me a note off-line.
<ThetaBand>  you mean you've added mixer ioctls that are not in the MMPM spec?
<JoeNord>  Can I re-distribute the app?
<JoeNord>  Re: IOCTLs outside spec: Yes.
<ThetaBand>  would being able to redistribute the app royalty-free be a requirement?
<JoeNord>  YEs. And translated to 13 languages.
<Skip^>  OH!
<JoeNord>  Life sucks when reality hits.
<JoeNord>  The beauty of drivers is the lack of translation requirements.
<ThetaBand>  hmmm ... translating into 13 languages would be very difficult
<JoeNord>  Well, US English, French, German, Spanish and Japanese should really be enough.
<ThetaBand>  the royalty-free part would probably be doable only if this version worked with the Crystal drivers exclusively.
<JoeNord>  complexity of the fancy API and did I mention that they are based on the AC97 mixer architecutre.
<ThetaBand>  Well, Theta Band Software is interested in taking the first steps to creating a unified mixer API
<ThetaBand>  however, we have a solution in mind that can overcome driver-specific API's and make them generic
<JoeNord>  That's right, the ISA driver set implements the API to look like the PCI part. Bazaar, but on-purpose.
<ThetaBand>  the ISA parts implement an AC97-compatible mixer api?
<JoeNord>  Don't worry too much about the device-specific part. That can probably be handled. All that is necessary is publishing the APIs - wihich I can handle.
<JoeNord>  5 years later, perhaps I will actually succeed at an OS/2 mixer!
<ThetaBand>  so in other words, even though the ISA parts have a superior mixer, the driver "dumbs" it down to the PCI level?
<JoeNord>  Bingo!
<JoeNord>  Gotta love the API portablity.
<ThetaBand>  well, it is important
<ThetaBand>  but there is still no app, right?
<JoeNord>  I live mostly at ring-0.
<ThetaBand>  Does the Mode 2 driver also have this AC97-compatible mixer API?
<JoeNord>  Nope. Mode 2 (1.xx) driver is pretty much maintenance mode.
<JoeNord>  If takes off on the Mode 3 driver (2.xx) I could add it to the old prety easily.
<ThetaBand>  Can you tell us what percentage of new chip sales are ISA and what are PCI?
<JoeNord>  I'd be happy to, but I don't know the answers (in firm numbers).
<ThetaBand>  to the nearest 20%?
<JoeNord>  ISA is ramping down, PCI is ramping up.
<JoeNord>  All new designs are PCI.
<ThetaBand>  but you're still selling an appreciable number of ISA chips?
<JoeNord>  I'd better not guess. Don't wanna miss it badly.
<JoeNord>  Yes, millions every month.
<JoeNord>  But quanity is shifting to PCI.
<ThetaBand>  Are all of these mode 3 chips?
<JoeNord>  Almost. Mode 2 parts are pretty old - but, people are still buying them.
<JoeNord>  Remember that even though the version 1.xx driver was once upon a time used for the CS4236B, 7B and 8B, those parts are really mode 3.
<JoeNord>  The 1.xx driver works on them only due to backward compatibility in the hardware.
<JoeNord>  The new ISA parts drop the backward compatibilty in favor of cost. These REQUIRE mode 3 aware driver support.
<JoeNord>  So, the version 2.xx driver works on CS4236B, CS4237B, Cs4238B and CS4235, CS4239.
<JoeNord>  The mode 2 driver is only needed for the CS4248, CS4231 and CS4232 and the CS4236(not-B).
<JoeNord>  We're off topic. The bottom line is that a mixer API for the version 1.xx driver isn't critical.
<JoeNord>  Most everything is handled by the 2.xx driver (mode 3 ISA) and 3.00 (PCI) driver.
*  Swanee is lost. He sees his chip mentioned but has no idea what to make of all this.
<Swanee>  :)
<ThetaBand>  swanee: have you look at Timur's Crystal Semi and OS/2 page?
<JoeNord>  Chips is chips. Boards are a weird concept to me..... ;-)
<JoeNord>  Yup. Not lately though.
<Swanee>  I have and dii see what mode mine was but do not remember much after making some decisions based on it
<Swanee>  dii=did
<JoeNord>  If bought it in last 4 years, its mode 3.
<JoeNord>  ( probably )
<Swanee>  CS4236? Mode 3?
<JoeNord>  Sometimes chips are labeled CS4236 that are acutally "CS4236B".
<Swanee>  CS4236 PNP is what my docs said
<JoeNord>  If wanna know for sure, load my version 2.xx driver and turn on "/v"
<JoeNord>  switch to the CWAUDIO.sys device driver (verbose). It will tell you what you have.
<JoeNord>  Docs tend to be generic.
<JoeNord>  Did I mention 13 languages?
<JoeNord>  Lately I notice that the PC world is getting even smarter and not including docs at all.......
<Skip^>  What about CS4231A???????
<JoeNord>  I've considered writing a utility to tell people what chip they have. Haven't gotten around to it.
<Swanee>  JoeNord: Just added "/V" to it in my config. I'll know next time I reboot. (that may be a while it's been about a week since the last reboot)
<JoeNord>  Driver does the job with /V.
<JoeNord>  CS4236B has been a very successful part.
<JoeNord>  Okay, what else is up?
<JoeNord>  Mixer sounds pretty well killed.
<JoeNord>  Warp 3 is done.
<Swanee>  JoeNord: Did we cover you questions you got ahead of time?
<JoeNord>  Mode2/Mode3 done and lots of people looking for a PCI add-in card.
<JoeNord>  Nope. I have a few queued up. We should probably document them for the log.
<JoeNord>  Here goes.
<JoeNord>  IBM Aptiva with Crystal Semi ISA and PCI - Can't hear nothin.
<JoeNord>  Solution: Motherboard defaults to muting everything.
<JoeNord>  Unmute via "/XCTRL0:1 /XCTRL1:1" command line parms to CWAUDIO.sys.
<JoeNord>  For the record, XCTRL0 is "mute all" and XCTRL1 is "mute subwoffer".
<JoeNord>  Hardware pins default to zero which on this system is "muted".
<JoeNord>  List of sound cards with links:
<JoeNord>  I don't have a list.
<JoeNord>  Might be able to get Timur Tabi to update his Crystal page for it. Would make his life easier if folks send him details on their boards.
<JoeNord>  ( yes, I just bombarded Timur with mail )
<mandie>  I'm surprised that he's not here tonight
<JoeNord>  Probably shoudn't send info unless he posts a request for it on his web site. I'll givem him a nude.
<JoeNord>  Yes, that is curious. He is the one who introduced me to Judy.
<mandie>  as in nudge?
<mandie>  <--Judy
<JoeNord>  Yeeaaa..!
<Swanee>  "I'll givem him a nude"? What kind of relationship did you guys have? :-)
<JoeNord>  Ooooppsss
<Projects>  I'll take that nude...
<mandie>  hehe
<Swanee>  LOL
<JoeNord>  Not that close I can assure you.
<mandie>  LOL
<JoeNord>  He's a good fellow. Even if he did quit working at Crystal.
<Swanee>  Maybe Joe meant a statue like "Venus de Milo"
<JoeNord>  He's still a fan though. If run into him ask him about checking in OS/2 PCI driver files.
<JoeNord>  Guaranteed to be good for entertainment.
<Swanee>  hehe
<Sector>  Especially if you run into him nude
<JoeNord>  What chat-room am I in?
<JoeNord>  I must have clicked on the wrong box.......
<JoeNord>  Okay gang. I think we're getting close to the end here. I have enjoyed this.
<JoeNord>  On mixer - send me a note at nord@crystal.cirrus.com.
<Swanee>  JoeNord: I've enjoyed this too Joe. I think I may have even learned something. I'm glad to see someone like you at the helm.
<JoeNord>  Writing driver is fun. Especially fun when the end-game works. We have been pretty successful.
<JoeNord>  All done?
<Swanee>  And we are indebted. Crystal seems to give the best support for sound chips on OS/2.
*  madodel0 has two crystal chip built-ins. Never again to SB
<JoeNord>  Thank you.
<JoeNord>  Good night everyone.
<Swanee>  Thanks for coming us Joe.
<Swanee>  Thanks for coming Joe.
<Swanee>  LOL
<donh>  was it mentioned where to get add-on crystal-based boards that actyually work?
<Swanee>  BIG MISTAKE! Always reread before sending after editing your post! LOL
<donh>  -y >
<Swanee>  madodel: I think I'll furnish the log tonight so I can adit that gaff out. :-)
<Swanee>  adit=edit
<donh>  and that one, too
<Projects>  Swanee's going to audit us?
<madodel>  Is it me or is WEBBnet havng some problems tonight?
*  Sector thinks it's all madodel (other then his modem disconnecting his connection has been fine)
<Swanee>  Projects: Swanee doesn't audit, the IRS audits. I might adit or even edit but not audit. :)
<madodel0>  Both my sessions keep lagging and my server keeps spliting
<Swanee>  madodel: Webbnet IS having problems. Look what it has done to my spelling and grammer.
<Swanee>  :)
<Sector>  Could be general internet slugishness
<Projects>  hehe