SpeakUp with Brad Wardell of Stardock from 06/14/99

<mandie b_wardell: welcome!!! :)
<Ltning dink: warp5 one
<JE_Hoover the aurora one of course ;)
<dink hmm ok
<Ltning hi b_wardell
<mandie Longstaff: danke :)
<^Piggy^ hi b_wardell
<Isxios good evening all
<JE_Hoover ho b_wardell
<mandie Isxios: g'evening :)
<Drifter_ Brad Wardell is a frog boy?
<b_wardell yep
<JE_Hoover might explain a few things ;)
<Swanee hehe
<dink ahahahah
<Drifter_ thats where I got those warts from :)
<mandie b_wardell: did you make the mtg last Thursday?
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: So what are we doing here tonight?
<mandie Tim!!! welcome
<b_wardell yea but you weren't there. We demoed Aurora.
<Ltning hi Tim-IBM
<mandie b_wardell: you might want to change your nick to simplify things here :)
<Swanee Hi Tim-IBM!!
<Isxios I, personally, am here to say thanks to Brad for all the good work SD has done
<^Piggy^ Drifter_: Those are genital warts.
<Abraxas Hello, Tim
<mandie oopss...it is the real Brad :)
<mandie abraxas: it's him :)
<Nenad hi mr Sipples
<b_wardell Thanks.
<Projects mandie! didn't see you sneak in :)
<Swanee mandie: duh! hahaha
<mandie swanee: you might want to do a /wi on b_wardell and you'll see why :)
*  Sector thinks mandie likes to slip in the back door
<mandie but only he would have know what I was talking about :)
<mandie no back doors on my server :)
<Wardell (just to add to confusion :)
<Ltning mandie: I bet l.exe does the trick ;)
<Tim-IBM Hello and good evening (in many time zones)...
<Swanee mandie: I knew he was frogboy. :-)
<mandie swanee: you been hanging in the swamp again :)
<b_wardell On our #stardock channel (on EFNet) I'm usually on as FrogBoy.
<mandie brad: you had a couple of us fooled :)
<Ltning For your information: The DoS attack recently discovered on Linux 2.2.x kernels ALSO TAKES OUT OS/2 MACHINES!!!!!!
<Swanee mandie: But I didn't let on completely because I figured he was in cognito
*  Abraxas clears his throat (and typing finger)
<b_wardell Mandie: You're on MediaOne now right?
<mandie swanee: ahh, didn't want to blow his cover :)
<mandie brad: nope..that's not my cable co
<Swanee mandie: You got it. I can be discreet. :-)
<b_wardell Ah.
<Isxios this my first Voice thing, so how do you guys organize here?
<mandie we have Comcast
<mandie still 128K ISDN
<^Piggy^ Lets get to some news.... I hope. :)
<b_wardell heh heh. You should switch then.
<Nenad Isxios: they don't :)
<b_wardell Cable modems are so much nicer.
*  Abraxas clears his throta, AGAIN!!
<Isxios oh
<b_wardell I can access my work machines from home.
<madodel What the hell does he want?
<Ltning I guess there's a reason why brad came here today - or I'll be disappointed :)
<Nenad and your home machines from work... :)
<Swanee Isxios: Once we start, just Listen and speak when you feel there is a space
<Isxios ok
<Isxios I figured that
<Drifter_ ya but @home complain's about such little things like ftpd servers :)
<b_wardell Well, Mandie and Co. asked me to talk to VOICE and see if there were any questions. We can also talk about the Warp client a bit though details are still a bit sketchy.
<madodel Has this begun?
<Swanee Isxios: We may moderate but that remains to be seen...
<mandie drifter: that's what I heard :(
<Ltning Drifter_: haha.. only 1.6gig/day..
<Ltning ..upstream..
<mandie I run the ftpd, httpd and ircd
<Abraxas VOICE would like to take this opportunity to welcome Brad Wardell (Stardock) to this evenings Speakup
<Isxios Warp client?
<mandie shh :)
*  TheSeer chears :)
<Fuzy|ogic big crowd...
<dink southpark movie june 30th =)
*  _Pilot is severely lagging :(((
<Abraxas In the recent past, all of the VOICE Speakups have been open and unmoderated, and we'd like to start out this evening with the same format
*  Swanee applauds politely... while standing... fo quite a while
<Ltning We'll try to behave.
<TheSeer *g*
<Nenad Ltning: don't behave, shut up :)
<dink yo da_man =)
*  Drifter_ slaps duct tape on himself
<jjurban behave? me? well I'll try.
<Abraxas If the "room" becomes too noisy and cluttered with questions coming from all directions, we'll have to go to a moderated session
<dink drifter_: shh be quiet about the ducttape......
<^Piggy^ shhhhhhh
<mandie jjurban!!! hi :)
<DA_MAN hi dink ..wuz up/
<dink just chilllin
<Longstaff we, uhh, only need to worry about moderating the forum when drumpig shows up :)
<DA_MAN has the speakup session started?
<Nenad first of all, I want to protest why this starts so late for us from Europe! now you can continiue... :)
<TheSeer Nenad: *g*
<madodel0 Aren't all you folks over there on holiday?
<Isxios perhaps a changing in the laws of physics so that the entire earth could be on the same time frame would do
*  Swanee checks Abraxas's typing finger for a case of the "slows"
<mandie let's get the show on the road plz
<TheSeer Isxios: well.. any hour earlier will help.. ;)
<golan madodel0 : on holiday in Europe?
<TheSeer it's 2 am here..
<maximum Brad, why a new OS/2 client?
*  Drifter_ mumbles from under the duck tape, "so when can we ask questions?"
<b_wardell Ok, let's start with questions and such. I'll answer any questions anyone has.
<mandie abraxas must be having problems
<Abraxas Brad, I'll turn the meeting over to Brad
<golan theseer: yeah, and we do have to get up early tomorrow!
<b_wardell Let me first start off with a brief explaination on Stardock and then I'll anser the OS/2 Client question.
<TheSeer golan: don't tell me ;)
<b_wardell Stardock is an OS/2 ISV which started in 1994 by producing Galactic Civilizations (a game for OS/2)
<b_wardell After that game's success, Stardock got into other software for OS/2 such as Object Desktop, Process Commander, OS/2 Essentials, and a numer of other OS/2 games and utilities.
<Frogger Ribbet!
<b_wardell In 1996, Windows NT 4.0 came out (booh) and the OS/2 market from an end user's perspective declined rather drastically. It coincided with IBM's release of Warp 4 which was largely targeted at the corporate only market (as opposed to Warp 3).
<Nenad yes..?
<b_wardell About a year ago, IBM began talking about Aurora and that they would probably just pursue going after the server market and not even do a client after Warp 4.
<Isxios boo IBM
<b_wardell At that point, we started talking to IBM about potentially licensing Aurora and turning that into a client.
<mandie and the answer we've all been waiting for..........
<b_wardell I asked Tim (the guy who just had a ping time out) from IBM to join us so that we can more easily...discuss what can and can't be talked about.
<b_wardell (Tim has returned).
<dink what about fixes for OD? Everyone I know (personally) with OD installed has wps freezes up the wah-zoo
<b_wardell Much of our discussions with IBM are confidential but some details we can talk about.
<mandie can we start with what "can't" be talked about :)
<b_wardell heh.
<Isxios :)
<mandie Blacky!! welcome
<JE_Hoover brad - is it likely we will see a product that could be called a warp client (YES / NO)
<b_wardell Well, I can say that discussion are ongoing and looking pretty positive right now. IBM's a big company and a project like this needs the approval of a lot of people.
<^Piggy^ dink: I actaully don't have OD freeze ups.
<b_wardell JE_hoover: Very probable.
<dink hmm..
<Pilot so, do you have any agreement ?
<Nenad b_wardell: from IBM or Stardock?
<b_wardell No.
<dink Piggy: well, some ppl have severe lockups w/OD installed
<mandie are you even close to an agreement?
<b_wardell Stardock and IBM are still trying to determine the arrangement.
<^Piggy^ dink: I know.... but I don't. :)
<b_wardell I'll let Tim-IBM answer that.
<dink lucky you
<Isxios some people have sever lockups without it installed. Let's just listen
<Drifter_ b_wardell: Why a new client though, Warp 4 is a good client, has a good install base, and a great fixpack team, if IBM would just add more features to it, like thru software choice, they would be better off
<Pilot maybe draft???
<dink isxios: the funny thing is, when they uninstall OD, it stops locking up, so go figure..
<^Piggy^ shhhhh
<sehh Drifter_: warp4 is out-dated, old, has no real multimedia support
<Isxios SHHH
<Blacky Mandie - Hi, looks like it's busy tonight.
<Ltning Tim doesn't seem to want to be with us.
<b_wardell Drifter: Well, first off, Warp 4 is become an aging OS. It's not Year 2K compliant out of the box for instance, there have been numerous driver advancements as well as technological advancements in OS/2 since then that can be found in aurora.
<golan it seems that tim-ibm is having problems
<TheSeer looks like Tim is not going to answer anything..
<Nenad Tim-IBM is using outdated client, I guess :)
<dink Drifter_: yea, I'm happy with warp4 + latest fixpak.. I see no reason to shell out more money (that I don't have in the 1st place) for a client update...
<Ltning KuiSa-Ka! :)
<KuiSa-Ka Ltning :)
<Klaus sehh: do you think a stardock client has a new mmos2??
<Isxios If he's on NT, I'll die laughing
<Swanee Let's let brad and tim fill us in on what they want to say and they will let us know when they will answer questions.
<b_wardell dink: That's your choice. You could also have stayed with Warp 2.11 which many were happy with.
<Drifter_ b_wardell: But is could be retrofitted
<sehh Klaus: i don't know and i don't think so
<KuiSa-Ka hi, ppl!
<dink 2.11 has crummy tcp/ip support
<Isxios FOCUS People
<b_wardell Aurora not only is SMP out of the box, it has mcuh better networking and device driver support. It has a new file system (JFS) and numerous other advantgages (if you check out the Aurora specs, you'll see what I mean).
<golan b_wardell: Y2k is coming fast. Are you talking or are you thinking of a possible client before Dec 31?
<Nenad 2.11 had no artchron, either
<_jm Let's hear what Tim has to tell us
<Drifter_ b_wardell: Would IBM or Stardock manage technical support for this new OS, who would continue fixpack development.
<TheSeer Nenad:
<sehh b_wardell: device driver support? it that why all the old sound drivers don't work?
<b_wardell IBM Aurora fixpacks would work on this client.
<^Piggy^ C'mon people. Let him speak.
<dink the only thing os/2 really needs is new drivers...
<Drifter_ b_wardell: I know about the advantages of Aurora, but these were all built onto a Warp 4 base right?
<Nenad TheSeer: funny, but that Art tool never connected to anything over the Internet
<TheSeer b_wardell: what about multimedia stuff.. the mmos/2 is kinda buggy...
<b_wardell A Stardock/IBM client would be Aurora plus new specific components.
<Tim-IBM Sorry folks, I'm back.
<JE_Hoover b_wardell - How do we know that as a client developement company you will provide reasonable support for developers ... I have never known stardock to be particularly helpful regarding problems with OD so how do we know that you would not provide the same level of service to your warp client
<TheSeer Drifter: aurora has a new kernel..
<TheSeer root on irc ;)
<b_wardell JE_Hoover, Well, for one thing, we would make no promises of that kind. We would instead invest in creating an infrastructure similar to what exists on Linux.
*  Nenad wonders why Tim is not using Java IRC client :)
<b_wardell We would try to get the OS/2 communinity to be more self-sufficient. Create an organization that works together to find out what needs to be written and how to go about writing it.
<jjurban Please, I'd like to hear what Brad and Tim have to say first. Then we can all quibble.
<b_wardell We would also include developer tools with the client.
<Frogger brad: Open Source????
<b_wardell No.
<b_wardell Not open source.
<^Piggy^ great
<dink if you're going to make it like linux, then how about just release it free
<b_wardell Open Source is more of a marketing phenomenon than a reality.
<sehh dink: the corporate marked wouldn't like that
<b_wardell OS/2 can already be greatly expanded and enhanced without giving away source code because of the way IBM designed it.
<Ltning b_wardell: i have to agree there.
<b_wardell Try doing an Object Desktop on Linux, for instance without source code to linux.
<Ltning but the bugs...
<Isxios all software has bbugs
*  Drifter_ gets out his bug spray
<b_wardell On OS/2, because it was designed for it, a program like Object Desktop can be created without source code because OS/2 was designed from the beginning for an active third party development community.
<sehh from what i know, warp5 client exists and its ready..
<TheSeer b_wardell: what about multimedia stuff.. the mmos/2 is kinda buggy...
<sehh hmm
<b_wardell Depends on which part of MMOS/2 you are talking about.
<Drifter_ all of it :)
<b_wardell We would pull a number of components out of the client such as OpenDoc (OpenDOC MMOS/2 components are a source of many of the instability in MMOS/2)
<TheSeer b_wardell: try to play an mpeg-movie..
<Isxios MMOS2 needs to be replaced. All of it.
<Nenad b_wardell: you created OD for NT, too, so NT is also well designed? :)
<b_wardell The product on NT does not do the same things it does on OS/2.
<b_wardell And it takes a LOT more time to do little things on NT.
<Isxios So,
<TheSeer that's why Windowblinds is out for NT ? *g*
<Isxios OD on NT sits on top of Explorer, rather than integrating with it?
<b_wardell exactly, a progarm like WindowBlinds would be MUCH easier to create on OS/2 than it is on Windows.
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: So how far are the negotiations with IBM? (On a scale of 1 to 10)
<sehh hmm
<dink theseer: because theres more money to be made on nt, common sense?
<b_wardell I'll let Tim answer that since he's from IBM.
<Nenad b_wardell: WarpBlinds would be welcomed in OS/2 comunity :)
<Tim-IBM Thanks, Brad.
<Drifter_ oh.... Tim! time to wake up
<JE_Hoover b_wardell WindowsBlinds ;)
<dink b_wardell: if its easier to create, then where is the os/2 version?
<TheSeer b_wardell: so.. since it's easier to make in os/2 you created it for NT to show the crowd you guys can code ? *g*
<Tim-IBM First of all, both Brad and I are understandably a bit limited yet in what we can say.
<b_wardell Because it wouldn't be profitable to do it on OS/2. There's not enough market for pure eyecandy software like that on OS/2.
<Tim-IBM However, I'm (as they say) "cautiously optimistic." Stardock has made a very attractive
<Abraxas Sorry .... but I (and a host of others) would like to hear what Brad and Tim have to say .... we'll be Moderated for a short period
<Tim-IBM proposal, and we'd very much like to do it. We'll try to get both sides to meet together in the middle.
<b_wardell The challenge is, of course, that the immense size of IBM makes such agreements very time consuming to move forward sometimes.
<Tim-IBM What I can say is that, whatever we do, we'll protect the interests of our customers.
<Tim-IBM Which means here, quite simply, that if you get a subscription on OS/2 Warp (including IBM Software Choice) then we expect it'll be honored.
<Longstaff Tim-IBM - that's very much in the ibm tradition, is it not?
<Tim-IBM Yes, Longstaff. And both Stardock and IBM agree that that tradition should be honored.
<b_wardell Just think of the implications though of what that means. It creates some great opportunities but also some significant complexity to such an agreement.
<Tim-IBM Yes, and that's a bit of what we're wrestling with, although I must say Brad's come up with an elegant solution.
<b_wardell I think we can move back to open floor now.
<b_wardell If you guys don't mind.
<maximum If you are talking about forming an organization, then why not do it and let it do the negotiation with IBM?
<VMan Brad, about your comment on windowblinds/2. With what has been achieved with Stylist/2 (Smart Windows) and the last CandyBarZ, would you say that a WarpBlinds movement has future?
<Tim-IBM Maximum: Speaking (unofficially) for IBM, I don't think we could tolerate that -- for legal reasons, among others.
<b_wardell Well, with regards to an organization, who would run this organization? Adn why would IBM deal with one? IBM wants to deal with an established OS/2 vendor - a commercial vendor.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: it would be nice if IBM could deside if they want to support OS/2 or just stopp all os/2 development, everything in between is verry bad .-(
<TheSeer b_wardell: let's talk about the time-schedule.. *if* stardock will do a client.. in what time ? warp 4 is not y2k-ready and i doubt you'll manage to have a product in less then 6 month..
<Isxios IBM may value the customer, ut IBM's view of a customer seems limited to large corporations. Where do I fit into IBM's commitment to the customer
<_jm The problem with os/2 today is drivers for new hardware. Talk of a new client is nice, but is IBM going to create drivers for new hardware--or is stardock going to do this.
<Ltning b_wardell: Question: If it is to be IBM that will do fixpaks and development of the base os and its components, what exactly is it then StarDock will do? I.e. the things that has to be done for OS/2 to be a good client, is things that IBM then would have to do.
<b_wardell VMan: We wouldn't do a WarpBlinds type product because it wouldn't be profitable to do it.
<Ltning Will IBM commit themselves to those tasks?
<maximum Tim-IBM: You cannot tolerate negotiating with a legal organization?
<sehh from what we can see, ibm's management is not really interested in os/2...
<sehh well they know that NT has lots more money to offer..i don't blame them..
<b_wardell The first step would be to have an open beta program, we would have to create a new install program that worked with the existing hardware detection features of OS/2's SID install, we would then have to bring in the extra components we want to work on.
<Nenad the problem I see is the future, OS/2 is quite "current" today but that is mostly because it was ahead of it's time few years ago, I'm afraid that no significant development efforts are being made in IBM to improve and make it technology leader again... like no 64-bit version, no WPS improvements, no directory service on server, no integration... will it be "current" in two years?
<JE_Hoover Tim-IBM - I dont think that paying IBM $190 USD to report a critical bug that allows OS/2 to be remotely trapped in the TCPIP 4.1 4.21 stacks is reasonable - and I'm really annoyed that you suggested it.
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: The shipment schedule depends a lot on how quickly we (IBM) can review everything, so it's not necessarily all on Stardock's shoulders.
<Klaus Nenad: I agree to you
<Ltning Btw Brad.. Why are you running Windows w/mIRC?
<b_wardell What does a 64bit version buy you for a client?
<b_wardell Because I'm in NT.
<sehh Tim-IBM: are you serious? we would PAY to have a bug fixed? this is ridiculous
<jjurban What can WE do to help make Warp 5 client a reality?
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: I think it was a message from you in Usenet where you mention incorporating "windowblinds technologies" into WinOS2. Do you have this intention. (it'd be rather nice to do it)
<Tim-IBM Maximum: IBM would not tolerate dealing with an unincorporated organization for these purposes, no. And there are sound legal reasons for that -- some beyond IBM's control.
<Projects b_wardell: can you stick to plain text por favor? I can't read that red on a black screen
<mandie jjurban: excellent question!
<b_wardell Yes, we would do a WindowBlinds for WinOS2 so that Windows programs running on OS/2 would appear to be like OS/2 programs. Just a visual change but important to corporate users who want a consistant user interface.
<b_wardell projects: sorry.
<maximum Tim-IBM: Who is talking about an unincorporated organization. Certainly Brad isn't suggesting that. I didn't suggest it at WarpStock98.
<Nenad b_wardell: new installaton program is a great idea!
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: Great, WinOS2 is in need of a makeover. :)
<Tim-IBM Hoover: That's how it works, and that's reality. It's a commercially supported operating system at commercial rates under present circumstances.
<Projects b_wardell: np... I was pasting it to another window, but it's coming fast and furious :)
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: well.. i really don't care WHO.. i just have no idea HOW it should happen.. you can't "create" a client out of nothing..
<Tim-IBM Hoover: The support is unbelievably good from IBM, but it is paid support.
<Drifter_ I would rather see attention on a better win32 support than it looking good
<Tim-IBM Hoover: And that is not at all uncommon in the industry.
<Ltning b_wardell: Don't you think it is a tad provoking to use mIRC when you are in this channel to talk about a future OS/2 client? Doesn't really show much commitment...
<VMan Drifter: I guess that should come with Odin or Everblue
<Tim-IBM Hoover: (Although what is uncommon is IBM's top quality support.)
<sehh TheSeer: warp5 client is already made and ready..
<TheSeer Drifter: odin is making good progress..
<TheSeer sehh: that's rumor..
<Pilot Tim-IBM: you mean no more free fixpacks or what?
<b_wardell There would be no Win32 support. One thing the OS/2 community needs to do is begin supporting itself. Linux has not suffered from not having Win32 support, it's a thriving -- growing community. It's that kind of community that OS/2 needs to thrive.
<jjurban I'm an OS/2 developer. My main problem surviving is the perception that OS/2 is dead. A Warp 5 client would enable me to stay in business. I will do ANYTHING to help a new client come to be.
<Isxios He can use whatever the hell he chooses to use. Stop nitpicking and just listen and ask pertinent questions
<JE_Hoover Tim-IBM - should we send IBM a bill for our 3 programmers time over 2 days to detect the error and save IBM from being sued by any of your bank clients
<Frogger Ltning: OS wars are boring. Forget about it and concentrate on the future.
<Tim-IBM Maximum: Stardock has laid a proposal in front of IBM. I'm not implying that other proposals wouldn't be considered. However, I must say that Stardock's is well crafted.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: can you agree to Sehh's point? (warp5 client is already made and ready..) ??
<Ltning Frogger: Yes sir. :)
<VMan I would start learning C asap, even though I concluded C is primitve ^_^
<b_wardell Ltning: OS/2 users have to move beyond superficial useless gestures. Deeds are what matter. Stardock is a commercial corporation it writes software for money. And you can bet that if we publish the next OS/2 client it will be a success because we'd make it our business (as opposed to hobby) to make it successful.
<Abraxas FWIW, VOICE is currently working on a project that would provide support for OS/2 (curent and future versions) to EVERYONE ... regardless of "number of seats/licenses" that we hope will be all-inclusive ... better than IBM's own APAR reporting system, .... a sear4chable database of problems/fixes culled from USENET, Mailing Lists and one-on-one Q&A with recognized OS/2 "Experts"
<Ltning b_wardell: I understand your business nees fully. My question, as stated above, is if IBM will be willing to do what THEY have to do to make the changes necessary for OS/2 to be a viable end-user client?
<VMan Brad: what can you say of the so-talked-about Warp2000.com?
<mandie abraxas: if Stardock's deal goes through, maybe we can get Brad involved..and maybe even Mr. Tim :)
<Tim-IBM Hoover: Seriously, I would recommend you evaluate that time, find out how much it costs, and evaluate whether paid IBM support is worth it.
<_jm I support an os/2 network of machines. My biggest prob. is the perception IBM is kiling os/2. A new client would help, but support of a dell pc (with drivers that run the hardware) would go a long way.
<Ltning b_wardell: My point is that adding features from your products is not enough, some serious (and not-so-serious) changes to the base OS and multimedia subsystem also has to be made.
<sehh Abraxas: do we have to be members of voice to access that database?
<b_wardell If people take a fresh look around at the OS/2 community, they'll see that it really needs to start being more self sufficient. Instead of wondering "when is IBM going to do this" or "when is Stardock going to do that" we'll work to transform it to be more like Linux where the users do for thsmevles. That will be a major goal of ours, to create an infrastructure where users can more eaisly help each other and developers can work together. We
<b_wardell accessible.
<Frogger Brad: Is GalCiv going to be ported to Linux?
<mandie sehh: NO, we're here to assist the OS/2 community
<Tim-IBM Hoover: We must have a sustainable business case for OS/2 Warp. We will support you at reasonable rates.
<Projects sehh: no :)
<Isxios Does Stardock intend to take the WPS under their wing? Improve and support it while IBM handles the rest?
<JE_Hoover tim-ibm - thats 2400 per programmer x 3 programmers x 2 days for detecting an error in OS/2 and having to spend hours and hours communicating with IBM
<Abraxas sehh NO .... absolyely NOT
<b_wardell Frogger: Maybe eventually, GalCiv for Linux kind of died, the company doing it had some setbacks.
<sehh k
<JE_Hoover Tim-IBM if you want to charge for reporting bugs - maybe you should PAY for detecting them
<Longstaff sehh - the database interface will be contained in a java applet operating over public www
<sehh JAVA??? oh my god..
<Pilot b_wardell: how we can be self sufficient with a proprietary OS??? That's ridiculous...
<b_wardell Isxios: It's hard to say, we won't have source code to OS/2.
<sehh that would mean half the comm/2's out there would crash!!
<sehh also that would mean slow access!!
<b_wardell Pilot: Why?
<Ltning b_wardell: Well that fresh look won't help much - some things in OS/2 can only be fixed by IBM and IBM alone. Other things by StarDock. Everything else I agree the community should be able to take care of on it's own - and I appreciate your eager to make that happen.
<sehh please don't use java..
<sehh its just too slow and uses too much memory..
<Drifter_ b_wardell: Im glad to hear you want to make it a success, but if you package a new client with Stardock products bundled, then you and IBM will be potentialy hurting small software companies with competing applications or utilities.
<_jm How can I continue to use /2 when it won't run most new hardware? This isn't a new client we need; we need support from ibm
<PaperMach David loves Warp
<Klaus Tim-IBM: the problem my bosses think that way: IBM-OS/2 Client -> no IBM-OS/2 Server and no IBM-Hardware (->MS-Soft and Compaq hardware) so a stardock Client is nice for me home user, but no good for big business...
<Abraxas sehh ... not if they are correctly configured
<b_wardell Ltning: Device drivers could come from the OS/2 community. Why does everyone always wait for IBm to do device drivers?
<sehh java is nice if you are the programmer, but if you are the user of a java program it is the worst thing..
<JE_Hoover Tim-IBM - we detected probably the most important bug in os/2 tcpip and you have the audiacity to tell me that I should be thankful that IBM tried to charge me
<Pilot b_wardell: WPS is dead IBM says, how anyone can program for PM/WPS then?
<Tim-IBM Drifter: Stardock's plan does not threaten third party vendors -- it's very sensitive to their needs.
<Ltning b_wardell: Well to make good multimedia drivers and applications we REALLY need a VERY MUCH updated multimedia subsystem - which is the area where OS/2 is lagging behind the most at present.
<sehh Tim-IBM: if ibm's management is full of people like you, i believe that YOU are the reason that OS/2 is nearly dead right now
<Isxios b_wardell: Would Stardock provide hardware support that IBM refused to do?
<b_wardell Pilot: On Linux then, EVERYTHING is dead.
<jjurban What happened to the O-O driver model?
<Klaus b_wardell: if the IBM-Comunity is doing the devicedrivers and Win32, we could do the os too (or switch to linux ,-)
<Tim-IBM Klaus: The Stardock plan is sensitive to this concern and addresses it well, in my personal opinion.
<mandie I think it's because of IBM'ers like Tim that OS/2 lives on
<b_wardell The OS/2 community could do device drivers themselves. The BeOS community (and BeOS is quite proprietary) has been cranking out device drivers.
<Pilot b_wardell: will you have access to WPS sources?
<Pilot b_wardell: for fixing and developing it?
*  Projects agrees with mandie
<Frogger Will there be hardware accerlated OpenGL drivers?
<JE_Hoover mandie - its not ... - Tim should not say that we should PAY to report a BUG
<sehh stardock with its release of OD has been marked as a company that makes 'winblouz-like' programs... since they are slow and need lots of memory.. lets how that this will not happen if they release warp5 client..
<jjurban jjurban agrees with mandie - and I'm one of IBM's biggest critics!
<b_wardell Pilot: We weren't planning on it, but who knows, depends on IBM. It would be nice to have that available. WPS development is difficult to do.
<Ltning b_wardell: I'm NOT only talking about device drivers! I DO agree that this can be done. But still there are MAJOR parts of the base os that you CAN NOT expect freelance developers to come around without help from IBM.
<dink sehh: not to mention the BUGS (not the game) they refuse to fix
<Abraxas mandie you are 100% correct ... Tim and quite a few other IBMers who are personally committed to OS/2
<_jm I buy software; I can't write it. I need to KNOW when that new ide disk comes out I can get drivers for it...
<Tim-IBM Hoover: I'm telling you we're grateful, and we appreciate it. I'm also telling you that you should raise the issue of reimbursement with the Support Center. They may be able to help.
<mandie JE_Hoover: there are those of us that WILL pay to report a but as long as it means a new client
<mandie but=bug
<sehh mandie: yeah? i have never seen a company who asks for its clients to pay for a bug to be fixed!! that sounds more like micro$oft...
<b_wardell sehh: I occasionally see people say this and yet Object Desktop wins best product of its kind every year on OS/2 e-Zine. OS/2 users in general clearly like Object Desktop. Can you name any non IBM products that have outsold Object Desktop?
<Tim-IBM IBM's Device Driver Kit for OS/2 Warp is available free of charge online TODAY.
<Ltning mandie: Problem is we never know if it'll result in a new client. :(
<sehh weardell: no idea. i don't use any commercial products like that..
<b_wardell I'd be willign to bet real money that no OS/2 product outside IBM has outsold Object Desktop 2.0 in 1998 for instance. People obviously like it.
<Smeddles i understand the idea of paid support - but if the problem turns out to be a bug in the software the fee should be refunded
<Galileo what about Frogger question, Will there be hardware accerlated OpenGL drivers?
<sehh how abour DVD support?
<Smeddles best hope of hardware opengl is Scitech
<Pilot b_wardell: btw, why OD doesn't work with Aurora?
<sehh or actual REAL multimedia support??
<jjurban I like OD, but I'm stil on 1.5
<Isxios OD2 is great, quick, and without a doubt, the best thing I have added to OS/2 in a long time
*  golan has returned. .gz.
<b_wardell OD works with Aurora. We have it on there.
<golan b_wardell:So what we need is a common place where we can learn to code eficiently for OS/2. A place where we could learn from others, share thoughts, problems, whatever and end to something tangible, isn't it?
*  madodel has OD 2.0 on Aurora and WSe-b
<Nenad b_wardell: I have no use for 64-bit OS/2 _now_, but other companies are working on their OSes to support the new technology, and IBM said "if customers need it, we'll do it", which one can read as "only if we must" :(
<Ltning b_wardell: It breaks things like the WPS restart.
<b_wardell golan: EXACTLY.
<madodel get OD 2 FP1
<Ltning b_wardell: And it provokes an attempted WPS restart if you close and re-open the drives folder in Object Browser.
<Tim-IBM Smeddles: That is the policy that I'm aware of, but it must be resolved with the Support Center. Only the folks charging can issue reimbursements.
<b_wardell Fkxit #1 for OD address that.
<Nenad b_wardell: StarOffice might have outsold OD in 1998 :)
<Ltning ->resulting in a non-recoverable hang.
<Pilot b_wardell: hmm, not here...
<Pilot madodel: you can click on a folder and it opens???
<Ltning b_wardell: no it does not.
<Projects may I remind people that this isn't a "complain about OD" session...
<Tim-IBM Golan: Yes, an open developer community would be very valuable.
<mandie nenad: before or after they offered it free?
<Nenad AFAIK, IBM refunds you if it turns out to be a bug
<Ltning b_wardell: I DO have that fixkit installed, and I still can't restart my WPS, e.g. when updating feature install (which requires a WPS restart)
<madodel0 Pilot: sure can. I just installed SO5.1 with Nenad's help :-)
<madodel0 That's on WSe-b
<Nenad mandie: even before, v4 is very popular in Germany
<b_wardell Ltning: I dunno, you should post on our news group then.
<madodel0 with OD 2.0 installed
<Ltning b_wardell: I did a few days ago actually.
<Ltning Detailed description.
<jjurban Once more, Tim or Brad, what can WE do to help make Warp5 client a reality?
<Ltning b_wardell: and switching of virtual desktop on window activation is too slow :(
<WalterOS2 b_wardell: Remove the Task Manager, and you should be able to restart the WPS.
<Ltning jjurban: I hang on to that question :)
<Galileo ...if anyone is going to build a OS/2 warp client, please check the Netlabs OS/2 wishlist...thats what the OS/2 users wants.
<Galileo http://www.netlabs.org/wishlist/index.html
<b_wardell Well for one thing, you can spread the word about OS/2 users needing to be more self sufficient. Look at this very channel all the people waiting for IBM to do all this stuff for them. (accelerated video drivers, DVD, etc. Linux guys do this themselves, they don't have a company to complain to).
<Nenad open comunity is about to give OS/2 users access to X programs from PM soon, it appears, and maybe even Win32 down on the road :)
<b_wardell OS/2 only really has a chance if the OS/2 community is willing to work on things themselves.
<b_wardell The OS/2 device driver development tools are already available for free for instance.
<Fuzy|ogic I want to know if the bundled development software will compile in both 32 and 16 bit.. If so, then everyone will potentially be able to develop anything given the right knowledge..
<Tim-IBM JJurban: I suggest a couple things: (1) Stay tuned in. (2) Consider helping out as part of a developer community, whether it's helping out with beta testing, writing new device drivers, or otherwise contributing to the common good (e.g. Linux)
<b_wardell Our job will be to make sure these tools are more readily available, easier to use, and that people can more easily get together and work together.
<jjurban what happened to the O-O device driver model?
<mandie Brad: I think there are alot of self-sufficient OS/2 users..atleast those that are qualified to do so...but they sort of lose incentive when it's been said time after time that OS/2 is dead
<sehh b_wardell: i used OD2 for some time and it crashed after i left my machine running for more than 3-4 days.. have these problems been fixed?
<Ltning OS/2's problem is that it appears to users as an alternative to windows - not linux.
<dink sehh: i asked him that question earlier via msg, and he threatened to ban me
<VMan Well, lets change that, Ltning
<Nenad b_wardell: you should make sure that FixPaks are delivered in human-installable format, one that doesn't requres you to read 100K readme file, meaning: unzip and type install :)
<Ltning VMan: Not easy, since most people remember the windows<->os2 battle
<sehh dink: oh..
<Tim-IBM I have to agree with Brad on this. If you bought IBM's OS/2 1.0 you got *most* of the remaining OS/2 versions at no charge. That's not exactly a recipe for "return on investment." :-)
<TheSeer b_wardell: i agree to the the point os/2-users need to help themselves.. but HOW ? We don't have access to the "bugs" in the wps/ mmos/2 and stuff..
<Projects Nenad: there's a readme in the fixpacks? :)
<jjurban I'm an application developer. I know nothing about drivers 'n stuff, but I'll try my best to learn. I'll also help test, debug and (yuck), even document.
<Nenad Projects: yes, 3 or 4 readme's :)
<b_wardell TheSeer: It is up to us (Stardock/IBM) to make it easier to work on this sort of stuff.
<Projects Nenad: oh :) I usually just type "install" :-)
<JimLarson One would think most of the bugs in a 10 year old OS would be fixed by now.
<Tim-IBM IBM simply can't be doing everything in the world, and doing it all for free. Third parties, freeware, shareware, community-based development and testing -- it'll all have to play a part.
*  Projects is always open to beta testing... half my software is alpha/beta software...
<TheSeer b_wardell: hmm.. i know i can debug a code in linux since i have the source.. but how should that be possible in MMOS/2 for example ? the only alternative will be a rewrite..
<Fuzy|ogic I want to know if the bundled development software will compile in both 32 and 16 bit..
<b_wardell That's what Stardock will do with much of the revenue on sucha client, help create an infrastructure.
<Ltning b_wardell: so what will change if Stardock gets this agreement with IBM? Will IBM and Stardock focus more on those things that end-users actually want fixed?
<Ltning That is, things that ease further developmend of/by the community?
*  Pilot will never dare to install a freebee written driver on his OS/2 system
<b_wardell TheSeer: Which part of the OS/2 source do you need? Device driver toolskits include lots of source.
<b_wardell OpenSource is more marketing than reality.
<TheSeer i don't ask for source..
<b_wardell You can create file systems, drivers, shell extensions, etc. for OS/2.
<Ltning WPS/PM sourcecode would be VERY handy - since that's where most bugs are, and most potential in enhanchements.
<Abraxas Tim-IBM Exactly ..... If we, the "USERS" want a more feature packed OS ..... we can do it ....
<b_wardell You don't need the source code to the OS/2 kernal.
<TheSeer i just dunno how to fix the problems in a peace of software i don't have access to..
<Klaus b_wardell: we need mmOS/2 Sources!
<Ltning And afaik - WPS is IBM-only copyright..
<Klaus b_wardell: and WPS Sources...
<b_wardell Klaus: I'd agree with that actually.
<sehh yeah.. the WPS and MMOS2 are the most buggy parts in OS/2
<b_wardell WPS source would be useful though.
<`\\\arvin Hello all
<Klaus b_wardell: these 2 parts are the most buggy ones!
<Nenad some good things happened lately, like Daniela's IDE drivers, much better than those from IBM, supporting ATA-66 and load of chipsets (VIA, Ali, SiS...)
<Ltning Yes definitely
<sehh actualy MMOS2/multimedia support is nearly non-existant!
<Galileo ..We need Quicktime 4 for OS/2 !!!
<Ltning the kernel and base os is robust enough.
<Ltning Galileo: so make someone make it.
<WarpHoss Brad & Tim: Hire Lee Iococca, market it properly w/out the nuns and everything else will fall into place. ;-)
<`\\\arvin g'day Brad
<Klaus b_wardell: and IBM seems to have stopped development of both so why dont release the sources
<sehh Nenad: i had data corruption with that driver
<golan well, time to go to bed. I'll read the rest from the logs tomorrow. Hope this helps reaching a solution or making people more involved in OS/2 developing. :) See you
<Ltning But first, make IBM make mmos2 a useable platform for multimedia
<sehh Nenad: also 4 other people had corruption too
<Fuzy|ogic b_wardell: Can we talk about the development software included or is it "classified"
<JimLarson Bring back Dennis Leary.
<Ltning THEN we can start developing SERIOUS mm applications.
<sehh Nenad: that driver is not to be trusted
<Tim-IBM Abraxas: And IBM will play it's part, and hopefully have a partner like Stardock -- but even that's not enough. Everyone has to pitch in.
<Galileo ..apple doesnt want to give me the source code.
<sehh Nenad: also the author is not very helpful
<Frogger Brad: Can we safely conclude that *if* a Warp 5 client becomes a reality, that IBM will be providing the Fortune 500 support and Stardock will provide the "kitchentop" (man, I hated that denigration) support?
<Abraxas Nenad daniella's IDE drivers are a classic example of what an independent developer can do
<Nenad sehh: it worked great here
<TheSeer b_wardell: i don't ask IBM to fix the bugs though.. i just dunno HOW to help if only IBM is allowed to touch the code ;)
<b_wardell Well releasing source code can be tricky, it depends on who owns what. Microsoft owns chunks of OS/2, even MicroGrafix owns chunks of OS/2.
<Abraxas Tim-IBM I agree 100% ..... EVERYONE has to take a role in supporting/enhancing OS/2
<Nenad isn't micrografx dead?
<Klaus TheSeer: right!
<b_wardell Fuzy: When things progress further, I'll give more specifics on what we'd do. Let's just say, as Tim said, it's pretty cool.
<sehh Why was JFS made? since its slower than HPFS386 and also its not BOOTABLE?
*  Isxios calls for a moment of silence for Cyrix
<sehh the only good things in JFS is the last harddrive/file support
<Abraxas Tim-IBM If we want it badly enough ... we'll take the steps necessary to have it :-)
<Tim-IBM Frogger: We have to be very careful on particulars right now, but you're very close to the mark. To which I'd add that Stardock would turn into one of those "Fortune 500."
<Klaus Tim-IBM: but for Supporting OS/2 it would be nice to get some code from IBM to fix it;-)
<Fuzy|ogic Will Stardock lobby to get other companies to develop OS/2 versions of their apps? i.e. Adobe Acrobat?
*  Projects agress with Abraxas :)
<Frogger Tim-IBM: Wow!
<`\\\arvin Hello tom :)
<b_wardell Fuzy: Stardock will of course do what is in its best interests. And if we are publishing the OS/2 client, then you can imagine what that would include. ;)
<mandie Fuzy: did you check out the new Adobe Acrobat in Java?
<Tim-IBM Fuzy: Adobe just released a Java beta of Acrobat reader, by the way.
<Projects Is Stardock hiring? :)
<Nenad Acrobat in Java?! geez, now that would be slow!
<b_wardell ;)
<_Sid_C hi
<Fuzy|ogic mandie: No, I like the idea of java, but many Java apps seem to fall short for now..
<^Piggy^ Yeah, will there be a feeling that OS/2 is a supported product and stop scaring off developers? Will there be advertising?
<b_wardell Actually, if we do get the OS/2 client moving, we will need to hire a graet deal more OS/2 users.
<mandie Nenad: check out the preview Java 1.1.8..it's fast :)
<Isxios I am really starting to hate even the mention of Java
<tom dhi
<Projects users? Not programmers?
<b_wardell Well first of all, much of OS/2's problems haven't been due to lack of advertising but a hostile press.
<_Sid_C Stardock rulez!
<Frogger brad: Hire a bunch more OS/2 users. hehe.
<sehh JAVA is such shit..
<sehh its slow
<b_wardell You can be assured that a Stardock client would get a LOT of media coverage.
<sehh takes so much memory
<sehh and has no real use..
<VMan The problem of Jave is people do it with Visual (ha!) J ++(ha!)
<Klaus Tim-IBM: a java acrobat is a nice thing, but Java and Netscape are the only two things that crash my system permanently ,-(
<^Piggy^ OK.
<sehh native apps are 1000 times faster..
<sehh and use 10000 times less memory
<Tim-IBM On a separate subject... barring any unforeseen schedule changes, EVERYONE mark your calendar for a July 14th major browser-related announcement.
<sehh why would anyone want to program in java?
<Nenad mandie: still, takes too much RAM to be usefull.... Swing demo managed to allocate 80MBs :(
<b_wardell I think some OS/2 users have complained that Stardock is too mcuh like Microsoft in the way it "hypes" things (I don't agree with that mind you) but I think in this case our abilty to get media coverage would be to OS/2 advantage.
<Fuzy|ogic IBM is doing great things with Java.. I think it is IBM that will make it worth it.
<`\\\arvin b_wardell: I always wanted to know what stardock's position was on the client. Does stardock have a plan to release the client?
<Ltning b_wardell: well you haven't really addressed my question yet, which I think is rather important, considering we probably won't be able to touch the sourcecode of the OS itself..
<mandie sehh: write once..run anywhere :)
<Tim-IBM And that's all I'm going to say about that. :-)
<Isxios I have to say that the ZD writers are certainly quick to call OS/2 a technical marvel now that they helped to dig its grave. Too bad OS/2 refuses to jump into it.
<sehh mandie: at what COST?
*  Abraxas isn't "well versed" on the "particulars" ... but has a working knowledge of how this licensing deal would work ... and believe me .... it's going to take a LOT of commitment on a great many OS/2 users to make this work
*  mandie has marked her calendar!
<sehh mandie: java apps are so slow, and use huge ammounts of memory..
<sehh mandie: you would use an email client that uses 25 megs of ram? (j street)
<sehh thats RIDICULOUS
<Nenad IBM is very slow even when someone wants to help them, can StarDock influence that as a mediator?
<Isxios Re
<_Sid_C Mr. Wardell, For a long time, I hoped Stardock would do something with OS/2 (Warp). Is it beyond you, to actually get at the core of OS/2, and make some system level improvements/enhancements?
<b_wardell \\\arvin: Yes we have a plan. ;)
<Nenad Tim-IBM: just one question, is it any faster? :)
<Isxios brad: at least to MMOS2 or the WPS
*  Projects loves it when a plan comes together :)
<`\\\arvin b_wardell: Sounds cool :) How close is this to being realized? Is it a possibility or in the works at the moment?
<jjurban I have a feeling that if IBM announced a new Warp Client, the press would be very much different than in the past. Many of the pressies realize they made a dreadful mistake, but would like a face-saving way out. Warp 5 would get GOOD PRESS, I bet.
<`\\\arvin Plans are good, yep :)
<b_wardell Well, in the near term it would be difficult. Stardock isnt' capable of doing that kind of thing now. But after a successful Aurora based client launch, who knows. Trust takes time to build and while IBM trusts us a great deal already, giving us the soruce code and letting us loose with it is taking a huge step.
<_Sid_C b_wardell, how good are the communication channels between Stardock and IBM?
<Abraxas Nenad If the support mechanism that we (VOICE) has in mind WORKS as designed ..... IBM won't have to play a major role in the support of OS/2
<Tim-IBM Nenad: IBM does have to be a bit cautious for certain things, and if you've followed the trial coverage you might see a few examples why.
<b_wardell Sid_C: Good enough that Tim from IBM and I are both co-chairing this speak-up. ;)
<Tim-IBM Nenad: You won't get anything more from me. :-)
<_Sid_C ;-)
<Fuzy|ogic If a new Warp client came out at this time in PC history WITH development software... Wow.
<`\\\arvin Hehehe
<Isxios I have faith in Stardock
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: Ok... a big IF question. If negotiations were completed, how long would it take for the new cient to be available?
<b_wardell A Warpclient from us would come with development tools for C and JAVA in the box.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: by the way: you released a new Warp-Server and i didn't see ANYTHING in the Press or on TV don't you want to sell your software? MAYBEE you should do some pr!!
<b_wardell I'd say about 2 months after the signed deal we would have an open beta.
<Frogger Tim-IBM: An off-the-wall question: is there any consideration within IBM for porting the WPS to Linux? Man, that would be truly excellent.
<`\\\arvin Stardock's been around for os/2 for the long haul. Damned nice to see they're still kickin in
<Tim-IBM Sid: At least parts of IBM now know where Livonia is. :-)
<b_wardell Then 6 months after that a release.
<b_wardell thanks.
<`\\\arvin :)
<Abraxas b_wardell "IF" you do a Warp Client .... would it include LVM, JFS and SMP????
<DA_MAN heck..i'l even voluntier to update the old teamos/2 warpPharmy and make it current
<b_wardell Frogger: The problem is, and we've looked at WPS on Linux, is that Linux has no object model. You'd have to make SOM first.
*  Projects directs IBM to the table... "Sign here:_________________________"
<_jm Tim-IBM: he's right. there has been silence over the aurora release. why is that?
<Pilot Tim-IBM: good point -- IBM Russia does not have A SINGLE LINE about Aurora at their web site!!!
<b_wardell Abraxas: Yes.
<mandie <--even knows where Livonia is ;)
<Tim-IBM Klaus: Actually there was some modest mainstream press coverage. CNN included.
<b_wardell Mandie better know! ;)
<TheSeer b_wardell: you have CORBA in GNOME..
<mandie :)
<_Sid_C b_wardell, (Off Topic?): OS/2 could really use a nice mouse control panel, to adjust things like velocity, acceleration, etc, like Logitech's. Is there a reason why this hasen't been done yet?
<Abraxas DA_MAN VOICE is doing just that NOW ..... Join the mailing list .... warpdoctor@os2voice.org
<Tim-IBM There are many, many software releases CNN doesn't cover.
<Frogger Brad: yep. :-)) SOM/DSOM and WPS on Linux. Wouldn't that be excellent?
<b_wardell TheSeer: But it's still very...flakey.
<Pilot Tim-IBM: I'm not talking about CNN, I'm asking about IBM :(((
<b_wardell Sid_C: Yes, because no one has written it. ;)
<TheSeer TheSeer: can you tell me where to BUY a copy of WSeb ? in germay ?? NOONE has it.. :-/
<DA_MAN Tim-ibm: what is ibm's stance on relesing an updated warp4 cleint..
<_Sid_C I could think of many things OS/2 could use. I have a lot of ideas; practical ones too. ;-)
<Tim-IBM Frogger: Not so off the wall, but no, I don't think there are any plans at this stage for that.
*  `\\\arvin likes those Vachon Flaky cakes
<`\\\arvin MMM :P
<TheSeer b_wardell: sure.. but that won't make any influence on the wps anyway..
<DA_MAN tim-ibm:I mean .it shoudlnt be to dificult to slap together a an instalable CD --with OS/2 at the latest FP version or is it?
<`\\\arvin biab ;)
<b_wardell What OS/2 needs more than anything is a feeling of momentum. The difference between Linux and OS/2 is largely one of momentum. People feel like LInux is moving forward where OS/2 is in decline. I think together we can change this feeling.
<TheSeer b_wardell: ok.. i know.. but you might power the corba-project by that ;)
<Projects Vachon Flaky cakes... now there's a blast from the past :)
*  _jm read over the recent new server showdowns with novell/nt/unix, not ibm in there at all. they didn't even place any adds I could find in the trades. This helps not at all.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: I'm thinking about TV-Spots or something like that, IBM told us, that Warp-Server is one of their 4 Strategic platforms, you (IBM) should spend some money to tell that to your customers
<b_wardell The other problem with Linux is revenue. I haven't found a way that commercial companies can easily make money on Linux.
<mandie b_wardell: with everyone into "choice", this is good timing
<_Sid_C b_wardell: Is too hard to write a mouse control panel?
*  Drifter_ has returned. .gz.
<mandie or "could be" good timing :)
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: Are there any WPS enhancements being debated on, like windowsblinds in WinOS2? Like a little makeover or is that territory you guys aren't messing with?
<Isxios _Sid_C: write it yourself
<Fuzy|ogic IBM doesn't advertise specifics, when was the last time you saw an AS/400 commercial?
<`\\\arvin With linux being all GPL i don't see how they can much much if not any money off of apps
<b_wardell Sid_C: Probably not hard but there's no money to be made at it.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: im germany everyone not actually useing os/2 thinks: OS/2 ? Oh. that the os ibm killed years ago, right? "
<Pilot Tim-IBM: with such an attitude who will beleive in any IBM support for OS/2?..
<`\\\arvin er make much, if not any .. sorry
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: and you tell me IBM sees this as a strategic product t?? strange way to show that..
<Klaus Tim-IBM: even on your web-page in germany (the biggest OS/2 customer) or on IBM.com there's no direct link to WarpServer
<Tim-IBM DA_MAN: IBM, at least by itself, has no plans for a Warp client release in 1999, so far as I'm aware. Updates, though -- plenty.
<b_wardell Piggy: WindowBLinds for WinOS2 would be bundled with such a client. We want to eliminate the dual GUI of OS/2 - (WinOS2 and OS/2 GUIs) there'd be only 1 GUI - the OS/2 one. Windows programs would look and feel like OS/2 programs.
<_Sid_C I don't think Linux will be main stream enough to give MS any competition; ergo we need OS/2.
<jjurban IMPORTANT: Will the client, if it happens, still be an IBM product, or Stardock, or both?
*  madodel0 sees a lot netfinity server commercials advertising NT
<Klaus Galileo: right!
<b_wardell It would be both.
<Fuzy|ogic If the new client comes with C development tools, I think we can kill Winos2 after a while. It's only useful if there isn't a Warp version of something. Now we need updated PM/WPS programming books..
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: I ment a little updating of the look of the WPS.
<b_wardell Supported by IBM, published by Stardock.
<_Sid_C Linux is not intuitive enough for the typical home user.
<Galileo any os crap can get to the top with good marketing ... I got an example.
<Ltning b_wardell: what about the win95 emulator/whatever that we KNOW that IBM has developed, but never released?
<Tim-IBM Klaus: It is INCREDIBLY uncommon that IBM advertises a specific product on television -- and OS/2 Warp, at least throughout history, has had more than its fair share.
<tom we need realaudio/2
<Isxios Linux needs to be simplified. None of the average Win users is ever going to switch to Linux when it is so hard to configure and install sometimes
<Frogger Would there be any support for Win98 apps?
<sehh ibm has already killed os/2, os/2 is still alive becauseo of some big corporations.. thats why this ibm guy here has such a bad attitude against os/2..
<scoff b_wardell: I like the uniting of the UI idea
<Klaus Tim-IBM: i've seen advertises for IBM-WindowsNT solutions :-((((((((((((
<Tim-IBM Klaus: But this is incredibly academic. IBM cannot make OS/2 Warp succeed on its own. (Otherwise it would have happened already.) YOU have to help.
<jjurban Heck, I remember the "OS/2 Fiesta Bowl!"
<mandie Fuzy: I don't think the idea is to kill windoze in os/2...there are those that NEED to run windoze apps, and if they are able to do just that under OS/2 then they don't NEED windoze
<Tim-IBM Like I said, IBM will do plenty, but it can't do it all.
<Galileo ..Im sick of this, Im going to buy IBM, how much it cost?
<b_wardell Piggy: That's a tough call. I'd like to, but it's been difficult to find people who know OS/2 well enough. I don't know any workplace shell coding myself for instance. One reason why OD fixkits don't flow out like they used to is purely in the difficulty of getting knowledgable OS/2 developers on-line.
<Frogger sehh: You don't know your history. Tim Sipples has been one of the biggest OS/2 boosters.
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: It would seem that the commercials that were put out for warp, were about nuns in monestaries ... stuff that bears no relevance to Warp's power and performance!
<Nenad b_wardell: why not do WarpBlinds instead of tinketing with Win16 code? :(
<Ltning Tim-IBM: Will IBM then help turn it more towards end-users, since that is what Stardock wishes to do? Then I mean in the fixpak development and such?
<Frogger OK, so what is needed is a true Team OS/2 with out the idiot zealots.
<_Sid_C Did IBM make the OS/2 Warp commercials terrible on purpose; because that is the impression I got from them. No one could purposely do such a rotten job at advertising a product.
<tom I want WarpBlinds =)
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: DAMN !!!! Don't TELL US TO HELP.. IF IBM ALWAYS KILLS EVERYTHING free people try to produce !!
<`\\\arvin Grabbing a hold of the industry by the nads, with a "kickass" support base for the end-user.. and kick-ass commercial base would make it fly
<b_wardell Nenad: Because there's not enough of a market to justify the cost of doing such a product.
<mandie Frogger: have y;ou checked out VOICE lately :)
<Klaus Tim-IBM: in germany you had a big succes with OS/2 Warp 3 (more preloads than windows) but ibm-germany HAD TO STOP adverts because of IBM-USA :-(
<sehh Frogger: do you thin ibm really supports os/2 in the public? if you think that then you are a real moron...
<`\\\arvin so far i'm lucky to see an ad, period
<b_wardell Ltning: IBm woudl be the developer of the core parts of this client, marketing for such a client would have to come from Stardock. And we would target the horizontal market (end users, SOHO, etc.)
<Isxios To be honest, I was not impressed by WindowsBlinds, and WarpBlinds is hardly on my mind at all
<Ltning b_wardell: Did you see my question about the win9x emulator??
<`\\\arvin b_wardell: i would pay out $ for os/2blinds in a second.. a native version
<Klaus Tim-IBM: i'm willing to help OS/2 to succes, but WE CAN'T DO IT IF some guys at IBM TRY TO KILL OS/2
<Ltning b_wardell: Yes that is good. But will IBM change it's development focus to the things that is more important for end users?
<`\\\arvin i'm sure there are lots of us who would support your efforts.. we're here
<b_wardell Isxios: WindowBlinds is not a released product, it's a bit premature to be impressed or not impressed with it.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: for what i feel and i know many are feeling IBM is stuck to OS/2 because some big customers resist on it..
<Nenad b_wardell: but if you're doing it for the potentional client allready?! you beleive client will sell better if win-os2 has warp buttons and icons?
<Tim-IBM Marvin (et. al.): If we want to revisit a decade or more of IBM's advertising (and its flaws) we can do it, but somehow I don't think that's going to make a bit of difference for the future.
<tom uhoh
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: ya i agree
<Isxios OK, I was unimpressed by the preview of it
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: It would be nice to offer VMWare a little "encouragment" for an OS/2 version though. :)
<b_wardell Yea, it's in beta, I'm not sure what you're expecting out of a beta. Each version gets better.
<Isxios Proably because I actually like the way the WPS looks
<Pilot None we users can do will help OS/2 if IBM decides (already decided?) to kill OS/2, that's it.
<Isxios mostly
<sehh Frogger: now was that clever? instead of answering me and admitting that ibm give its full boost to os2, you just kick me.. lame..
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: and loosing those customores is kinda more expensive then spending some $ on doing a new server..
<b_wardell With WindowBlinds, I can make Windows look like OS/2. I have my NT machine here looking like OS/2 2.0 for instance.
<Klaus Pilot: 100% agree
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: can you tell me, why i should use an OS/2 Server ??? IBM pushes windoze NT and Linux for everything..
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: what do u need OS/2 for ??
<Pilot The only thing we can do then -- help Gnome and KDE people port WPS to Linix :(((
<madodel0 Stop the personal flaming/bating please.
<scoff b_wardell: one WPS improvement would be to fix how the INI files get clogged with old and invalid references, build the cleaning functionality of checkini right into the system
<b_wardell You guys are talking like IBM is a monolithic company.
<Ltning b_wardell: again, about the win9x emulator.. Or perhaps I should ask Tim about that?
<Nenad b_Wardell: btw, that new game, is that going to be a Monopolization with not so good graphics?
<_Sid_C I was speaking to a friend of mine at work, who does consulting in the software industry, and he seems to think that IBM is gearing up for something HUGE, and that MS should be worried. Do you anything about this. Does IBM have an ACE up their sleeve?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: and the next problem.. if you have 100% WinNT-CLients in a network, why should a company spend a lot of money on a guy adminsitrating an OS/2-Server ????
<b_wardell There will be no Win95 emulator.
<Isxios b_wardell: I'm not knocking you or your product, I just said I wasn't impressed. I am more worried about greater things than how the WPS looks
<Ltning b_wardell: there is already one internally in IBM!!!!
<Tim-IBM IBM *always* will provide choice. Warp Server for e-business is a FANTASTIC server -- and we'll say so. But if you want an NT or Linux solution, we'll help there too.
<b_wardell We're not going to get into a Win32 compatibility thing. OS/2 will have to get native software of its own as well as work better with JAVA software.
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: Is there any chance of "wooing" VMWare?
<jjurban We don't want no steenkin' W95 emulator.
<Klaus all if you're looking for an win9x emulator check www.os2.org for "Project Odin"
<VMan Odin is no emulator
<^Piggy^ some of us would like the option of an emulator.
<WalterOS2 IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHY OS/2 was killed, so see http://os.about.com/library/blnews.htm and STOP ABUSING TIM who is nice enought to come here on his spare time!!!!!
<tom wine (www.winehq.com) will be ported to os/2 soon
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: Sure.. as much as M$ gives you the choice of the Browser.. hey wake up.. If you don't PICK on Getting OS/2 nobody at IBM even KNOWS OS/2 is alive...
<Isxios b_wardell: I happen to stand up for you quite a bit when bitch fests brake out over SD
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: Because frankly Warp Server manages NT clients (even if that's all you have) 10 times better than anything else out there. (Check out WorkSpace for Windows.)
<Klaus VMan: ok, but.. you know what i mean ,-)
<Nenad b_wardell: like CMD.EXE or WPS recognizing .CLASS as executable extension? Linux 2.2 does it, I beleive
<b_wardell If people want to run Windows 98 programs, they should run Windows 98. We'll be trying to encourage people to write and work with native OS/2 software.
<mandie Walter: I actually think Tim is being used as a scapegoat...it's IBM that is being attacked
<_Sid_C I prefer OS/2 be all native; nothing to do with MS (Windows, any flavor).
<Tim-IBM But we're getting pretty far off topic. I'm not here to defend IBM for its perceived or real flaws. I'm here to try to provide information about the future, to the extent I can.
<b_wardell Isxios: Thanks.
<Tim-IBM So let's not dwell on the past, OK? It's water under the bridge.
<mandie We all appreciate the time and support that Tim puts into the os2 community
<Ltning b_wardell: I agree on that. But if the product is already made and functioning...
<_Sid_C OS/2 native, kills Windows native.
<tom b_wardell: but we know for a fact real is NOT going to port realaudio to OS/2, so we need to rely on an emulator....
<VMan Moderate this thing. All this flaming is getting annoying
<Ltning Anyway, I'm looking forward to see what StarDock can do out of this, in cooperation with IBM. It is just that I see many things that doesn't seem to have been debated enough...
<WalterOS2 Mandie: it still really bugs me: it's hardly Tim's fault!
<b_wardell Is there a reel audio for Linux?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: sorry.. don't wanna attack you.. But it's damn feeling like running against a wall..
<jadeh I agree with b_wardell; we don't need Win32 or 9X apps. Native OS/2 apps would be better. Look at StarOffice, for example. The latest version is pretty good, and it's a good product.
<mandie Walter: I'm sure it's not intended personally against tim :)
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i called IBM to get a copy of warp Server and they didn't even KNOW that they still sell it..
<Frogger Brad: Yes, there is real audio for Linux.
<VMan jadeh: right
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: don't tell me that's offering a choice..
<Nenad jadeh: Odin gives you native OS/2 apps
<Nenad jadeh: from Win32 binaries, that is
<Isxios Tim-IBM: Can you say with any certainty, that IBM would stand behind Stardock to assure that OS/2 succeeded in the future, or will they change their minds in a few months and drop this the way they drop so many other things>
<awillis The only thing I need win compatibility for is games
<_Sid_C b_wardell, I never got a chance, so here it is: Thanks for giving us Object Desktop (I own version 1.5), and the many other OS/2 programs.
*  Projects could care less about realaudio... but one app that I use daily is a problem
<Klaus Tim-IBM: if even Lotus (100% IBM) dosn't want to develop a new OS/2 Notes Client (and dosn't want to sell their SmartSuite to me until i ordered >100 Licences) how do you think we can motivate others to develop an OS/2 Product?
<b_wardell Frogger: So we'd need to make a convincing case that a ReelAduio for OS/2 would be in their best interests.
<Galileo Tim-IBM, why OS/2 doesnt have little details ??? (like autoscrolling bars or a way to know how many bytes are inside a folder instead of dir /s) That doesnt need hard thinking or programing. Little details make things beautifull.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: and many companys kick out os/2 because they don't know anyone who can HANDLE it..
<b_wardell Afterall, ReelAudio is getting killed slowly by MediaPlayer on Windows.
<awillis real work is done with native software
<JE_Hoover Brad / Tim ... Will IBM / Stardock release the code that was released around the date W4 was released that runs W95 software but that IBM did not release ... will IBM also release the transperancy code that was in the Beta of W4 that allowed transparent windows ... and as for Odin .. project Odin was commerciallly done by IBM at the time W4 was done but that code was never released
<b_wardell Those who pray to the Microsoft gods are subject to their wrath as well.
<tom b_wardell: NOT! every single live audio station that I've seen uses ra g2 .. not windows media
<b_wardell Sid_C: thanks!
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: There are 100,000 other products in the same category. We're better than we have been, but if you're going to measure IBM by whether one (or even a few) of 280,000 employees knows every answer when you call out of the blue...
<Nenad b_Wardell: btw, that new game, is that going to be a Monopolization with not so good graphics?
<b_wardell tom: Perhaps presently, but more and more people I know have stopped using it in favor of Windows Media player.
<jjurban ... and those who sell their souls to the Microsoft demons are subject to collection too.
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: But what are YOU going to do? What can YOU do to make OS/2 Warp a success? IBM spent millions (and will spend millions more, indefinitely).
<tom hmm..
<_Sid_C b_wardell, Your certainly welcome. I hope to buy more OS/2 software from Stardock, in the near future.
<b_wardell Nenad: Yes, our next OS/2 game, called FUD (Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt) will be simlar to Monopolization.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: if i call a sales person and ask for an NT-Solution.. or .. better example.. try to get a Thinkpad without paying for windoze ! :)
<b_wardell Heck, maybe we'd bundle it with the client.
<mandie Tim: what can we, the common desktop user, do to make OS/2 a success?
<Frogger The trouble with new native OS/2 software is the history behind OS/2 and IBM support (or lack of) of ISV. Who is willing to stake their companies future on it when IBM hasn't gotten behind it?
<Projects Tim-IBM: I'll do whatever I can... just point me in the right direction :)
<mandie Projects: exactly
<awillis Ibm now sells osless thinkpads (they market it for linux
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i don't have millions to spend.. all i can do is offer my spare time to support it.. and i already do.. I code the webpages of netlabes and co-administrate the os2.org servers..
<Nenad I don't undestan how you people can read all this and find some time to type... :)
*  Projects has staked his company's future on OS/2...
<Galileo ..I put and web site about how configure OS/2 on a Aptiva 2162, because that aptiva doesnt have IBM's support for OS/2.
<Frogger Tim-IBM: Yes, IBM spent a lot of money. Somehow it seemed rather ineffectual, sorrowfully.
<Galileo ...so dont look at me.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i do support for a lot of people on irc and i try to help companys using os/2..
<b_wardell Frogger: One thing I should mention, this OS/2 client we speak of will NOT be called OS/2.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i guess that's enough for me as a single person..
<jjurban jjurban has staked his company's and his own future on OS/2.
<madodel0 awillis: where? I haven't seen any non-wintrash thinkpads
<Ltning Tim-IBM: IBM also spent a lot of money creating a win95-os2. Too bad you couldn't release it. But perhaps you can at this time?
<Isxios OS/2000?
<Nenad OS/2 Web sites are like isolated islands...
*  sehh hopes that the client will have real multimedia support unlike the current nonexistant support
<b_wardell This is not a bash IBM channel guys.
<Projects b_wardell: so what's in a name? It's the underlying product that counts
<b_wardell Tim's on your side.
<sehh Nenad: check out http://www.warp.in-uk.net :)
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: What would it be called then?
<Isxios what name are you thinking of?
<Nenad someone should create portal and search engine, lot's of info is wasted
<Tim-IBM Mandie: Make reasonable demands, be willing to pay for quality software and service, and continue to provide *constructive* criticism (and, yes, even a compliment or two when merited :-)).
<b_wardell Projects: I agree, but from a perspection standpoint, it'll be able to avoid that "Isn't OS/2 dead" crap.
<sehh b_wardell: but it is.. its their fault that they killed os/2..
<jjurban Warp 5.
<b_wardell perception I mean.
<Klaus b_wardell: we don't want to bash IBM, we're just talking about Warp5 and marketing ,-)
<Frogger It doesn't matter what it's called, everyone will know it as OS/2.
<^Piggy^ New name would be a good idea....
<TheSeer IBM spent a lot of money on os/2ppc and didn't release it..
<awillis madodol0: I don't remember the where just the fact I saw them
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: Excellent! That's good!
<Galileo lets e-mail Lou Gerstner and show him how we feel !!!! http://www.ibm.com/scripts/email-lvg.pl
<b_wardell IBm would have nothing to do with the WArp 5 client marketing.
<sehh Klaus: you mean the BAD marketing..
<Isxios b_wardell: What name are you thinking of?
<WalterOS2 sehh: Before you blame IBM alone, go read the articles at http://os2.about.com/library/blnews.htm.
<Klaus sehh: i'm thinking of "learning from mistakes" ,-)
<VMan Brad: do you have any names in mind?
<awillis b_wardel: what type fo marketing is stardock looking to do then?
<Ltning Why does neither Tim or Brad answer my question? Should be straight-forward enough..
<b_wardell TheSeer: That wasn't OS/2's fault, that was the hardware guy's faults. The entire OS/2 for the PowerPC project was based on the idea that PowerPC would be orders of magnitude faster than Intel. Remember the whole "the x86 line has too much baggage to keep up." well, they were wrong and so that killed OS/2 for the PowerPC.
<WarpHoss yes mandie!> what can I the avg joe os/2 end user do to ensure warp5 clients' success in profitability for tim, IBM, Brad and all the os/2 community? ? Brad and tim?>
<Tim-IBM Ltning: What's your question?
<Klaus b_wardell: that's good, I hope you'll succeed...
<b_wardell VMan: We have the name picked out but aren't releasing it yet.
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: What companies name would it be sold under? Both?
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: Buying a few copies helps!
*  mandie put the channel in mode +secret
<maximum I would go for even a 32-bit OS/2 on a PowerPC.
<Projects "a rose by any other name is still a rose"
*  Nenad is practicing dark magic on b_wardell's head
<b_wardell Stardock.
<mandie brad: ok, ou can tell us now :)
<TheSeer b_wardell: well.. a PPC is way faster then Intel..
<Ltning Tim-IBM: About the already-made win95-os2. I know it exist, I have seen it. I know that you had problems releasing it with warp4, and I understand that. But perhaps it's about time to re-think that question now?
<Klaus b_wardell: i'll write an article about the Warp5 client, and believe me, it will be positive..
*  Nenad is reading...
<b_wardell It would be Stardock powered by IBM OS/2 technology on the front box.
<b_wardell Klaus: Cool. tahnks.
<_Sid_C One thing is for certain; if OS/2 is ever to become a choice for the people who currently use Windows 9.x, a very good arguement for the switch to OS/2 MUST be made. It must be made in a way that is convincing and desireable. Also, OS/2 needs ADVERTISEMENT, and game support. Look what MS did with an inferior product and a lot of GOOD marketing. How about an awesome product (OS/2), and excellent marketing.
<Isxios StardockOS
<mandie b_wardell: does GDOUG get to pick out the box cover :)
<Tim-IBM But, most importantly, try not to "cheese off" anyone you meet who isn't "enlightened." :-) Nobody wants to talk to a fanatic. :-)
<^Piggy^ b_wardell: So it wouldn't be a total dumping of the OS/2 name?
<Ltning StarOS
<TheSeer Isxios: in short SOS ? *EG*
<Nenad b_wardell: any chance of replacing LVM.EXE with something more intuitive and consistent?
<Isxios :)
<StevenL A while ago, it was mentioned C and Java tools would be bundled. What about CPP which is better for native appications?
<scoff And now that Linux has made preinstall inroads into HP, Dell and Compaq, will os/2 be preloaded?
<b_wardell mandie: Grin.
<Ltning Tim-IBM: Did you get my question this time?
<jadeh _Sid_C: One strong feature OS/2 has is stability!
<sehh Nenad: LVM is great!
<Fuzy|ogic C is what PM seem sot be centered around.
<sehh Nenad: the text mode LVM that is..
<Klaus Isxios: no StardockOS sounds like a gamers platform I would prefer the name for the PowerPC OS/2 "WORKPLACE OS"
<b_wardell Nenad: Probably not in the first version.
<sehh Nenad: the java gui LVM is just a shit front-end..
<Projects Tim-IBM: I talk to fanatics on a daily basis... all MS fanatics. I know exactly where you're coming from...
<b_wardell Why do people run Linux as a client?
<Fuzy|ogic C is what PM seems to be centered around.
<Isxios Don't like that
<Tim-IBM Sid: It is unlikely anyone is going to go head-to-head against Windows, nor would I recommend it. There are other ways to try to compete.
<WarpHoss B&T?> How do we convince others to do the same when they are already brainwashed into believing is a way of life?
<TheSeer If you search for software, stuff to be coded, check out www.netlabs.org
<Isxios Millenium OS
<^Piggy^ I like Linux as a client. Stable and powerful.
<TheSeer if you don't find it, add your with to the wishlist..
<_Sid_C Tim-IBM, okay ;-)
<Nenad sehh: LVM user interface is very incosistent... combines event-driver with menu-guided design
<Tim-IBM Ltning: No, where's your question?
<StevenL Mesa is CPP and I could go on...
<Ltning Tim-IBM: About the already-made win95-os2. I know it exist, I have seen it. I know that you had problems releasing it with warp4, and I understand that. But perhaps it's about time to re-think that question now?
<Ltning Tim-IBM: there.
<Ltning :)
<Galileo ....I know, lets put a Sport Illustrated chick on the OS/2 box cover!!!!!
<Tim-IBM We have a name -- it's a good one.
<sehh Nenad: the text mode lvm is great.. dunno what you mean
<Frogger Brad: Why do I run Linux as a client. (1) Cuz it's fun (2) It has a bright future (3) it's a happening place. :-)
<Nenad sehh: later... :)
<_Sid_C Tim-IBM, in NUMBERS, does IBM dwarf MS. Is IBM worth more than MS? I know IBM's stock is worth more than MS's.
<b_wardell Frogger: Exactly. You mind if I use that response?
<Nenad Piggy: Linux is stable because it has no features ;)
<JimLarson My name choice is "I Can't Believe it's not Windows"
<Klaus Tim-IBM: it would be REALLY great if IBM could release some OS/2 code, where they stoped development (like MMOS/2, WPS, WEB-EXPLORER and THE WIN95 EMU)
<Fuzy|ogic frogger: as may a new Client be :)
<Frogger Brad: It's yours.
<^Piggy^ Nenad: So is NT.
<Frogger Fuzy|ogic: Oh, I hope so. OS/2 is where my heart is.
<jjurban How about "Un-Windows"
<b_wardell I like JimLarson's name.
<b_wardell Maybe that's what we should call it.
<TheSeer aaaaaaaaaaarg
<Fuzy|ogic No, OS/2 shouldn't associated with Windows at all. It's Big, Blue, different, better...
<Isxios Nova OS
<Projects hehehe
<sehh how about "I knew there was something better than windows"
<Nenad Borg 2000 :)
<Ltning TheSeer: to move users from windows we do. :(
<^Piggy^ With the slogan "Kinda like Windows, except it doesn't suck!"
<Isxios Phoenix 2000
<Tim-IBM Ltning: No, I don't think so (and I would dispute the premise of your question).
<Klaus Fuzy|ogic: right!, if I want winsucks, i'd buy the original
<maximum No, we need to run Windows native mode on OS/2.
<Nenad ^Piggy^: "if Windows sucked, it would be good for something" :)
<_Sid_C Warp 2000: Code name: ORION
<Galileo TheSeer: we only need all the Win95 apps for OS/2.
<Ltning Why does the linux world embrace WINE and such so much then?
<Frogger Well, Warp 4 was Merlin. I'd like Warp 5 to be Osprey. :-) Or Kestrel.
<TheSeer aaaaaaaarg..
<TheSeer you all should read a F*CKIN NEWSREADER..
<Ltning Tim-IBM: Meaning you are denying that this product has been developed within IBM?
<Isxios no birds
<Tim-IBM Sid: Microsoft has a higher market capitalization than IBM, I believe.
<jjurban Or Peregrine
<b_wardell Another FAQ: Object Desktop would NOT be bundled. There'd be Stardock technologies included but the product Object Desktop would not be bundled. We want to keep the client as lean as possible while advancing it at the same time.
<TheSeer go to www.netlabs.org and check out for ODIN..
<VMan Nenad: Borg 2000? Isn't that NT 5's name?
<Nenad Warp 5 should be Vulture :)))
<TheSeer that'll be much better then a stinkin emulation..
<jjurban Tim, they're getting closer in market cap now.
<Galileo ...I would like to be IO.
<WarpHoss If I wanted emulation I would let someone else sign my work.
<Projects hahahahaha
<b_wardell Well guys, let's finish up, I'm goign to head out here shortly.
<Klaus b_wardell: what do you want to bundle with the warp5 client?
<jjurban Galileo first saw IO.
<Isxios Personally, I like Athena
<b_wardell Any last minute questions?
<StevenL DOS hint. MS controls Windows. If you want to sell PC's this influences business decisions. Regardless of how big you are.
<WarpHoss B_WARDELL> When?
<Galileo .or maybe Callisto.
<^Piggy^ Hey, all I was suggesting was a little light pressure to VMWare for an OS/2 version. If someone doesn't want it don't buy it.
<maximum Just don't use Warpicity.
<jjurban Brad, Tim, Stardock, IBM --- Godspeed!
<_jm Tim-IBM: Does lotus have plans to market a notes client/server for warp4? Tha
<Nenad b_wardell: any _completely_ new OS/2 software from SD this year?
<Tim-IBM Ltning: I'm not denying that IBM works on a bunch of things... that don't ship because they aren't complete (and/or completable).
<Frogger Tim-IBM: MS does have a higher market cap than IBM, it's true. It's also insane! The P/E ratio is horrendous! I think it's a bubble. And one that might burst if they have some justice done to them in the anti-trust trial.
<_Sid_C b_wardell, please before you go; what is a good way for ppl to get suggestions to you?
<mandie Brad and Tim: Thank you for all of the information presented tonight and as always, your ever faithful support to the OS/2 community :)
<b_wardell Klaus: I can't yet specify that. But it'll be super cool I assure you. We have one specific feature that NO OS has that when people hear about it everyone will think that every OS should have. I can't emntion it because other OS's will copy this feature I'm sure.
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: I would think IBM has the $ to start expanding os/2's multimedia capabilities, working with other companies to make it a competitive OS of choice for hi-end development tools.. (AutoCAD, Photoshop, SoftImage, LightWave etc) ... What's your position on this? OS/2 certainly has the raw power to handle it.
<Isxios b_wardell: Do you believe in this project? Not just from a financial point of view, but deep down, do you believe in it?
<jadeh b_wardell: I'd like to see improved TCP/IP support (just my 2 cents)
<_Sid_C b_wardell, Suggestions for Warp, software, etc..
<Ltning Tim-IBM: Seeing word97 running on an os2 desktop is near-complete enough for me ...
<Nenad Sid_C: use SD's news server
<b_wardell Nenad: Depends on what you mean by completely new.
<WarpHoss >mandie agreed> Thank-you -thankyou thank you both!
<PaperMach Thanks Tim and Brad--Good night
<b_wardell Stellar Frontier is completely new for OS/2.
<b_wardell Oh couple things:
<b_wardell Stardock has a news server:
<b_wardell news.stardock.com
<Frogger Goodnight Tim, Brad. And thanks.
<b_wardell There is a stardock.os2 group and a stardock.os2.support news group
<StevenL Nite Tim, Brad...
<Isxios No answer?
<b_wardell We also have an IRC channel on EFNet (#stardock)
<Galileo ....Im going to name my first son Rumpelstiky if you put autoscrolling bars on OS/2 client Brad.
<VMan Screw photoshop. We have GIMP
<Tim-IBM JM: Domino server, absolutely -- you can download the beta at http://notes.net. A browser (Netscape) is a wonderful Domino client, and the 4.5.7b (+) works pretty well for the rest (and is still supported). Beyond that, we'll see...
<Klaus b_wardell: super cool is nice, but please let the OS be rock solid and usable too ,-)
<Nenad b_wardell: well... something new :) I don't know, I don't use OD and I do my own themes... something fresh :)
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: Getting an exceptionally awesome Graphics and sound base for that, could make game & app development for stardock and other companies flourish! Direct-X like libs stuff would be great!
<mandie b_wardell: much bashing on the efnet channel? or good discussion?
<_Sid_C Thanks Tim, and Brad for all that you have done for us, and continue to do. Brad, thanks again for supporting OS/2; I beleave in you and your company! ;-)
<Ltning mandie: both, I would guess...
<b_wardell Klaus: It's not the type of feature you'd expect from us, it doesn't harm stability at all (not even potentially).
<b_wardell Thanks Sid.
<Nenad Arvin: SciTech will provide DirectX like primitives in their OS/2 drivers
<_Sid_C welcome
<madodel0 Just a reminder that next month #voice will welcome Lynn Maxson as our guest in a Speakup event on his Warpicity Proposal - 7/12/99 8PM EDT
<b_wardell Warpicity?
<mandie WArpi :)
<Nenad they also said they'll try to convince IBM to include those into regular OS/2 drivers so developers can use them (including 3D)
<WarpHoss ok B&T> Christmas? or sooner? I really do have a budget and it hinges on your decisions...
<b_wardell Before end of this year.
<Tim-IBM Well, my closing thought is that Stardock and IBM both are going to be working toward a realistic business plan. This has got to be sustainable.
<_Sid_C b_wardell, whatever the outcome, live long and prosper.
<b_wardell If things aren't settled by then, it won't ever be settled probably.
<maximum You eat twenty minutes into my time at WarpStock98 and you miss it!
<madodel0 b_wardell: Read the June VOICE newsletter tomorrow. :-)
<Nenad who is Lynn Maxson?
<Isxios b_wardell: Do you believe?
<Ltning b_wardell, Tim-IBM I wish you the best of luck. One piece of advice, though: Listen to your customers... They are your living. :)
<b_wardell Hope you can edit the log to be readable with all our chattering.
<mandie maximum: tell him who you are :)
<_jm thanks Tim-IBM for talking with us.
<Tim-IBM And we have to be realistic about what can and cannot be delivered immediately in terms of enhancements. But, while saying both those things, I'm hopefully that we'll be able to get something new and wonderful to market. We'll try.
<b_wardell I agree.
<maximum maximum is Lynn Maxson.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: can we do an IBM<>OS/2 speakup in the near future on this chanal? please
*  mandie met Lynn at Warpstock 98 :)
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: There are developers here in this channel at this very minute *cough*
<b_wardell Oi, full blown "Abuse IBM". heh. ;)
<VMan Speakup with Netlabs!!!!
<Abraxas -> Speaking of which (logfile) ...
<madodel0 Nenad: Read the June VOICE Newsletter tomorrow. There are a couple of articles on Warpicity
<Nenad maximum: and who are you and what is your proposal? :)
<Isxios Well, good night.
<WarpHoss Positive Progress and Release is all I am asking B&T!
<Swanee Brad & Tim, Thank you. I had a hard time keeping up :-)
<b_wardell Good night all.
<`\\\arvin b_wardell: LOL
<mandie g'night Brad
*  Abraxas is looking for a volunteer to edit tonight's logfile :-)))
<mandie err..frogboy :)
<FrogBoy ribbit.
<mandie lol
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: again, sorry fur crushing all those things on you but.. If IBM markets OS/2 Warp Server as an e-Business-thing.. why isn't there a multi-user-system in the tcp/ip ??
<Isxios FrogBoy: Do you believe?
<Tim-IBM Good night, Brad. We'll be in touch. :-)
<Projects hehehe
<VMan Hey, frogboy, next time I will get ya in Stellar Frontier (you humilliated me)
<Nenad multi-user would be nice...
<maximum Nenad, read the June VOICE newsletter.
<Projects Thanks Tim/Brad for your time
<VMan Thanks
<Nenad maximum: ok, ok... I read those regularily
*  Longstaff thanks tonight's guests for a lively and provocative meeting
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM & Brad: Thanks taking the time out of your schedules to show up tonight. Was great having a chance to talk with you'se!
<WarpHoss the big guns are leaving ,, what can we .22 calibres do?
<Drifter_ Well it looks like it's over
<Nenad restarting WPS and logging in would be nice, too
<FrogBoy Gnight Tim. Good night Johnboy!
*  Projects prods madodel: see, one more person reads the newsletter :)
<Ltning Nenad: wps can't be restarted with OD installed :)
<Gayland Thanks! and good evening.
<^Piggy^ See ya FrogBoy
<Tim-IBM I think I can stay for 10 minutes or so...
<Nenad local security based on SES would be nice, too
<Nenad Ltning: hehe :)
<Tim-IBM But Brad has to head out...
<Drifter_ Any1 who has a Iomega Ditto Max tape drive and would like to beta test a new release of BackMaster /msg me
*  Swanee will have his resume on Brad's doorstep in the morning
<`\\\arvin you go, swanee :)
<`\\\arvin hehehe
<maximum Tim-IBM: You have two years of Software Choice behind you. Why not lower the subscription price to an affordable $20 or $40 per year?
<Fuzy|ogic I am most interested in the development software, when will that be open for discussion? That might be what saves us..
<Nenad Tim-IBM: are you aware of IBM working on some major improvement to the core base OS/2 operating system right now? :)
<jjurban Tim, well I asked Brad about Object REXX and VoiceType Dictation. I really hope these can be included, at least in some kind of PlusPak (at a price).
<Isxios Gee, I guess he didn't believe. Was it such a strange question?
<Tim-IBM Maximum: Simply because of cold, hard mathematics. All that stuff (free and fee) costs money to develop.
<scoff Tim: is a fall out from the DOJ trials that MS can not up the price of windows to OEMs that also offer OS/2 and or Linux? and will this mean we might see os/2 preloads finallY?
<mandie time=$
<Tim-IBM Maximum: But if the Stardock proposal flies, Software Choice gets more valuable.
<Drifter_ Klaus: there is no 4.0, this is the newest build it's 3.2h
<maximum I paid $1500 dollars to Software Choice, 4 clients and 1 Advanced Servier. I lost on the gamble on the client, made out on the server.
*  madodel0 bought an advanced DevCon subscription and d/l'd WSe-b
<jjurban I can offer to test, debug and even document Object REXX and VoiceType.
<`\\\arvin $1500 is a lot of cash
*  sehh is away, auto-gone [tv/lp]
<Tim-IBM Maximum: Yes you did! Software Choice for Warp Server was (is) a great deal! We'll work on the client, too...
<Nenad Tim: what, what? :)
<maximum Tim-IBM: Cold hard mathematics says that most people who used Software Choice did not pay a dime. So why not collect 20 or 30 dollars from them to help defray costs?
<`\\\arvin whUUHH?! `oO'
<Tim-IBM Nenad: We just shipped a huge one! Warp Server for e-business. Some of the most radically useful core enhancements in years!
<Nenad Tim: I allways hoped to see VoiceType on Software Choice :)
*  WarpHoss warphoss wanted udb/2 5.2 trail and got shipped bad disks and can't get them replaced wil this happen to new client?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: are there any plans to make use of the LanServer-User-System for any other server-component ??
<`\\\arvin BAH
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: How about making/releasing a ViaVoice GOLD for OS/2?
<Swanee jjurban: I'd like to see VoiceType back in it too. (or via voice)
<JimLarson JimLarson subscribed to Software Choice and feels he got jipped royally!
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: afaik ViaVoice has been developed, just not released ;)
<Fuzy|ogic Voice needs an update...
<Nenad Tim-IBM: yes, I know, but most of it does not show on the surface... what I really need is user-controlable NLS support, like ability to select (prepare) more than two codepages and to select any of those
<jjurban I gave up hope on ViaVoice. I'd settle for VoiceType.
<Tim-IBM And I did warn everyone to get Software Choice for Warp Server, didn't I? :-)
<`\\\arvin Voicetype is just slow
<Galileo ..VIAVOICE 98 !!!
<mandie that you did
<madodel but not everyone has a copy of Warp Server
<Nenad Tim-IBM: warn us to get one for the client! ;)
<Abraxas Tim-IBM Yes, you did :-))) .... I think, though, that Devcon is a better choice
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: i'm a student and developer here.. not a millionaire! :P
<`\\\arvin =)
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: Um, you're on the right track, but I think that's an enhancement coming in 2000.
<WarpHoss Abraxas> agreed.
<Swanee Nenad: :-)
<Nenad Abraxas: you can use that version of Aurora only for development, I beleive
<Galileo tsipple@us.ibm.com
<`\\\arvin Being able to get Academic versions of Warp here would be nice
<Galileo [20:29] thanks!
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: kewl.. any more details on that ??
<`\\\arvin Academic pricign on development tools too, would be nice
<Tim-IBM Marvin: If you have a finite budget, you have to pick the top priorities, and right now that isn't ViaVoice for the Warp family.
<Galileo oops !!
<WalterOS2 Tim-IBM: I need to be going, but I want thank you for putting up with us and giving us your time tonight. I really appreciate the support you give the OS/2 Community.
<Fuzy|ogic I got Warp for $85 adac and VAC++ 4 for $99 ACAD...
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i need to handle a lot of stuff and it actually looks like i need to switch to linux to have the security it needs..
<Nenad mark the words "right now"! :)
<maximum I belong to DevCon as well, most recently as a Premier user. I agree with Mark. Maybe if IBM did not have so many fee options.:)
<Tim-IBM Nenad: I know you've asked about this in the Stardock news forums. But Warp Server for e-business just improved the multilanguage support again.
*  `\\\arvin cannot get Academic pricing here in Ontario, Canada.
<maximum Yes, thank you, Tim.
*  WarpHoss thanks our knight "in underthecoversarmour" Tim_IBM.
<Nenad Tim-IBM: probably, but still not at Win95 level :( I can't type in more languages even in two separate programs, not to mention the same program
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: a question, kinda of topic, where do i get a US (!) copy of WSEB in germany ?
<Pliny Thanks much Brad & Tim!
<Abraxas Tim-IBM .. I'd like to get a an official IBM interpretation of the following
<Tim-IBM Thank you, Walter.
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: is there a reason for that? i was able to get it at some point, but not anymore. Also, with regards to multilanguage support - a friend of mine who types in Hebrew, would like to get hebrew support under warp 4, but can't seem to. Know of a solution you could point him to?
<Nenad Tim-IBM: the voice type issue wouldn't be so hurting if OS/2 never had such thing, but since v4 was marketed as "voice enabled" and even sold with microphones, it's a big set-back now :(
<Abraxas Tim-IBM in the WS-eB "License Information" it staes:
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: Warp (client) is a distinctly single user system, and I don't see that changing immediately.
<Nenad arvin: aurora has hebrew support included
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: WorkSpace is much different, though.
<`\\\arvin Nenad: Aurora is also $1500 :) He bought Warp 4
<Nenad mark the words "immediately" :))
<Nenad `arvin: hopefuuly, the client would be less :)
<Abraxas "Authorization for Copy7 and Use on Home/Portable Computer ..... Not Applicable for this program"
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: Hah! :-)
<`\\\arvin for himself, his family and can't get the typing to go from right-to-left
<Nenad `arvin: I'm just saying that it's improved, but not really flexible enoguh
<Nenad enough
<`\\\arvin nor can he display hebrew fonts
<`\\\arvin Nenad: ah ok :)
<Drifter_ laters all
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: well... what i have in mind - or need - is a WarpServer-Based thing were i can allow telnet-access limited to some actions and directroys..
<`\\\arvin Cya Drifter
<Drifter_ Thanks Tim
<WarpHoss Tim_ibm> I see a reference to Host on demand at work does that mean I can access that with OS/2 or does it prevent me since "they " run NT?
<Tim-IBM TheSeer: Wow! Interesting question! Probably find a friendly guy in Germany at IBM like me.
<Abraxas Tim-IBM does this mean that WS e-B is not licensed for home use AT ALL??? or trhat the license agreement doesn't apply?
<Klaus Tim-IBM: do you know if there is a ssh-client included in the WarpServer GA ?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: and i don't see the reason to administrate mutliple accounts.. why doesn't the ftp-subsystem use the lanserver-users ?
<Nenad TheSeer: Mensys migh help you I think
<Galileo Tim-IBM can you say to update the JDK 1.1.7 installer inside of "IBM SOftware choice" with the lastest patch ?? If anyone want to download the JDK it should be great to download the lastest version.
<Ltning Good night people...
<Klaus Galileo: check out www.os2.org!
<mandie ltning: g'nite and thx for coming
<Tim-IBM Seer: A traditional BBS software package might fit the bill.
<Ltning bye mandie, tim and others.
<Ltning :)
<Nenad TheSeer: there's program that will link LAN users with FTP/telnet/rexec users
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: OS/2 is an excellent Host On-Demand server and client.
<Galileo ...the same on TCP/IP 4.1 !!
*  _Sid_C has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
<Klaus Galileo: chkeck out www.os2.org!
<Nenad hehe, I have native OS/2 BBS here with dos-like CLI interface :)
*  harlekin has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
<Fuzy|ogic I don't understand why I am the only person interested in what C development capabilities will come bundled.. I see that as a possible saving grace that will get the apps back!
<Tim-IBM Abraxas: It means you need a separate license, one for each system you install it on. Some software from IBM lets you install on both home and work (if there's only one user between the two systems).
<Nenad gcc probably
<Tim-IBM Seer: There's a third party telnet login utility that interfaces with LAN Server security. Check Hobbes.
<Fuzy|ogic A standard compiler for the community to work on is what we need to get opensource rolling on OS/2..
<WarpHoss Tim_IBM> thanks now how to convince "them" to allow me....?
*  Projects has it installed on both home/work machines... 'course both machines are one :)
*  mandie slaps Projects!
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: ok... will do.. how's the security after the login ? still all or nothing i gues..?!
<Tim-IBM Galileo: I think there's a link there, but you do have to download and install the service update for Java separately. I don't see that changing just because Java gets updated SO fast.
<Projects have 2 copies of warp 4 too :)
<Fuzy|ogic I was under the impression that gcc WAS NOT the included dev system.
<Tim-IBM Heck, Java 1.1.8 is in Preview now.
<mandie Java 1.1.8 is quite an improvement over 1.1.7
<Fuzy|ogic Swing is included I am told by Longstaff
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: Have stability issues changed dramatically? Java seems to crash & lock up my entire system here :(
<mandie fuzy: yep
<Nenad 1.1.8 includes Swing, that's good
<Tim-IBM Seer: All or nothing, which is why BBS software can help.
<Longstaff Tim-IBM - yes.....thanks to ibm we have a widespread swing distribution in warp
<Nenad but takes too much RAM :(
<TheSeer ok.. will consider that point..
<Fuzy|ogic Tim-IBM: Please! Tell me that gcc IS NOT the included dev system.
<Tim-IBM Mandie: Indeed. Nearly 30% faster on standard benchmarks, in our testing.
*  `\\\arvin is always hopeful that the next version will bring a good future!
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: can you answer my query-question ?
<Tim-IBM Mandie: Should also be some nice scalability enhancements for that Volano benchmark, which was the one thing still wanting.
<Tim-IBM Mandie: And Java Comm, Swing, etc., etc.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: on a 1500%-server it's hard to tell your boss: we have to install a sharewareBBS util ,-)
<Frogger Tim-IBM: Could you guesstimate the probability of a Warp 5 client coming from Stardock? Is it greater than 50%?
<mandie Tim: I didn't d/l the Comm API, isn't that just for programming?
<Tim-IBM Marvin: It's a good idea to get the latest service update for your Java -- that can often help. And, of course, if there's something wrong with the OS below (like a bad driver or old service level)...
<WarpHoss Tim_IBM> How far away are we from a PURE "OS2/J" OS?
*  TheSeer checks the clock.. damn.. 4 am..
<Longstaff mandie - the comm api enables printing and use of serial ports from within java
<Nenad comm api is for accessing serial ports
<mandie ahhhhhhhh
<mandie duh!
<Nenad printing?!
<Fuzy|ogic WarpHoss: bite your toungue!
*  Projects slaps mandie back :)
<Tim-IBM Fuzy: None of the decisions on components in any new Warp client (if any arrives) are final yet.
<Swanee mandie: Have you tried Simplicity with 1.1.8 yet?
<WarpHoss Swanee> I have. and it's beautiful.
<mandie swanee: I haven't play with java in quite some time..been too busy with other things :(
<Tim-IBM Frogger: If you hold a gun to my head, both Stardock and IBM would probably rate it 50-50.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: this means, even an included VIA-Voice for os/2 is possible? 8-}
<Fuzy|ogic What are the odds there will be a client at all?
<Swanee I haven't dl'd 1.1.8 yet. But I have gotten a bit deeper into Simplicity and VAJava
<Nenad Via Voice for OS/2 is a question of pride! :)
<Frogger Tim-IBM: Nope, no guns. :-) I'll buy you a beer, though!
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: You can pretty much do that today with not too much effort in CONFIG.SYS.
<Fuzy|ogic I mean, it sounds good, but I can't help but fear the worst.
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: Thanks for addressing that :) As for the multilanguage issue, and getting reported bugs looked after... is there a direction you could point me to?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: side-question to MPTN.EXE : Does ibm even know of the BUG in the netbios-over-tcp/ip <-> netbios change ?
<Galileo ...the config.sys must go to hell !!
<WarpHoss T_IBM> I have been toying with that you are welcome to send "specific" info.....
<mandie galileo: I'd prefer the config.sys and having control verses the registry
<DA_MAN \\\arvin: I can get you the educational versions of OS/2 in canada
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: namley that the netbeui$ in ibmlan.ini is *NOT* updated to tcpbeui$ if you change to nb-over-tcp/ip ?
<Frogger Tim-IBM: Are you at all worried about Brad and StarDock? They don't have a lot of credibility.
<Tim-IBM Klaus: Possible? Well, anything is. Likely? I'd have to say no.
<Swanee Do we have a rule about language here?
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: I'd also like to see about future job in OS/2 OS development at IBM :) (when i get my P's & Q's crossed and stuff)
<Galileo Im prefer Mac extension
<Frogger If they screw up, what does that mean for the future of OS/2?
<WarpHoss Yup swanee your language is yours....
<Klaus Frogger: good question!
<Nenad I would like to see a Linux runtime for OS/2
<`\\\arvin DA_MAN: really? that would be a bonus.
<Tim-IBM Seer: Probably, but unless someone complains (who's got at least basic paid support) it isn't a "life threatening" issue and won't get changed.
<Nenad binary compatiblity layer
<Fuzy|ogic Stardock has come under fire from all angles. It doesn't seem to hurt their ability to sell software for OS/2 or windows...
<Frogger Klaus: I'm kinda worried about it. Brad can be quite a blowhard.
<`\\\arvin DA_MAN: You're in Canada? I was told by IBM that export laws get in the way
<Sub0OS2 re
<Tim-IBM Frogger: No, and I would disagree with your characterization.
<Fuzy|ogic OS/2 people will buy the client almost no matter what and others who are new to it won't have any concept of Stardock's rep.
<Projects '\\\arvin: not to canada
<Klaus Tim-IBM: If Stardock dosn't do the OS/2 Client, what does that mean for the future of OS/2?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: another question.. hows IBM's Linux-effort affecting OS/2 ?
<mandie we'll continue getting updtes to 4.0
<jjurban It's not up to Stardock alone. It's up to all of us.
<Nenad I think StarDock took much fire because some thought that they can save home OS/2 users by giving them all possible games and apps thet exist :)
<Fuzy|ogic Stardock has to watch their bottom line too...
<mandie jjurban: it's up to those that can program for os2 and up to those that can't to provide support to the programmers
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: As for certifications for OS/2, how can one go for these certifications, and are there classes one can take?
<jjurban If only IBM doesn't betray us...
<Tim-IBM Frogger: I'm not expecting them to "screw up" at all, but part of why people get paid the big bucks is to worry about all the awful things that could possibly go wrong.
<Tim-IBM Frogger: 99% of which have nothing to do with Stardock anyway.
<Swanee Klaus: I am counting on it in order to stay in the OS/2 business
<Frogger Tim-IBM: OK.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: would it be possible to give NETLABS the source code of VIA-VOICE to do a os/2 port, if they'd write a contract not to spread the sources?
*  WarpHoss is not playing games he's making a decent living a wants to continue w/out playing "games".
<Fuzy|ogic I too want to sell OS/2 software, or at least be knighted for programming it :)
<Dervish I'm going to have to go. It was hard to keep track so I lurked. Interesting. I think we're all about on the same side. If someone wants to tell me how to start I'll write my own drivers! This might be heresy - or the lateness of the hour, but the more I think about, the more I think that Win95/98/2000 support out of the box might not be that good an idea - from a marketing point of view. Maybe even Win-OS/2 was a "mistake" (in the long term)
<Klaus Tim-IBM: same question for other frozen os/2 soft..
<jjurban jjurban agrees with Klaus
*  Projects ^5's WarpHoss
<Tim-IBM Mandie: That's correct. Warp 4 is a solid, stable release with a steady stream of continued refinements.
<Swanee Dervish: Hey! You have to work in an hour or two don't you? :-)
<Dervish delay let in Windows 95. With its now much larger product base OS/2 might be ready to go it alone?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: to your answer about the mptn-bug: that's the same point as always.. We (the os/2-comunity ) found a BUG and we'd LOVE to fix it.. but IBM wants us to PAY for someone inside IBM to fix it ???
<Galileo galileo agrees with Klaus
<Tim-IBM Marvin: Yes, there are. If you go to www.ibm.com and search on "certification" you should find what you're looking for.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: if IBM (?) wants the Os/2-community to help themselves there must be a way to incorporate fixes..
<Tim-IBM Marvin: I think it's in the www.education.ibm.com section (?)
*  WarpHoss or pressing
<Sub0OS2 Just fix the memory leak in the MMPM/2 iamge loader and I'd be happy...8')
<Nenad Via Voice engine for Linux could be merged with Voice Type front-end from Warp
<Swanee Dervish: It's your fault that I made it home for this. You are a dedicated dude!
<Frogger Tim-IBM: Well, I certainly want to do everything I can to make Warp 5 a reality and to help the continued existance/growth of OS/2 (under whatever moniker) a reality.
<Fuzy|ogic I think the included C dev stuff will give us 'as a community' the power we need.
<mandie Sub: don't use it! Use PMView :)
<DA_MAN \\\\arvin yeah..i;m in canada ..
<StevenL Fuzzy, I wish I believed that.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: again, would it be possible to give NETLABS the source code of VIA-VOICE to do a os/2 port, if they'd write a contract not to spread the sources?
<Sub0OS2 mandie: I would if PMView would work for loading wallpaper...8')
<DA_MAN i actuallyhave an educational warp4 box besides my desk :0
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: thanks ;)
<Tim-IBM Seer: Well, not exactly. IBM wants you to at least put some money on the table for them to take a look at it. If IBM calls it a defect there's a reimbursement policy in many cases.
<Frogger Goodnight. Thanks, Tim. And good luck.
<Galileo ...I really hate downloading the upgrade and them the fix of the upgrade !!!
<WarpHoss Tim_IBM is a blessing to all of us.
<mandie Tim: thank you mucho! :)
*  mandie agrees with Warphoss
<Longstaff Tim-IBM - i'm looking forward to the july announcement
*  Projects agress with mandie
<`\\\arvin Aww yah. Tim just rocks :)
<Swanee Tim... Thanks a TON! At least 95% of us really do appreciate you and thank you.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: it's hard for us to pay >1500 for Warp5-Server and pay extra to fix the bug ,-)
*  Sub0OS2 agree's to agree...8')
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: well.. i don't want IBM to have a look at it.. i know there is a bug and i now how to fix it..
<Tim-IBM Klaus: Sorry, missed the first time you asked. You'd have to pass that one by the voice group and see what they say. They just did a Linux beta, so anything is possible, I guess.
<TheSeer ;)
<mandie Tim: you know where to come when you feel friendless :)
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss, Mandie: Well, blessing, I don't know. But I like to help out because I enjoy it -- that's the bottom line. This is fun stuff!
<WarpHoss Tim_IBM> anytime you need testing even wwith an NDA let me know!!!
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: Your taking time to speak here makes a big difference!
*  Projects too
<mandie ok, I'm going to take off...thanks to all for coming tonight..we appreciate everyone's support :)
<mandie nytol :)
<`\\\arvin Have a good night mandie
<Tim-IBM I especially like it when I can send out announcements with really good news -- and I've been doing that a lot lately.
<Sub0OS2 Maybe someone has asked this before but has IBM given any thought to opening up some of the sources to Warp?(the ones that don't fall under a legal problem in doing so...)
*  WarpHoss says Tim deserves Lifetime acheivement award for perserverance in OS/2 support.
<Tim-IBM Seer: But they obviously have to look at it, if for nothing else than to look at their source code.
<Sub0OS2 WarpHoss: agreed...8')
<jjurban I have to go. Bye all.
<Tim-IBM Seer: It's a really basic problem: they have to put SOME rule on this, otherwise everybody would call with a "defect" in the product. (And, no, lack of ViaVoice is NOT a defect! :-))
<Dervish Right, I think I'm going to call it a night! Goodnight everyone! :)
<Nenad so mid-July, new Comm/2 :)
<Nenad hopefully based on Mozilla ;)
<shyguy later all
*  Projects still wants opera
<Nenad Opera will be late, IMO
*  Abraxas is still logging this session :-)
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: Oh, no need for that. Plan is to have a very public beta if Stardock and IBM can make this work.
<StevenL That's OK. Rather have a Warp enabled Mozilla.
<Projects prolly will, but it's back in development at last
<Swanee Tim-IBM: Do you think the DOJ case has quite a bit of bearing on the client decision at IBM?
<Tim-IBM SubOS2: We have to the extent we can, actually. The Device Driver Kit is a case in point.
<`\\\arvin Tim-IBM: i got a big huge sticky note on July 14 :P
*  Sector hoeps Abraxas is also editing this session
<Nenad public betas are good, but they would need to establish a good reporting procedure
<Tim-IBM SubOS2: Check out http://service.boulder.ibm.com/ddk
<WarpHoss Where there is a will there will be a way!
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: ah
<Abraxas Sector I thought you were the logfile editor :-)))
<Nenad althoguh, Aurora is GA allready and it will have at least one or two fixpaks by that time
<Tim-IBM Nah, no need for Opera. :-)
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: I ment a little deeper than that....as getting into the internals of the WPS code and the kernel of OS/2 itself...
<Projects hmmm
<rTheSee damn.. re :)
*  DA_MAN takes his hat off to Tim .. may you live long and prosper
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: and the MMPM/2 and Dive/Dart stuff also for example...8')
<Tim-IBM Swanee: No, I don't think so. At most a very indirect bearing on a client decision.
<Klaus that's right, the Aurora-Beta was nice too, but only one of my reported bugs was removed .-(
<Nenad solving SIQ issue would help a lot for a client
<WarpHoss >T_IBM> How about me running a CallCenter for ya?
<Projects Tim-IBM: doesn't matter... I prolly have every OS/2 browser ever written anyway :)
<Tim-IBM SubOS2: There are problems with releasing OS/2 Warp source code, and not all of them have to do with things in IBM's control.
<WarpHoss ther was supposed to be ;-) onthat Tim....
<Swanee Tim-IBM: Does the july 14 announcement have the numbers 4 & (5 or 6) in it?
<Nenad Projects: you have SpeedSoft Sybil webex component? :))
<Swanee :-)
*  Sector doesn't recall ever having the "title" of logfile editor.
<TheSeer Nenad: the SIQ-Problem was topic of an earlier Speekup .. if i remember that right the resutl was:
<Longstaff Swanee - we may have to, uhh, wait and see :)
<Projects Nenad: well, not anymore. I had no use for Sybil 'cause I can't program my way out of a wet paper bag :)
<`\\\arvin Swanee: hahahaha
<Tim-IBM Swanee: Frankly I haven't been following the MS trial much. I have opinions on it, of course. We do have an interesting relationship with Microsoft.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: what are non-IBM problems by releasing os/2 sourcecode? still so much mickeysoft code in it?
<TheSeer if you know a solution not breaking anything in backwardcompatibiltiy IBM would be happy to pay you a lot of money for that..
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: right....due to contract with other vendors etc...8')...I'm refering to the stuff that doesn't have that cloud hanging over it...
<Swanee Tim-IBM: I figured a new client would be ammo for ms and that may not play well at IBM
<Tim-IBM Swanee: Can't say more about July 14th (date subject to change, but hopefully not).
<Projects argh! another RSN? :)
<Swanee Tim-IBM: hehe, just trying to prod you a bit. :-)
<Fuzy|ogic yeah, a new client may say "Look, no monopoly" even though they would be wrong.
<Tim-IBM Klaus: Can't say. (Gosh, I hate saying that. :-))
<Nenad somehow, I think IBM could release parts of OS/2 code like PM, WPS and Dos* APIs, then use the Linux base for the kernel, file system, networking... and voila! open-source os/2 :)
<Projects so don't say it then! :)
*  Sub0OS2 notes that a lot of OS/2 users are going to have a countdown counter on their wall like the sci-fi channel did in it's comercial for StarWars episode 1
<Sub0OS2 But for this announcement
<Nenad but Linux runtime would be better
<Tim-IBM SubOS2: Oh, there are many clouds.... :-)
<WarpHoss T_IBM> Seems to me IBM needs a Telecom player in their fold... other than At&t... talk to me..
<Klaus Tim-IBM: it's ok, you said that the 1st time, on CeBit I just heared that on the IBM-Center ,-)
<Swanee Sub0OS2: My countdown is for a new client. :-)
<Tim-IBM Projects: Hey, 30 days ain't bad!
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: ic...8')
<Swanee WarpHoss: hehe yeah, a telecom and an archiver... talk to me too! :-)
<Projects Tim-IBM: shorter than a lot of things I've been waiting for (as in a decent accounting app for OS/2 business users :p)
<Nenad Tim: it's getting better, at least... it took 1 year for the first release :)
<Gayland \quit
<Tim-IBM Projects: Well, I do want everyone checking our web sites on the 14th. At least at 11:59 p.m. Hawaiian time. :-)
<Swanee Projects: We can only hope that one appears mysteriously like Maul did.
<TheSeer sorry if i repeat.. but i asked for the effect of IBM's Linux-Movment on OS/2..
<TheSeer that already been answered
*  Projects hands Gayland a spare /
<Nenad I really hope they did it right this time
*  TheSeer got lost in a ping timeout or something..
<Klaus Tim-IBM: is there any chance to get the WebExplorer sourcecode? I don't think IBM will sell it anymore ,-)
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: I think the two biggest things that would be good to make open source in OS/2 would be the PM and the WPS...in that order...if the PM was open sourced apps from other API's for be supported easily by a port by including theXlib api's and the like...
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: I missed something (?)
<Projects Swanee: yeah, how did that sneak past the masses anyway? Looks interesting...
<Swanee Gayland: use the other slash :-)
<WarpHoss T_IBM> yup and so did IBM.
<TheSeer Sub0OS2: if i rembeer correct, PM is copyright M$
<Tim-IBM Klaus: Hmmm... Not sure.
<Sub0OS2 TheSeer: ah....then we would replace it...
<Nenad why would you need WebEx source? you have Mozilla source
<Sub0OS2 TheSeer: clone the api's and move on to another...
<TheSeer Sub0OS2: guess why the pm is so buggy ,-)
<Sub0OS2 TheSeer: like Samba was done
<Swanee Projects: I oped you and left. You're the KING baby!!!
<Swanee gsahca!!!
<Projects Swanne: do a /who voiceops :)
<Klaus Nenad: WebEx is incedibly fast and compact! and has a beautiful rendering engine!
<Tim-IBM WarpHoss: This isn't exactly the most easily managed way to talk, but it's fun. :-)
<Nenad Klaus: Lynx is even faster :)
<Projects Klaus: not to mention the fun animations that I really miss on other browsers...
<Swanee Projects: null?
<Klaus Nenad: but I prefer the WebEx rendering engine ,-)
<Swanee :-)
<Klaus Projects: right ,-)
<TheSeer Klaus: but WebEx is not capable of the latest stuff in html and javascript..
<Projects Swanee: no point in being there :)
<Nenad Klaus: use MS IE for animations ;)
<Tim-IBM Klaus: It is a bit dated at this point, I'm afraid. :-(
<WarpHoss agreed> T_IBM> but it can be even more....
<Swanee How could Abraxas go away when he was asleep?
<TheSeer Klaus: and idoubt it'll be faster to enhance the webEX then porting an exisiting NS..
<Klaus TheSeer: that's why i want the sourcecode from tim ,-)
<Tim-IBM Folks, t-minus 5 minutes... I'll have to depart in a few...
<Projects Webex animations work in IE???
<Nenad WebEx.dll would be nice, someone could incorporate mozilla code there!
<Longstaff Tim-IBM - in july we should let you make a longer announcment at the start before we open the floor for questions
*  Klaus knows people who would add frame support...
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i'd like to thank you for your supoort (no, i'm *not* a voice offical ;-) )
<Nenad hey, Tim, how about Apache for OS/2 from IBM? will it be multithreaded, will it have LGW compatibiltiy module or even GoServe as LGW did? :)
<Tim-IBM I'm not on the #voice schedule at this point (except for today, as a last minute "surprise"). I'd like to reserve my next appearance for something REALLY big if I can.
*  WarpHoss say thanks and pleeeease contact me Tim_IBM
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: i promise not to.. well.. at leat i'll try not to anoy you with questions..
<Swanee Tim-IBM: You know... your name was one of the first names I associated with OS/2 when I started using it in 95 (I think). I am glad you are still here.
<Klaus Tim-IBM: thanks for spending the time with us... now it would be nice if you could send all os/2 related sources to us ,-))))
<`\\\arvin hahaha
<Projects Tim-IBM: you're welcome to join us any time though...
<Nenad Tim: something big? hmmm... what might that be?
<TheSeer Nenad: apache 2.0 will be multithreaded .. and there's aport of pthreads for os/2..
<TheSeer you just need to compile it :)
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: you da man...thanx for supporting warpers like us...
<Tim-IBM Nenad: Well, as you know you can get Apache for OS/2. I think what you're talking about is the Apache-based IBM HTTP Server. Subscribe to Software Choice -- enhancements come when they're ready.
<Nenad TheSeer: I wonder about IBM version
*  DA_MAN thnks he is not worthy..and hands over his nick to TIm-IBM ..cuz Tim is DA_MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: IBM has to release modifications to apache to the public
<Nenad Tim-IBM: I don't like Apache because it's not multithreaded, but I hope IBM's "powered by Apache" will be
<Galileo ...TCP/ip 4.1 had so many updates that the installer should be updated..... http://en.OS2.org/software/updates/Server05.php3
<Tim-IBM Seer: Yes, I believe that's how it works.
<TheSeer Galileo: what update ?
<TheSeer Galileo: i can update it right away ;)
*  Sub0OS2 notes that IBM's apache code is a great thing...
<Tim-IBM I should tell you that Domino Go with WebSphere is excellent, though.
<Sub0OS2 Corporate supported open source is a great concept
<Tim-IBM But as they become ready, more and more platforms will enjoy IBM HTTP Server.
<Tim-IBM (Still have OS/390, OS/2, and I believe OS/400 to do.)
<Longstaff Tim-IBM - how can i get websphere for os/2?
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: how about IBM and opensource ? e.g. IBM is on the Linux-track now.. they use GPL-stuff and give it back to the people..
<Tim-IBM Longstaff: Easy! Get Warp Server for e-business.
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: will this happen to OS/2-stuff too ?
<`\\\arvin But going opensource will mean a loss of profits for sure!
<Nenad so, LGW is really dying... :(
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: like, will IBM incorporate stuff a non-ibm-coder created ??
<Tim-IBM Seer: Hard to say, and some people even smarter than I am are wrestling with that.
<Longstaff thanx Tim - i was looking for info on that on ibm.com
<Nenad arvin: IBM sells services, software is only there to bring the customers in ;)
<TheSeer Tim-IBM: well.. i see no sence in enhancing stuff and IBM refuses to use it ;)
<Tim-IBM Seer: Always have! Gosh, OS/2 1.0 included non-IBM coded technologies!
<Klaus we're paying for IBM-Suport, not for the code ,-) so OpenSource should not be too bad for IBM
<TheSeer ah.. ok..
<Tim-IBM Seer: That's what's great about it -- a good mix of technologies.
<TheSeer so there might be some interest inside IBM for a webbased setup ? *g*
*  TheSeer hopes for some support since he can't find any documatition on a damn lot of config-files..
<Nenad like that firewall confing utility that Ltning made
<Galileo Tim-IBM, what do you exactly do on OS/2 ???
<TheSeer guess i can announce it here ;)
<Tim-IBM Well, good night everybody! Thanks for the pounding. :-)
*  WarpHoss invites Tim_IBM to Rural Hall and has to leave to get up at 4amEDST
<TheSeer We (some people and i ;) ) started a new project, a webbased Setup for OS/2
<Longstaff goodnight Tim-IBM
<Sub0OS2 Tim-IBM: have a great night....
<TheSeer setup = configuration