03-09-98 20:01:59 *** Log Activated #VOICE (E:\INTERNET\GTIRC30\#VOICE.log)
03-09-98 20:02:05 <T-Z> :)
03-09-98 20:02:07 <Nenad> there was some stupid limit in an API call for accessing files
03-09-98 20:02:14 <hrieke> Guess we gotta watch those ampersans
03-09-98 20:02:30 <N-S> ! question per turn, with one followup question allowed.
03-09-98 20:02:35 <os2hq> hey proj.
03-09-98 20:02:48 <Projects> hey os2hq
03-09-98 20:02:48 <T-Z> !=one
03-09-98 20:02:54 <N-S> That should have been 1 question per turn and 1 follow up
03-09-98 20:02:54 <A-G> hehe
03-09-98 20:02:54 <pfitz> how do I turn off all these "joining" messages?
03-09-98 20:03:22 <A-G> pfitz: select to put it to a "special" window... setup in your client..
03-09-98 20:03:36 <PHS> pfitz: Tried SHORT/2 already ? ;-)
03-09-98 20:03:42 <pfitz> phs: not yet
03-09-98 20:04:35 <pfitz> phs: at least, not with input working. It looked great a few days ago only with output
03-09-98 20:05:02 <PHS> pfitz: Input is there. And I did the blinking cursor today ;-)
03-09-98 20:05:23 <Abraxas> Welcome to this special meeting of VOICE
03-09-98 20:05:43 <Abraxas> For tonight's session, the channel will be moderated
03-09-98 20:06:11 <mandie_> Good evening and thanks for coming
03-09-98 20:06:28 <mandie_> I'd like to introduce our guests this evening fro the Win32-OS/2 projects
03-09-98 20:07:10 <mandie_> "Father" of the Project....Sander van Leeuwen
03-09-98 20:07:36 <mandie_> I don't know how he fits in the family but...
03-09-98 20:07:42 <mandie_> Peter Fitzsimmons
03-09-98 20:07:50 <mandie_> and last but not least Timur Tabi
03-09-98 20:07:50 <Projects> hey Dad! :)
03-09-98 20:08:07 <pfitz> mandie_: Also Patrick Haller and Vince Vielhaber
03-09-98 20:08:15 <pfitz> mandie_: PHS and VeV
03-09-98 20:08:21 <mandie_> pftiz: great! thank you
03-09-98 20:08:58 <mandie_> would you each like to tell us a bit about the project...sandervl?
03-09-98 20:09:30 <pfitz> mad: Patrick is doing the console apis (and some other utils), Vince is doing winsock. I've got my hands a little bit into everything. Sander has his hands very dirty everywhere :)
03-09-98 20:09:31 <sandervl> Sure. What do you want to know? Current status or a general introduction?
03-09-98 20:10:02 <mandie_> sandervl: a bit about yourself and how you got the project on the road
03-09-98 20:10:42 <sandervl> Well, I was talking to a few of my (ex) collegues last May about the possibility to run win32 games in Linux and OS/2.
03-09-98 20:11:06 <sandervl> That's how I got the idea to start the project.
03-09-98 20:11:35 <sandervl> After a bit of coding I thought a converter would work well and that turned out to be true. :)
03-09-98 20:11:55 <mandie_> very true...you have sparked alot of interest in the os2 community..thank you
03-09-98 20:12:02 <mandie_> Peter..what is your part in the project
03-09-98 20:12:20 * pfitz originally thought the idea was impossible -- until sander sent me the first version of pe2lx.exe -- I knew it had a chance.
03-09-98 20:12:58 <mandie_> pfitz: so you were the "show me" and now a true believer :)
03-09-98 20:13:06 <pfitz> mandie_: I think I was the second person in the project; I wrote a bunch of utils to automattically write app the apis for open32 supported funcs
03-09-98 20:13:19 <mandie_> Timur ?
03-09-98 20:13:28 <pfitz> mandie_: it wasn't working when I saw it -- but I saw the potential.
03-09-98 20:14:38 <mandie_> VeV..
03-09-98 20:14:52 <pfitz> timur does the web page.
03-09-98 20:15:21 <VeV> Hi. I answered Sander's original call then was out of the loop for awhile trying to get some mail problems straightened out.
03-09-98 20:15:23 <mandie_> ok...how about PHS ?
03-09-98 20:15:32 <mandie_> VeV: ah
03-09-98 20:15:48 <VeV> Now I'm taking care of winsock (soon to be winsock2).
03-09-98 20:16:19 <PHS> Well, I joined the team approx. one month ago. It's already been in the shape you know it now. Almost ...
03-09-98 20:16:58 <mandie_> ok, well thank you all for coming and most of all..thank you for supporting OS/2
03-09-98 20:17:11 <mandie_> I'll turn the session over to the moderators now
03-09-98 20:17:22 <mandie_> I'm sure people are chomping at the bits to talk to you folks :)
03-09-98 20:18:40 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 20:19:17 <N-S> I am N-S, so if your nick starts with N thru S /msg me if you want to ask a question
03-09-98 20:19:22 <hrieke> Okay, this might be a little of topic, but Sander, on your web site, PolSci, you talked about a PCI audio driver
03-09-98 20:19:50 <sandervl> The project started 3 weeks ago and is going pretty well right now.
03-09-98 20:20:11 <hrieke> which card? what features.. I must know...
03-09-98 20:20:24 <hrieke> :)
03-09-98 20:20:36 <sandervl> Can't give you any details other than suggesting you'd visit:http://www.aureal.com/press/1998/020998.htm
03-09-98 20:20:51 <N-S> Can we stay on topic please!
03-09-98 20:21:51 <pfitz> thanks. I hit the wrong button there.
03-09-98 20:21:52 <Nenad> Is it possible at this stage to use RealNetworks' SDK to create simple DLL that can be converted with PE2LX and later used to produce native RealAudio and Video plugins for Netscape/2?
03-09-98 20:22:18 <sandervl> nenad: It might be. Kind of hard to tell without seeing the dlls it generates.
03-09-98 20:22:37 <pfitz> Nenad: someone is working (with some success) on NS/2 plugins.
03-09-98 20:24:07 <N-S> Nenad Do you have a followup?
03-09-98 20:24:22 <Nenad> no, thanks
03-09-98 20:24:44 <N-S> Go ahead OS2HQ
03-09-98 20:25:05 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 20:25:12 <os2hq> Thank you, n-s. As marketing man at VOICE, welcome to all you coders. We appreciate your work very much!
03-09-98 20:25:29 <os2hq> Now, my question has to do with marketing. Obviously, you product is free, and we like that.
03-09-98 20:25:52 <os2hq> But, ideally, we should spread the application not to just current OS/2 users, but to ISVs and potential new OS/2 users.
03-09-98 20:26:07 <N-S> 1 question and 1 followup per turn.
03-09-98 20:26:19 <os2hq> I would like to have VOICE work with you guys to do that, perhaps by coordinating various ISVs with surveyed app needs in the OS/2 user community.
03-09-98 20:26:29 <os2hq> Can we work together with you guys on this?
03-09-98 20:26:46 <sandervl> That's a good idea, but it's too early for this right now.
03-09-98 20:27:11 <sandervl> First the project has to evolve into something more stable and complete.
03-09-98 20:27:11 <os2hq> Okay, fine. But, please stay in touch with us on this. Okay?
03-09-98 20:27:11 <mandie_> os2hq: I believe we can invite them to a seperate session when the time arises...
03-09-98 20:27:30 <os2hq> Okay, good. Looking forward to working with you guys.
03-09-98 20:27:40 <JHP> Where will all this end up? Will we have a way to run Win NT apps or Win 95/98 apps in the future, or what?
03-09-98 20:28:18 <pfitz> jhp: do you mean, will be keep up with changes MS makes?
03-09-98 20:28:18 <sandervl> That's the idea behind this project, yes. Just don't expect to run Office 97 in three months.
03-09-98 20:28:26 <PHS> JHP: Not necessarily. But we're trying to give you the freedom to do so, if you want. Generally, I'd rather recommend native OS/2 applcations.
03-09-98 20:29:12 <JHP> So It might be possible that in the futere we are able to run small apps that everyone has for NT.
03-09-98 20:29:24 <sandervl> Yes.
03-09-98 20:29:29 <JHP> Sounds good.
03-09-98 20:29:39 <JHP> Thanks
03-09-98 20:29:44 <pfitz> jhs: hopefully larger apps too
03-09-98 20:29:56 <JHP> We will see.
03-09-98 20:30:53 <PHS> jhp: It's not really a matter of the "size" of an application. But rather undocumented APIs and some strange coding techniques we bumped into when examining win32 executables.
03-09-98 20:31:32 <pfitz> phs: good point -- quake II isn't small -- but only uses a small part of the win32 api.
03-09-98 20:33:08 <Projects> just a quick question... does an app need to be installed to the native os before conversion, or will an app that apparently just gets copied to the proper dirs convert as well (assuming that I'm correct on the copying...)
03-09-98 20:33:45 <pfitz> Projects: if the program doesn't need any registry entries to run for the first time, the latter would be true.
03-09-98 20:33:54 <sandervl> Projects: Depends on the app. Some programs add a lot of stuff to the registry and depend on it being there.
03-09-98 20:34:38 <pfitz> someone is working on a "registry converter", but I don't know what the status of that is. sander?
03-09-98 20:34:53 <PHS> projects: Currently I'd say you've got to install the application first on Windows since most of the installers use the SHELL32-API. And we're not near to completing this API so far.
03-09-98 20:34:58 <sandervl> pfitz: I don't know. Haven't heard from him in quite a while.
03-09-98 20:35:09 <sandervl> pfitz: Not that it matter with the registry editor in FP5 (and above).
03-09-98 20:35:23 <Projects> ok, thanks then... no followup
03-09-98 20:35:49 <H-M> JE_Hoover, you're up
03-09-98 20:36:05 <JE_Hoover> Thankyou, Are you aware of the website http://www.yoursite.co.uk/os/2/ which has a database of peoples successes and failures using win32os2 / pe2lx? Why couldn't the Win32OS2 project run that site themselves?
03-09-98 20:36:35 <sandervl> We've got plenty of things to do and a buglist isn't top priority.
03-09-98 20:36:51 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 20:36:57 <pfitz> JE_Hoover: I wasn't aware of it. we've been given legal advice not to make any claims about an app without permission from the vendor.
03-09-98 20:37:39 <TimurTabi> je_hoover: I think the consensus is that the best we can do now is to provide a pointer from our web page to yours, with a disclaimer. But I'd need pfitz's and sander's approval before I add that.
03-09-98 20:38:00 <pfitz> JE_Hoover: ID (quake people) said "Nice hack, shouldn't be a problem".
03-09-98 20:38:21 <pfitz> TimurTabi: I saw no link. not yet
03-09-98 20:38:24 <pfitz> saw=say
03-09-98 20:38:31 <sandervl> Timur: No problem with this, so go ahead. (pfitz?)
03-09-98 20:38:38 <TimurTabi> pfitz: like I said, I won't add the link until I get the go-ahead.
03-09-98 20:38:49 <pfitz> sandervl: I think we should ask that lawyer what he thinks first.
03-09-98 20:39:14 <sandervl> pfitz: You're right. I keep forgetting how the legal system in the US is like. :)
03-09-98 20:39:14 <A-G> ok... since the Adobe-Software is the only reason for me to have Windoze on my system i'd like to check if you can imagine that pe2lx will be able to convert PageMaker in a not that fare future ?
03-09-98 20:39:33 <mandie_> good to see that you guys have all *areas* covered :)
03-09-98 20:39:52 <sandervl> A-G: Don't expect it to work within 6 months.
03-09-98 20:39:58 <pfitz> TimurTabi: has anyone sent us photoshop?
03-09-98 20:40:22 <TimurTabi> pfitz: not according to the web page
03-09-98 20:40:29 <TimurTabi> besides, there is a free downloadable demo of photoshop
03-09-98 20:40:32 <PHS> sandervl: Wait until I completed the console ... ;-)
03-09-98 20:40:37 <pfitz> a-g: my "gut" feeling is that Adobe stuff has a better chance at running than, say, MS Word.
03-09-98 20:40:44 <TimurTabi> It has 95% of the functionality, I believe
03-09-98 20:41:19 <TimurTabi> I have a question: what's the status of comctl32.dll? Is it completely translatable now?
03-09-98 20:41:21 <A-G> pfitz: thanx ;) that makes me hope..
03-09-98 20:41:30 <A-G> ok.. next one..
03-09-98 20:41:41 <TDB30_> Now that you have quake working reasonably well, are you going to try for another program? If not, what method are you using to decide the order you are converting api's?
03-09-98 20:41:42 <pfitz> TimurTabi: there seems to be dozens of versions of comctl32.dll.
03-09-98 20:41:48 <sandervl> timur: Same as before. Haven't looked at it lately.
03-09-98 20:42:04 <TimurTabi> well, here's something I want to say to everyone
03-09-98 20:42:33 <TimurTabi> COMCTL32.DLL is a very important DLL for Win32 apps. Until that DLL can be converted 100%, only trivial apps will work.
03-09-98 20:42:41 <pfitz> TDB30_: We are trying lots of programs (not games though).
03-09-98 20:42:46 <sandervl> TDB30_: First we're going to look at comctl32.dll and try to make wordpad and winhlp32 run properly.
03-09-98 20:42:50 <TimurTabi> so there's no point in even TRYING something like Photoshop until COMCTL32.DLL works.
03-09-98 20:43:51 <pfitz> Everytime you install an MS product, it updates a few (if not more) of the system dll's in \windows\system32 -- this REALLY bugs me.
03-09-98 20:43:59 <pfitz> it makes our job hard
03-09-98 20:44:04 <TDB30_> How much work do you expect wordpad is going to be to convert?
03-09-98 20:44:26 <Ice> How are you planning (if you are plannaing) to tackle Direct 3D? That is, converting the calls to glide, to OpenGL, or converting the whole D3D library allowing acceleration with cards other than 3dfx. Also (if you allow me to make another short sentence, for apps that do need registry entries, will just loading the .reg file work? (if the .reg file is well done of course)
03-09-98 20:44:39 <sandervl> TDB30; Hard to say. IT doesn't look that difficult as it already shows it window, but crashes immediately.
03-09-98 20:45:14 <pfitz> ice: we have 2 or 3 DIVE volunteers. I don't see it as a priority. Business apps are more important to the future of OS/2.
03-09-98 20:45:23 <sandervl> Ice: Emulation using Glide. (so Vooodoo only) Don't expect anything soon.
03-09-98 20:45:28 <pfitz> ice: see http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980309S0009
03-09-98 20:45:55 <Ice> sandervl: by that you mean complete emulation or conversion to glide? I'll check out that url
03-09-98 20:46:41 <sandervl> Ice: Emulate as much as possible using the Glide api.
03-09-98 20:46:57 <Ice> ok, thanks
03-09-98 20:47:23 <lmcrae> Hi. Sander sent me the glide.lib but I was unable to use this to DEV with. Must I code in win32 and then pe2lx it (better then nothing)? Maybe a makefile for VAC or something...
03-09-98 20:47:51 <sandervl> lmcrae: No, I've ported a simple Glide sample and it works very well.
03-09-98 20:48:23 <lmcrae> I wanted to take Mesa Voodoo and make it native OS/2. IS this a stretch?
03-09-98 20:48:58 <sandervl> lmcrae: I haven't seen the code so I can't tell.
03-09-98 20:49:25 <lmcrae> Ok I'll let you know...
03-09-98 20:49:29 <lmcrae> thanks
03-09-98 20:49:43 <A-G> as: go!
03-09-98 20:49:45 <as> You mentioned that 99% of win don't work, do you expect this to remain this way when pe2lx is done (i.e only specific ones you checked working), or will most apps work (execpt for 512mb limit problem of course)?
03-09-98 20:50:58 <sandervl> When it's done (which will take quite a while), there should be a certain percentage of apps that will work out of the box.
03-09-98 20:51:12 <sandervl> It's hard to guess what that percentage might be at this stage.
03-09-98 20:51:50 <as> how long do you guess it will take? Also any technical reson other then 512mb limit for some apps to never work?
03-09-98 20:51:51 <PHS> as: There are quite a few things that are simply practically impossible on current OS/2. But since they are rarely used, most of the applications should work fine once we're done with the support DLLs.
03-09-98 20:52:17 <pfitz> as: there may be certain "types" of apps that never work. For example, we may only "stub" in OLE.
03-09-98 20:52:32 <pfitz> as: so if an app is based soley on OLE, it won't work.
03-09-98 20:52:49 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 20:52:50 <pfitz> as: but an app that uses ole (a word pro, for example) might work except for the ole part.
03-09-98 20:53:18 <as> any guess on how long it'll take?
03-09-98 20:53:38 <PHS> as: Worst is some applications use undocumented APIs or have strange expectations about the results they get from the operating systems. Such as Winhlp32 and Pinball that zero out the high 16-bit of HANDLES for example. It's VERY hard to find workarounds for such things.
03-09-98 20:53:54 <Nenad> What is the most time consuming task in your project? Rewriting missing Win32 API functions, making converter to better handle unusual executables or something else?
03-09-98 20:54:02 <PHS> as: For usual applications that follow the API documentation and are properly coded, it's only a matter of time.
03-09-98 20:54:12 <Nenad> And do you have plans to later reimplement some Open32 functions just for performance reasons -- notably screen redraws which are very slow.
03-09-98 20:54:55 <pfitz> Nenad: answering email :)
03-09-98 20:55:29 <sandervl> nenad: Not right now. Screen redraws aren't that bad.
03-09-98 20:55:36 <pfitz> Nenad: seriously, the tough parts are debugging -- when we've added an api -- and it should work, but doesn't.
03-09-98 20:56:17 <Egon> What about the Win32 Internet Support, and no I don't want IE to run on OS/2
03-09-98 20:56:19 <A-G> Egon: it's your turn..?!
03-09-98 20:56:57 <sandervl> Vev: That's your call.
03-09-98 20:56:57 <pfitz> Egon: I think OS/2 comes with all the internet stuff you need -- except NS/2 plugins. what did you have in mind?
03-09-98 20:56:58 <VeV> What internet support are you referring to, anything in particular?
03-09-98 20:57:20 <A-G> Thing of Communicator ?
03-09-98 20:57:21 <Egon> aka, real-audio, and some of the other programs like that
03-09-98 20:57:53 <VeV> Communication wise I don't see a problem, I don't know about the MM stuff tho.
03-09-98 20:58:05 <pfitz> Egon: as I said earlier, there's someone working on plugins, and has some simple/early success.
03-09-98 20:58:14 <Egon> What about things like AOL, Instant Messanger?
03-09-98 20:58:24 <TimurTabi> The Windows basic MM support is very possible in OS/2
03-09-98 20:58:29 <TimurTabi> Especially with DART and RTMIDI.
03-09-98 20:58:44 <Egon> Or even IQC
03-09-98 20:59:05 <VeV> I'm doing a full rewrite of the winsock routines to make sure it's all compatible.
03-09-98 20:59:16 <VeV> next is winsock2.
03-09-98 20:59:56 <alientek> Question, on the web page you state you want us to purchase apps and send them to you... what if I have a freeware app I want converted? ( I am referring to ICQ - I seen nothing reflecting a fee based software there and hate running system hog JavaICQ) -=also=-.... what is the chances of a program like agent newsreader being converted/convertable... I can't see buying software that has little or no chance of success :)
03-09-98 21:01:42 <pfitz> alientek: icq?
03-09-98 21:01:56 <pfitz> alientek: there are lots of os/2 newsreaders.
03-09-98 21:02:09 <VeV> I dunno about agent, I looked at it once a loooong time ago and that was it. I did port WinVN to OS/2, tho. I just didn't have time for the printing routines.
03-09-98 21:02:09 <sandervl> alientek: Again, it's hard to tell. Don't send Direct3D games or fancy multimedia apps.
03-09-98 21:02:14 <alientek> yeah, icq... I am in it right now, but hate the toll it takes on system resources running the Java ICQ
03-09-98 21:02:52 <VeV> I've never even seen ICQ run, java or otherwise. So I can't say.
03-09-98 21:03:25 <Frogger_> Speaking of legal advice, has Micro$oft taken any notice of this project? Have any attack lawyers contacted you, commanding you to cease and desist?
03-09-98 21:03:45 <sandervl> Frogger_: No.
03-09-98 21:03:45 * pfitz doesn't know what ICQ is
03-09-98 21:04:03 <pfitz> Frogger_: I have had one MS lawyer msg me
03-09-98 21:04:10 <Frogger_> hehe, good stuff. No followup.
03-09-98 21:04:14 <pfitz> Frogger_: he was an old friend.
03-09-98 21:04:17 <H-M> ICQ is a chat program, if I'm not mistaken
03-09-98 21:04:46 <SirBob_> what are your plans on releasing beta's, how frquently do you think?
03-09-98 21:04:52 <A-G> ICQ is like AOL for free.. nick, chat, msg..
03-09-98 21:05:10 <A-G> and it's for the internet with one "big" server behind..
03-09-98 21:05:24 <sandervl> SirBob: Once a month or so.
03-09-98 21:05:30 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 21:05:32 <VeV> Where is ICQ, I can take a look at it - no guarantees.
03-09-98 21:05:54 <A-G> VeV: www.mirabelis.com (?)
03-09-98 21:06:01 <A-G> something like that..
03-09-98 21:06:33 <SirBob_> do you have any more soon? or was the last one pretty much as far as youv've gotten? (thanks)
03-09-98 21:07:08 <_Torsten> any chance in future to port driver from win ? (No followup!) tnx
03-09-98 21:07:20 <sandervl> Within a few weeks I think. PHS' console stuff is new. There are ofcourse bugfixes and new apis.
03-09-98 21:07:38 <pfitz> FIW, the MS lawyer, who doesn't work as a lawyer, was "Mark Ryland". Many long time OS/2 (and fidonet) users may remember him as the ultimate OS/2'er that defected.
03-09-98 21:07:38 <VeV> Got it, www.icq.com or www.mirabilis.com
03-09-98 21:07:44 <pfitz> _Torsten: like a vxd? nil.
03-09-98 21:07:49 <sandervl> _Torsten: What kind of driver? VxD or system drivers? (No)
03-09-98 21:08:11 <_Torsten> tnx...
03-09-98 21:08:23 <NewOrder> I know you guys are not going to make PE2LX convert 16-bit DLLs/EXEs according to the last time I read your WWW page. But I think this should change in the future. for example. (I'm pretending that the comctl32.dll is working correctly :) ). Ontime32 (The best real-time group scheduling products for windoze) (I got internal alpha and I legaly got a copy cuz my brother work for that company :) ) has a few 16-bit DLLs in it that don't convert naturally, but will rende
03-09-98 21:08:26 <NewOrder> the program should still work for the most part). So, with that said. will you eventually make PE2LX convert 16-bit dll/exe's if more programs turn out to have mixed 16/32 but parts?
03-09-98 21:08:28 <PHS> Torsten: I think the likelyhood that DDs can be converted to OS/2 ranges from "nearly zero" to "impossible".
03-09-98 21:09:11 <pfitz> NewOrder: it is a technical nightmare (if not impossible) to convert 16bit exe/dlls.
03-09-98 21:09:13 <sandervl> NewOrder: No and I don't think it will change in the future.
03-09-98 21:09:26 <PHS> NewOrder: It _might_ be possiblt to get some 16-bit software running under native OS/2. But why bother - IBM gave you WinOS/2 and currently we're lacking the resources to do a NE2NE converter ...
03-09-98 21:09:39 <NewOrder> like conver 16-bit windows to 160bit os2 :)
03-09-98 21:09:41 <NewOrder> 16-bit even
03-09-98 21:09:50 <pfitz> NewOrder: a 32bit win32 program that loads a 16bit dll is using an undocumented function to do it --- serves them right!
03-09-98 21:10:22 <PHS> NewOrder: Hey, you can try yourself. Simply patch byte 0x136 from 0x02 (Windows 3) to 0x01 (OS/2) ... keep us posted !
03-09-98 21:11:06 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 21:12:13 <H-M> JHP, you're on stage
03-09-98 21:13:32 <H-M> next?
03-09-98 21:13:45 <A-G> Colin: go!
03-09-98 21:13:46 <Colin> Back on the GL question (I was a little late getting here), is it possible to map the GLIDE libs (and maybe D3D) to OS/2's GL support? I know IBM is planning on implementing hardware GL in GRADD this spring, so it's conceivable that we could have some GL accelerated drivers in the next 6 months (yes, I'm dreaming :)).
03-09-98 21:14:34 <sandervl> Colin: 3Dfx is working on a full Opengl implementation for win95/NT. Once it's done I'll take a look at it.
03-09-98 21:14:47 <sandervl> Another team member is working on general Opengl support.
03-09-98 21:15:00 <Colin> I was hoping we'd beat Win95 to HW GL support....
03-09-98 21:15:45 <SpeedyT> Do you have any idea where the problem is with converting Borland-compiled apps? It seems like a strange bug to have.
03-09-98 21:15:58 <sandervl> I know the problem, but haven't found a solution yet.
03-09-98 21:16:03 <pfitz> specht: bwwwaaaaaahhhhhaaaaaaaa
03-09-98 21:16:25 <pfitz> SpeedyT: sorry, couldn't resist. Borland always screws things up -- not unusually at all.
03-09-98 21:16:51 <SpeedyT> I know... I'm a Delphi developer at work.
03-09-98 21:16:58 <SpeedyT> Thanks, all set.
03-09-98 21:17:01 <sandervl> speedyT: Watcom and MS generate decent PE executables.
03-09-98 21:17:43 <A-G> Klaus: go!
03-09-98 21:17:52 <Klaus> I have heared that there is a problem to translate borland-compiled win32apps, is this a major problem like the 512MB limit or will this be fixed soon?
03-09-98 21:18:16 <pfitz> dejavu
03-09-98 21:18:28 <N-S> All over again :-)
03-09-98 21:19:25 <H-M> TimurTabi said earlier "The Windows basic MM support is very possible in OS/2" -- I'm wondering about the plausibility of converting things such as Intel Indeo Video Interactive 4.1 and 5.0, the Quicktime 3.0 codecs, etc--not now, but say within the next year.
03-09-98 21:20:11 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 21:20:14 <sandervl> H-M: Should be possible unless they do dirty things to perform their work.
03-09-98 21:20:22 <pfitz> well, if we get NS/2 plugins working, and Timur wants to write that MM code, it's possible
03-09-98 21:20:34 <sandervl> H-M: Integrating codecs is another story, but players should be possible.
03-09-98 21:20:41 <PHS> H-M: Well, AFAIK the codec interface is VERY different from OS/2 to Windows. But Mr. Andreas Portele (author of WinAVI / AnPoCodec) is working on some of those codecs you mentioned.
03-09-98 21:20:57 <H-M> okay, thanks
03-09-98 21:20:59 <H-M> next?
03-09-98 21:21:16 <pfitz> I have a statement to make if it is quiet.
03-09-98 21:21:28 <H-M> okay
03-09-98 21:21:35 <pfitz> Read:
03-09-98 21:21:38 <pfitz> Windows NT Threatens To Displace OS/2 In U.S. Banks
03-09-98 21:21:38 <pfitz> http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19980309S0009
03-09-98 21:21:49 <pfitz> that is what I see PE2LX's real mission
03-09-98 21:21:51 <pfitz> to prevent
03-09-98 21:22:25 <lmcrae> Sander: If I start on Mesa Voodoo (pe2lx converted MV samples fine) can I get some minor help with the glide.lib (makefiles)?
03-09-98 21:22:29 <pfitz> IBM doesn't give a rat's ass that OS/2 can run Quake II... but they will care if a 1000 user OS/2 bank says they want to run WordPerfect32.
03-09-98 21:22:46 <sandervl> lmcrae: Mail me and we'll talk.
03-09-98 21:22:56 <lmcrae> Do you have any need for more OS/2 programmers? Maybe some grunt work...
03-09-98 21:23:04 <sandervl> Not right now.
03-09-98 21:23:12 <lmcrae> Thanks and great job so far
03-09-98 21:23:27 <SYS3175> lxlite has a converter for ne->lx, is there any chance of using any of that for converting the 16bit dlls?
03-09-98 21:24:09 <sandervl> sys3175: If you intend to write 16 bits version of user, kernel etc etc, yes.
03-09-98 21:24:14 <pfitz> sys; I wasn't aware of that. url?
03-09-98 21:24:14 <sandervl> Otherwise, no.
03-09-98 21:24:24 <pfitz> ah, right.
03-09-98 21:24:45 <SYS3175> pfitz: it is in the lxlite inf
03-09-98 21:24:49 <PHS> SYS3175: No. That's only LX' support for 16-bit executables. For a 16-Bit windows environment we'd need KERNEL, GDI, USER, etc. lxlite can't provide that. Maybe we neither :)
03-09-98 21:24:49 <pfitz> SYS3175: I don't understand the NEED... OS/2 already runs 16bit apps.
03-09-98 21:25:34 <SYS3175> pfitz: mainly for poorly written apps that call 16 bit dlls
03-09-98 21:26:39 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 21:27:17 <Nenad> Why is console API so important? I don't know any console application that is so essential and that we need so badly in OS/2.
03-09-98 21:27:37 <sandervl> Nenad: Command line compilers/linkers for one.
03-09-98 21:27:44 <pfitz> Nenad: back-office stuff. Important to business and devlopers.
03-09-98 21:28:39 <pfitz> "[Colin] <21:27> does this mean NT services?", maybe not in the NT service form, but yes.
03-09-98 21:28:48 <Nenad> but... those are the type of apps. that we choose our OS for... not the ones that we want to run alongside
03-09-98 21:29:46 <pfitz> Nenad: and if a a bank currently is running OS/2, and needs one of those console apps for NT, they switch from NT -- and OS/2 looses 5000 licenses -- adn IBM loooses 5000 reasons to keep putting out os/2.
03-09-98 21:30:29 <Mara> Business is very important, but the SOHO and home user market is also important. For the home market, games are very important - they need to see something viable for them to choose OS/2. Is this in our sights?
03-09-98 21:30:58 <sandervl> Yes, but not a top priority.
03-09-98 21:31:16 <pfitz> mara: The SOHO market can not support an OS alone. If you want OS/2 to exist at all in the future, there has to be large biz users of it.
03-09-98 21:32:19 <A-G> Mara: you're done ?
03-09-98 21:32:26 <Mara> I can see that, but all of the employees at the large businesses are home users. There is a lot of influence in big biz's IT decisions by home users. They need to be catered for too.
03-09-98 21:32:37 <pfitz> mara: if we spent all our time now on DirectX/3d/Sound, we might miss the boat. The harm to os/2 (by people switching to NT) might have already happened.
03-09-98 21:33:10 <Mara> It's a wait and see game - all we can do is promote and hope. Thanks - I'm done.
03-09-98 21:33:46 <A-G> to that URL NT gets OS/2 at banks..
03-09-98 21:33:56 <A-G> i read once for a while os/2 is 40+ %..
03-09-98 21:34:07 <A-G> So what's "true" now ? i just read the page you posted..
03-09-98 21:34:13 <pfitz> a-g: every year it does down :(
03-09-98 21:34:28 <pfitz> a-g: at a faster rate.
03-09-98 21:34:46 <A-G> pfitz: but ibm said on their site last time i read it they managed to increase their percentage..
03-09-98 21:34:47 <pfitz> a-g: because some apps the banks want are only availble on NT
03-09-98 21:35:08 <pfitz> a-g: i'd like to read that if you have the URL
03-09-98 21:35:14 <i-sob> im not sure if this has been asked yet..i havent been paying much attention, but i got win32os2 from hobbes a week or so back, and after trying to complile a few things noticed that after converting all the DLLs needed by the already converted EXEs, i kept getting the _same_ system trap. whats the deal with that?
03-09-98 21:35:33 <A-G> pfitz: it's kinda old... i'll try if i can find that..
03-09-98 21:36:06 <pfitz> i-sob: were they all created by the same thing, for example MS VB ?
03-09-98 21:36:17 <pfitz> a-g: email@example.com
03-09-98 21:36:34 <sandervl> i-sob: Which system trap?
03-09-98 21:37:09 <i-sob> pfitz, the first thing i tried was Hotline client, which was written with CodeWarrior C++, then i tried a graphics app; dont know what that was written in, and lastly ClarisWorks Office and i dont know what that was written with either.
03-09-98 21:37:36 <i-sob> sandervl..something about not being able to obtain complete control of something...i forgot
03-09-98 21:37:51 <sandervl> i-sob: Probably something about an api not being present.
03-09-98 21:38:02 <i-sob> no, it was about kernel32.dll
03-09-98 21:38:25 <sandervl> i-sob: Post a complete description on comp.os.os2.bugs.
03-09-98 21:39:04 <i-sob> sandervl..k, or if youll gimme a second i can try it again and get the trap right now..
03-09-98 21:40:38 <N-S> please /MSG the moderator with the nick range including the first alpha of your nick. He will give you voice to ask your question
03-09-98 21:40:55 <H-M> let us know when you get it i-sob, we'll put you back in the queue
03-09-98 21:42:21 <A-G> Bseward ??
03-09-98 21:42:58 <Bseward> Finally when i am ready to give up on os/2 after running it since os/2 2.0 came out you come up with a program that gives us hope again.
03-09-98 21:43:21 <pfitz> Bseward: that was the whole idea
03-09-98 21:43:34 <H-M> :)
03-09-98 21:44:03 <pfitz> Bseward: now, if we can repalce "Bseward" with "AT&T" I'll be real happy.
03-09-98 21:44:15 <Bseward> I would like to get the mediaone cable modems program to work with os/2 its possible.
03-09-98 21:44:35 <Nenad> I have a question about OLE32.DLL conflict with SmartSuite for OS/2, how do you plan to solve that problem? SS will be on many OS/2 desktops very soon.
03-09-98 21:44:56 <pfitz> Bseward: I don't know what that is, but do know plenty of people using cable modems under os/2.
03-09-98 21:45:28 <sandervl> Nenad: Just be careful for now.
03-09-98 21:45:57 <Nenad> ok...
03-09-98 21:46:34 <Nenad> btw, do you have any timeframe?
03-09-98 21:46:57 <sandervl> Nenad: I can change the dll name if it becomes a real problem.
03-09-98 21:47:17 <i-sob> The system could not demand load the aplication's segment. DCIMAN32->KERNEL32. SUnMapLS IP EBP 8 is in error. For additional detailed information type HELP SYS127 (yes, i converted DCIMAN32.DLL) in another app i got it in GDI32.get
03-09-98 21:47:42 <i-sob> in everything its a different file, but all the files in error were converted. :(
03-09-98 21:47:43 <sandervl> i-sob: Like I said. An api that's not implemented.
03-09-98 21:47:43 <pfitz> i-sob: type "help 127" from a command prompt
03-09-98 21:47:57 <PHS> i-sob: That API isn't implemented (yet).
03-09-98 21:48:13 <i-sob> alright, thanks :)
03-09-98 21:48:41 <H-M> Well I believe that was the end of the question queue
03-09-98 21:49:10 <sandervl> Good. I need to get some sleep. :)
03-09-98 21:49:14 <H-M> wait, looks like one more
03-09-98 21:49:18 <A-G> ** LAST CHANCE ON ASKING IS NOW **
03-09-98 21:49:25 <iN8Malice> Have you given any consideration to contacting vendors whose Win32 programs are successfully converted to OS/2? While the ability to run Win32 programs under OS/2 is great, I don't see big business running "mission critical" software that isn't supported by the vendor. Ultimately, isn't the vendor's support needed?
03-09-98 21:49:37 <pfitz> sandervl: I'll stay if you want to sleep
03-09-98 21:49:56 <pfitz> iN8Malice: yes, I have thought of that
03-09-98 21:50:00 <sandervl> pfitz: I'll stay for 9 more minutes. (till 4 am)
03-09-98 21:50:16 <pfitz> iN8Malice: but we havne't talked about it because there is lots more work to do yet :)
03-09-98 21:51:16 <mandie_> I'd like to thank the developers from joining for the discussion of their win32-os/2 project!
03-09-98 21:51:43 <mandie_> Also for the support and *hope* that they are providing the os2 community
03-09-98 21:51:48 <mandie_> Our Hats go off to you all!!!
03-09-98 21:52:18 <mandie_> I'd also like to thank the visitors that joined us tonight and
03-09-98 21:52:47 <mandie_> would like to let you know that we have Sam Detweiler doing a speakup the 30th on device driver support
03-09-98 21:52:51 <mandie_> Abraxas..it's all yours
03-09-98 21:53:21 <VeV> G'nite all, I gotta get up in a few hours.
03-09-98 21:53:29 <mandie_> Vev: g'nite
03-09-98 21:53:31 <EndUser> good night
03-09-98 21:53:34 <Abraxas> I'd just like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that VOICE is all about supporting you, the individual and soho OS/2 user
03-09-98 21:53:38 <DaBull> g'nite and thanks
03-09-98 21:53:43 <Projects> VeV: g'night, and thanks
03-09-98 21:53:50 <sandervl> Good night.
03-09-98 21:53:55 <mandie_> is the floor open now?
03-09-98 21:54:01 <DaBull> bye
03-09-98 21:54:02 <mandie_> sandervl: g'nite
03-09-98 21:54:03 <pfitz> sandervl: nite
03-09-98 21:54:03 <EndUser> yes it is
03-09-98 21:54:08 <TheSeer> yes...
03-09-98 21:54:13 <DaBull> might as wellb e
03-09-98 21:54:13 <mandie_> ok :)
03-09-98 21:54:14 <DaBull> be even
03-09-98 21:54:18 <Bseward> Cool Beans :>
03-09-98 21:54:24 <PHS> Gute Nacht alle miteinander :)
03-09-98 21:54:25 <mandie_> abraxas: where arrrrrrre yooooooou?
03-09-98 21:54:28 * EndUser says "Thank you, come again."
03-09-98 21:54:32 <mandie_> PHS: I agree :)
03-09-98 21:54:37 <pfitz> I'm going to take a 10 min break and come back if anyone wants to chew the fat
03-09-98 21:54:44 * pfitz has set away! (bi10)
03-09-98 21:54:46 <mandie_> pfitz: great!
03-09-98 21:54:47 <Colin> PHS Tschuss
03-09-98 21:54:55 *** Log Terminated.