SpeakUp with Sundial Systems from 03/05/2001

<MADodel Shall we get started, or should we wait a little bit more?
<Randell Rollin and I are it for Sundial tonight, so it's up to you.
<MADodel OK, then let's start.
<Randell Great!
<MADodel VOICE would like to welcome the guys from Sundial Systems'
<MADodel Randell: Would you like to take it now
<Randell Well, we aleady let the cat out of the bag a bit by annoucning the topic for tonite's chat...
<Randell It's Junk Spy 2.0...
<Randell That's something we haven't really talked about publically anywhere before.
<Randell (Another VOICE first!)
<Randell Well, let's see...
<Randell We plan to deliver 2.0 in 2003...
<Randell No, just kidding.
<MADodel :-)
<rollin Had me worried.
<Randell This is one time when we have actually gotten WAY down the pike before we started talking about a new version...
*  Sector notes if a certain other company thought that way they might actually meet a target date for once
<Randell We've actually completed our first round of external testing on 2.0...
<Randell And are about to enter the second round.
<MADodel How have you kept it a secret this long?
<Randell It's not a major makeover...
<Randell That would be the wrong thing for Junk Spy since everyone has told us that the 1.0 design was the right way to do things.
<Randell But we're never satisfied.
<Randell Rollin and I will talk about some of the new features in detail...
<Randell but as usual for one of our "previews", we're prepared a summary for you to take a look at.
<Randell So, if you want the overview NOW, point your browser at (assuming I don't make a typo in the URL):
<Randell http://www.sundialsystems.com/junkspy/junkspy20preview.html
<Randell You'll see a bunch of new features that make the product better.
<Randell One being the Exeception Wizard... that we'll return to later.
<Randell The other important thing, an I know this can be a touchy subject in an OS/2 chat...
<Randell is support for Windows.
<Randell Now, don't throw too many rotton tomatoes at me...
<XRange season not in for tomatoes
<Randell This is NOT a statement about OS/2 and our commitment to OS/2 remains as strong as it has ever been.
<Klaus Randell: that's o.k. - we are no religious fanatics ( i hope ) ;-)
<Randell But Junk Spy is such a unique and useful product that we feel all those poor soles on Windows deserve a chance...
<Randell to see what REAL software can do!
<Randell And, the fact is, that a number of our OS/2 JunkSpy customers have asked us for a Windows version.
<Randell (Gee, I never thought the day would come when I publically said Sundial was doing a Windows product.)
<MADodel Is this a one time thing? Or might there eventually be a Mesa 2 for windoze as well?
*  Sector didn't either
<Randell OK, on with the show...
<Randell (Madodel, we aren't makeing any statements about other possible Windows products at this time.)
<Randell (We are viewing JunkSpy as a way to test the waters in the Window market because it doesn't really compete with other Windows products.)
<Randell In Junk Spy 2.0, everything you like about the way it detects and filters junk email is preserved.
<Projects (just because you have () around your text, doesn't mean the rest of us can't see it) :-)
<WyldFire Projects: Shhh! There's some good dirt in there! =)
<Projects hehehe
<Randell (Yes, Projects, I know... but it's parenthetical to what we REALLY want to accomplish here.)
<Projects (oh, OK)
<Randell What we've done is make the product even more effective and even easier to use.
<Randell For instance, those of you that have looked at the product (or have it) know that it uses...
<Randell two "external" (ie, not maintained by us) databases of internet addresses that are know to send...
<Randell junk mail or to relay junk mail. These are the RBL and RSS "black hole" lists.
<Randell Well, for 2.0, we've added support for the ORBS list -- kinda a "white hole".
<Randell What ORBS does is look for possible spam relay site BEFORE they are used by spammers.
<Randell The main reason they do this is to convince sites to tighten their security.
<Randell But some sites never do... and will eventually be found by the spammers.
<Randell So, Junk Spy 2.0 now can use that list to declare as junk mail any mail that passes thru those
<Randell sites... this can catch new junk mail campaigns far before they get "trapped" by the RBL/RSS black holes.
<Randell But, you know, one person's junk can be another person's treasures.
<Randell Something like Junk Spy has a much harder time than, say, an AntiVirus program.
<Randell That's because it's seldom a black-and-white issue as to whether a piece of mail is junk or not --- just like with snail mail.
<Randell What Junk Spy does is classify things as best it can.
<Randell It's bound to get things wrong some of the time (though our target is to make that number as small as possible)
<Randell (and we've generally suceeeded with that).
<Randell The way you make your own Junk Spy do an even better job for you...
<Randell is to "train" it to not classify some mail as junk by adding "exceptions" that allow message to pass thru.
<Randell What Junk Spy 2.0 does is make that training easier.
<Randell That's what the Exception Wizard is all about.
<Randell So let me turn it over to Rollin to tell you a little about the Wizard (since it's his creation).
<rollin Thanks!
<rollin The idea behind the Wizard is to guide the user through the process of creating an exception.
<rollin We've found that users are aware of exceptions, but didn't know if they should use a global exception or a local exception, and what to use as the exception.
<rollin So the Exception Wizard looks at the message in question (via the clipboard), and asks several questions of the user.
<rollin Using the answers to the questions (and even a suggestion or two), the wizard creates the exception for you.
<rollin So, you never even have to look at the exception dialog (if you don't want to).
<rollin We've found that the increased use of exceptions (only a few) make Junk Spy even more effective (by eliminating false positives).
<rollin Has everyone looked at the preview page? Any questions so far?
<Blackbird sorry I'm late....had to do supper..
<MADodel I see it says it will work with almost all POP3 mailers. Can this work with IMAP as well?
<Sector Hello Blackbird
<Blackbird Is there a URL that I missed....Hi Sector...long time
<Randell http://www.sundialsystems.com/junkspy/junkspy20preview.html
<Blackbird thanks
<rollin IMAP is not supported yet. It's significantly different thant POP3, so it will take some major changes. But it's pretty high on the feature list as far as I'm concerned.
<Klaus I assume you won't support Lotus Notes.. do you?
<Randell Yes, we hope to support IMAP in the future, but it's not a 2.0 or 2.x thing at this point.
<Randell Ah, the Notes question...
<rollin You can use Notes as a POP3 client, but we don't have Agent-level support. It's in the same ballpark as IMAP. Takes big changes, but pretty important.
<Klaus rollin: I use notes with a domino-server, so going down to pop3 isn't verry clever for me *g*
<rollin Klaus, I understand. Do you use the OS/2 Notes client or the Windows client?
<MADodel Or the windoze client on OS/2? :-)
<Klaus rollin: notes 4.6.7 client for OS/2...
<rollin Noted. We'll add your vote to the Notes feature :)
<Klaus rollin: just played with odin and the notes5(win) version.. but still prefer working software over fancy soft ;-))
<Klaus rollin: thanks ;-))
<Randell I should emphasize that one of the goals for 2.0...
<rollin In addition to the major features Randell has gone over, we've added many other smaller ones. One of the favorites is "marking via subject"....
<Randell was to be absolutely sure that our POP3 support was as rock solid as it could be.
<XRange Security Settings (Restrictive & Most Restrictive) Whats the differents?
<rollin It was actually in an early beta of 1.0, the subject is Prepended witht he word JunkMail. It makes it easy to visually pick out which messages Junk Spy has marked as junk.
<rollin XRange, in 1.0, Junk Spy would accept connections from all TCP/IP interfaces and then...
<rollin shut down the connection if it wasn't from the local computer.
<rollin While it's 100% secure, some people didn't like it because the various software that reports if your computer is "secure" would report that port 110 was open. With Most Restrictive we only listen on the local/loopback interface this never accepting connections over the lan or ppp interface.
<XRange ok
<Randell XRange, that's one of those things that have been a pain to document in 2.0...
<Randell without getting into details that would confuse most users...
*  Sector doubts that those "most" users are here... ;>
<Randell that's why we settled on the terms "Restrictive" and "Most restricive" since we figure...
<Randell the average Windows user of JunkSpy isn't going to even have a clue...
<Randell what a "loopback interface" is...
<Randell let along what port 110 has to do with anything.
<Randell Rollin, I think you were starting to talk about Mark Subject Field... did you get done with that?
<rollin Yes, I did. There are other features too....
<rollin One of the common complaints was that for very large messages, it looked like Junk Spy was just sitting there or the email program was stuck.
<rollin If a message is sufficently large, the chance of it being junk is almost nil. So we provide an option to send the message immediately if it is over a certain threshold.
<MADodel Then it may be a virus. I noticed Junk SPy 2.0 will play nice with Norton AV. Which processes the message first?
<rollin Madodel, you can actually configure it either way, but we document NAV putting NAV first since it's more consistent with their documentation and default settings.
<rollin Randell mentioned that we were ready for the next round of testing....
<Sector wb os2r
<os2r Thanks sector...machine locked up....
<rollin We still are looking for a few additional testers. If you are interested in testing Junk Spy for OS/2 or Windows drop a note to junkspy@sundialsystems.com.
<XRange hi os2r
<os2r hi XRange
<Randell And let me reinforce that...
<os2r has price been mentioned yet? will there be an upgrade price
<Randell we do want some additional testers for this next round.
<Randell No, we haven't mentioned price or availability.
<Sector Note dropped
<os2r thanks
<rollin os2r, we have not made any announcements about pricing yet. Just like product information, we don't like to preannounce pricing either :)
<Randell You can expect those annoucements to be relatively soon, but I won't give you specific dates or numbers yet.
<Randell I will say, however, that for those of you that already have Junk Spy 1.0...
<XRange Additional Formats For User and Server Information about @ ?
<MADodel Will both the windows and OS/2 versions be licensed together? Or will they be separate products?
<Randell it will NOT be a free upgrade. However, it the upgrade price will include...
<Randell a period of continued updates to the detection datebase...
<os2r I have to say that having used it since it came out, it's been the first program I ever used that does everything I need........and does it well.....
<rollin XRange, some programs (Netscape) filter everything after the @ in the assumption that the user shouldn't have entered their email address. So now we support / as a seperator as well as one other character to make Netscape happy (or ignorant).
<Sector Some email clients (ie: Netscape) don't pass the @, so other characters can be used in place of this. (At least that's my interpretation)
<rollin os2r, thanks!!!
<Randell os2r, thank you!
<os2r u r welcome....just keep up the good work!
<Randell Those things like the / vs @ support...
<Randell are part of our commitment to make the POP3 support just as rock solid as possible for 2.0.
<Randell And to try to support every possible POP3 client program in 2.0...
<Randell And, so far, we haven't met a POP3 program that Junk Spy doesn't like (with these enhancements).
<Randell madodel, I think you had a question back there that we didn't answer.
<MADodel Will both the windows and OS/2 versions be licensed together? Or will they be separate products?
<Randell Ah, yes.
<Randell While we haven't made the absolutely final decision...
<Randell our plan at this point is for your Junk Spy license to be "platform independent"...
<Projects cool... a Java license :)
<XRange Exception Wizard does it popup at will ?
<Randell meaning that you can use it with on any system...
<Randell as long as you don't try to use it on multiple systems at the same time
<rollin Xrange, no, on demand. Basically you copy a message to the clipboard and then say "go".
<Randell (which we trust you on since we can't actually enfoce that).
<Randell The packaging may be specific to a given platform.
<Randell But the license you get would work with either packaging.
<Randell The downloadable product images will definitely be separate.
<Randell Did that answer it?
<MADodel If the packages are separate, then one has to purchase both.
<Randell Well, no.
<Randell You purchase one.
<rollin Packaging was probably the wrong word. How about installer.
<Randell You can then download the other the specifics for the other platform...
<Randell Ok, yes, Installer is probably better.
<Sector Let's see, you download whichever platform you need and are free to use the license for a different platform if you download that platforms version.
<MADodel OK, that is clearer
<Randell Sector, yes.
*  madodel only runs Os/2 and one lone IMac anyway :-)
<Randell Sorry, no IMac version (yet?)
*  Projects only does email on OS/2
<XRange is Junk Spy v2 java based since it's for more then one platform?
<rollin XRange, no it is native to each platform....
<Randell As Rollin said, it's a native app in each case.
<rollin From the beginning we developed it with the possibility of moving it to other platforms. The "Port" to Windows was relatively minimal. The design has allowed us to take advantage of platform specific features and still be portable.
<Randell On OS/2 it looks and feels like an OS/2 app, on Windows, it looks and feels like a Windows app (but performs better than the average Windows ap).
<rollin Believe it or not, it is possible to create a Windows app that takes 2 megs of disk space!
<Randell No, not possible!
*  XRange was just curious
<XRange running out haed drive space here.. :)
<rollin Our documentation is bigger than the program itself (for both OS/2 and Windows).
<Randell On Windows, for instance, your primary access to Junk Spy is from a TaskBar icon.
<Klaus rollin: cool - reminds me on tedit ;-))
<rollin Good!
<Klaus Randell: will you create a Windget for X-Workplace's XCenter?
<rollin Klaus, we'll add it to the feature request list. I'll have to look into it.
<rollin Other questions?
<Randell For the heck of it, I just checked the current numbers (as of the current build)...
<Randell and, granted, the installers are very different...
<Randell but the installable image file, including documentation...
<Sector Not that I need it, but any plans for a server version where you could have it running on one computer and access it from multiple computers¨
<Randell is about 1.1 M for OS/2 and 2.1 M for Windows.
<rollin Sector, yes that is out a little bit farther on our road-map.
<Randell Sector, officially, NO COMMENT.
<rollin Randell, most of that difference is the compression in ZIP vs the self extracting installer.
<rollin Sector, I mean NO COMMENT :)
<MADodel rollin: can we quote you on that "no comment"?
<MADodel :-)
<rollin No, of course not!
<Randell Any more questions? Or is it time to head toward tonight's trivia question...
<Hoss sounds good.
<Projects one quick question... if junk spy's running, it doesn't do anything unless the email program calls it, right?
<rollin Projects, yes. It's basically waiting to be driven by the email program.
<rollin More questions are welcome too, we're not rushing off.
*  XRange not good at answers how about we shoot Archery for it... :)
<Hoss LOL, get 'em Xrange.
*  Sector puts an apple on XRange's head
<Randell XRange, tonight's question has an "easy" answer...
<XRange rofl
<Blackbird I'll try my shotgun instead..
<Randell In fact, you've already seen the answer tonight if you've been paying close attention...
<Randell (as everybody hastily scrolls back)
<Blackbird But if we came in late...???
<Projects damn, and i was off installing junk spy :-(
<Randell Ok than...
*  Hoss kept the www log off tonight. ;-)
<Randell First, let mre repeat that we are still looking for testers to participate in the next round of testing before we "go public" about 2.0.
*  Hoss volunteers.
*  Projects already volunteered
<Randell And, to be honest, we really would like a few people who can comparatively test it on both OS/2 and Windows.
<XRange sign ........up here
<Sector Hoss send your application to junkspy@sundialsystems.com
<os2r what version of windows?
*  Projects doesn't have an emailer on his NT box
<Randell So if you do POP3 email on both platforms, PLEASE let us know by sending a note to junkspy@sundialsystems.com.
<Hoss darn it, no win boxes.
<Randell Projects, you don't have Netscape or Outlook?
<Projects Hoss is lucky :-)
<rollin os2r, anything but Windows 3.1
<Blackbird Ive got an OS/2 machine and the wifey uses that OTHER stuff...and it's connected with Injoy Gateway
<XRange sig XRange up
<Rat-Salad wwe have a win2k box here
*  Sector is also window less
<Randell Randel agrees Hoss is lucky...
<Chrissy but I dont boot it :)
<Rat-Salad hehe
<Projects Randell: Outlook, never. Netscape, only because I had to install it to debug my mother's problem... I don't use it though.
<XRange got win nt but don't pull mail with win here
<Projects same
<Randell Any more questions/comments before "quiz time"?
<WarpedOS2 Is this only for junk spy?
<XRange os/2 mr/2 ice pulls mail here
<Randell Tonight we're giving away a copy of Junk Spy 2.0 (when available) or an upgrade (if the winner already has 1.x).
<Randell The "standard" VOICE rules for the participation in the giveaway apply.
<rollin os2r, no new news.
<Randell (Don't ask me what those are, we've tried to figure that out many times.)
<WarpedOS2 will there be any updated filters for your spreadsheet..?
<Randell Basically, first person to POST the correct answer to the group wins.
<Randell Private replies will be ignored.
*  Sector notes that rule was made for him...
<Randell (Decisions of the judges are final, not resposible for posting delays, etc, etc.)
<Projects hehehe
*  XRange drows bow back
<Randell Ok, quiet please.
<Sector Drum Roll
<Randell Since Randell installed Junk Spy 1.0 on his "production" machine at work...
<Randell it has processed a total of 12,409 email messages.
<Randell What percentage of those did Junk Spy determine to be junk?
<XRange >>>>--------> and misses......
<Blackbird 38%
<Skip 15%
<Projects 92%
<XRange 25%
<Klaus 42%
<rollin Wow, an easy question turned hard!
<Randell Any more guesses, closest answer wins. Remeber, I said that you've seen the answer if you were paying attension.
<MADodel 26%
<Randell (No, if you've guessed, you can't change your answer.)
<os2r 33%
<Randell Polls close in 30 secs.
<Randell The correct answer is 21%.
<Randell That means XRange gets it!
<os2r congrats XRange
<Randell If you looked at the Preview page, the picture of Junk Spy's main window was taken off that machine.
<Hoss Congratulations Xrange.
<Projects Randell obviously doesn't have my email account... :)
<Skip Yeah, congrats. (beat me by a crummy 1%)
<Klaus Randell: uh damn it's in the 1st screenshot of your website ;-)
<rollin The bonus question (worth nothing): how many does randell still need to read or respond to?
<XRange >>>-------> hit
<Projects hahahaha
<Randell Any other Junk Spy users out there want to give their own percentages?
<Skip Show off!!
<XRange i busy in scroll back
*  Projects only just installed Junk Spy... so far, 0% spam
<os2r 322 of 2706 here....
<Randell Bonus, bonus question (worth nothing): what is it on Rollin's test machine where all the Junk mail comes in?
<rollin 51 %
<XRange tahnks Randell
<Randell Projects has the best possible answer... it's all downhill from there.
<Projects Randell: yeah, spam's on the incline :*
<Randell XRange, send a note to junkspy@sundialsystems.com and we'll take care of getting you your copy.
<XRange kool
<Randell Well, that just about wraps it up for tonight folks.
*  Projects turned down a free copy of junk spy 'cause I rarely got any spam... until about a week after I turned down the offer :(
<Randell Let me take a moment, however...
<MADodel Randell and Rollin thank you for coming. Can we look forward to seeing you again in two months?
<Randell To say how said we all are here at Sundail that Dan Casey couldn't be with us tonight. We all will miss him.
<Randell Sorry, (sad) not (said)...
<Skip Amen to that.
<os2r yup....even Warpstock won't be the same without him....
<Randell madodel, thanks for having us and I know Dan is thanking us (whereever he is) as well.
<rollin madodel, at this point yes. We don't have a planned topic, but we'll look forward to it.
<Randell Yes, we'll be back in two months... May I guess that is.
<MADodel Yep, looks like May 7th
<Sector Thansk for comming and sharing your time with us
<Randell May 7th it is then!
<Skip Thanks for coming Randell and Rollin.
<rollin Thank you!
<Randell Thanks, everyone, for having us... it's always fun.
<Randell Night!
<rollin If you have any linger questions, drop us a line at junkspy@sundialsystems.com
<Projects g'night Randell/rollin