[19:57:11] <ptackbar> I got an idea for those at OS/2 SS :)
[19:57:24] <CWenham> The SuperSite?
[19:57:30] <ptackbar> mentioned it to Dirk a bit ago...he said he'd like to do it, but not sure if he's got enough time
[19:57:32] <ptackbar> CWenham, yes ;)
[19:57:38] <CWenham> What's the idea?
[19:58:07] <ptackbar> Well, a sort of broadcasted news listing (from Warpcast) that webmasters could somehow include on their page dyanmically.
[19:58:14] <ptackbar> sort of the way the Supersite does now.
[19:58:23] <ptackbar> not sure exactly how it'd have to be done.
[19:58:32] <CWenham> Like how some sites do with Reuters and Associated Press?
[19:58:40] <ptackbar> But, if you guys browse any Quake sites, they do a similar thing w/ .plan updates.
[19:58:48] <ptackbar> CWenham: I think so.
[19:59:29] <ptackbar> so basically, you could add the latest news to your site, brought to you by warpcast...it would add notoriety to warpcast and get a lot of news out fast :0
[19:59:39] <ptackbar> :)
[19:59:42] <Swanee> Hi freiheit
[19:59:45] <freiheit> Hello all
[19:59:56] <Longstaff> hiya freiheit
[20:00:16] <ptackbar> CWenham: does that sound possible?
[20:00:38] <CWenham> I suspect it could be done. The OS2SS main page currently uses a Rexx script that looks at the daily archive of WarpCast articles, picks the last 8 articles and makes a simple text file.
-> ptackbar: You talking about a news ticker? That would be real cool. Especially since IBM abandoned the one that ran in OS/2.
[20:01:08] <CWenham> The text file is then included into the Supersite main page by an HTML preprocessor (the one described in my earlier "Dynamic Web Sites" articles at the e-zine"
[20:01:09] <ptackbar> right, that's what I'd like to do, but I can't get the daily archive from my remote site.
[20:01:33] <ptackbar> (the VOICE site) :)
[20:01:39] <ptackbar> MADodel: no, but that's a good idea ;)
[20:02:10] <CWenham> If the text file was placed somewhere publicly accessable then other sites could retrieve it on an automated basis.
[20:02:14] <ptackbar> MADodel: if you hit www.os2ss.com, they've got warpcast news in a condensed table on the right.
[20:02:24] <ptackbar> CWenham, right...that sounds like it might be a cool idea.
-> ptackbar: I know.
[20:02:53] <os2hq> Howdy, neighbors!
[20:02:54] <freiheit> Hey there hq
[20:03:08] <os2hq> Hey frei.
[20:03:30] <os2hq> Got my new Home Page up & running.
[20:03:34] <os2hq> Still got to fix a lot of the links, etc. though.
[20:03:52] <CWenham> I'll talk to Dirk about it and see how he feels. There might be copyright issues that need to be smoothed out.
[20:04:06] <os2hq> Hey Chris, thanks for coming.
[20:04:07] <ptackbar> I see :)
[20:04:15] <CWenham> hq, good to see you =)
[20:04:30] <os2hq> Ah, where's Mandie?
[20:04:36] <os2hq> Out of town again?
[20:04:44] <freiheit> heh
[20:04:50] <os2hq> Proj, get those membership forms warmed up!!!
[20:05:02] <os2hq> How many we're up to now, anyway?
[20:05:09] <Projects> heh... processed 2 today
[20:05:11] <Projects> 69
[20:05:16] <os2hq> amazing.
[20:05:19] <freiheit> woohoo
[20:05:20] <os2hq> Simply amazing.
[20:05:44] <jokerl> We start yet?
[20:05:47] <os2hq> We need to start delivering some *value* for these folks, though. And getting them involved in the process.
[20:05:56] <os2hq> Just waiting for you, Joker.
[20:06:01] <freiheit> Hello jokerl, Guest259, and Craig_G
[20:06:03] <Swanee> jokerl: Real soon...
[20:06:04] <jokerl> Well, you can start now.
[20:06:11] <Swanee> jokerl: :)
[20:06:14] <Craig_G> hello all
[20:06:26] <os2hq> brb
[20:06:38] <Swanee> Hi Craig_G
[20:07:29] <Joc> -> I don't know who did send a reminder half an hour ago, but it was nice!
* ptackbar looks at freiheit
[20:07:58] <freiheit> it was me :)
[20:08:08] <Joc> -> ... a reminder of the speakup
-> The VOICE Secretary is in charge of all announcements since my problem a few months ago.
[20:08:21] <freiheit> but I don't remember who sent me a message reminding me to remind you all :b
[20:08:50] <Joc> -> freiheit, well many thanks then! (I always forget otherwise...)
[20:08:58] <freiheit> Not a problem :)
[20:09:12] <freiheit> We enjoy having our members here at the meetings
[20:09:14] <mandie> hello :)
[20:09:20] <freiheit> Hey there mandie
[20:09:27] <mandie> freiheit: hi :)
[20:09:27] <CWenham> Hellomandie =)
[20:09:36] <mandie> CWenham: Welcome!! :)
[20:09:39] <os2hq> welcome, mandie.
[20:09:44] <mandie> bbias...just finishing dinner
[20:09:54] <os2hq> Say MAD, why not make a few "announcements" to Redmond?
* freiheit rolls his <(^)> <(^)> eyes
[20:10:09] <Swanee> join warp
[20:10:15] <os2hq> yep.
[20:10:39] <os2hq> Well, I'm taking suggestions as to what university to make our *other* "announcements" to.
[20:10:44] <mandie> ok
[20:10:50] <mandie> os2hq: hi :)
[20:10:57] <os2hq> hey mandie.
[20:11:35] <freiheit> Welcome back Swanee
-> Time to get the show on the road
[20:12:34] <Swanee> One of my lovely grandkids pulled the plug on me. :)
* freiheit calms down and sits quietly in his chair
[20:12:50] <mandie> swanee: been there :)
[20:13:14] <Abraxas> I'd like to welcome everyone to tonight's Speakup with Chris Wenham
[20:13:54] <Abraxas> Before we get started, I'd like to introduce Wayne Swanson (Swanee) ... the new Vice President of VOICE
[20:14:19] <Projects> we finally got him to sign :)
[20:14:20] <Longstaff> congratulations swanee
[20:14:23] <ptackbar> hi Swanee :)
[20:14:24] <mandie> <clapping>
[20:14:29] <jokerl> Swanee: gone respectable?
[20:14:44] <Swanee> I couldn't outrun them... :)
[20:14:54] <Abraxas> LOL
[20:15:34] <os2hq> Yippeeee~~!
[20:15:45] <Abraxas> Swanee that's even funnier when there is some truth to it :-)))
[20:16:11] <Swanee> Well, I just hope to be of help in some way.
[20:16:11] <os2hq> Now we're fully loaded -- every position filled.
* jokerl has a bad mental image of hordes of VOICE members chasing after Swanee
[20:16:34] <Swanee> jokerl: You may be next! :)
[20:16:42] <os2hq> And membership is climbing exponentially -- adding about 20 members/month, right Proj?
[20:16:46] <jokerl> *gulp*
[20:16:51] <os2hq> heh.
[20:16:54] <Abraxas> Yep .... Swanee knows how we operate, now :-)
[20:17:11] <mandie> We would like to thank Chris Wenham for being our guest tonight and for all of his efforts that he puts forth to support the OS/2 Community.
[20:17:12] <CWenham> How high has the membership climbed to so far?
[20:17:18] <os2hq> We're sort of Team OS/2's evil twin organization.
[20:17:22] <jokerl> I haven't contributed enough to OS/2. All I did was the dialog enhancer web page. I have no worries.
* CWenham takes a bow.
[20:17:23] <Joc> -> os2hq 20 per month is not exponential...
[20:17:35] <os2hq> Joc: compared to two months ago it is!!!
[20:17:38] <mandie> Chris: would you like to tell us a bit about yourself...
[20:18:21] <mandie> chris: unedited version will suffice :)
[20:19:08] <freiheit> alright, we hope to see you here again soon jokerl
[20:19:17] <CWenham> Well I started using OS/2 about 4 years ago, and writing about it nearly a year later when Trevor Smith of the OS/2 e-Zine! posted a message to the newsgroups asking for writers for his new publication.
[20:20:21] <mandie> Cwhenham: what type of writing background do you have?
[20:20:28] <CWenham> A few weeks earlier I'd written a review of Galactic Civilizations for, what I now think is defunct, internet publication called "The Computer Times" or something.
[20:21:06] <CWenham> That was the first article I submitted to the e-Zine! after "The Computer Times" disappeared.
[20:21:28] <Joc> -> CWenham, how do you feel about the evolution of e-zine?
[20:22:10] <CWenham> I didn't have any professional writing background before joining the e-Zine, neither had I taken any journalism courses. I'm quite an amateur hack at heart.
[20:22:32] <mandie> CWenham: you'd never know it :)
[20:22:43] <CWenham> The e-Zine has surprised me a lot actually, not the least of which is the fact that it has lasted for nearly three years now. I wasn't convinced it'd last more than 1 year.
[20:23:34] <freiheit> Not only has it lasted, it's expanded and started being published twice as often :)
[20:23:38] <Swanee> Hi SunnyBear, CWenham your hacking attempts have a bit more polish than a beginner would have.
[20:23:44] <mandie> CW: how many people contribute to eZine on a routine basis?
[20:23:47] <os2hq> And it gets better all the time.
[20:23:49] <CWenham> But Trevor and I seemed committed enough, we had enough readers, we were starting to get a tiny stream of advertising, so we've kept it up. Now you can see we've been experimenting here and there as we enter our third year.
[20:23:51] <Joc> -> CWenjam, Me too, e-zine amazes me, particularly WarpCast.
[20:24:03] <CWenham> Swanee, thank you =)
[20:24:10] <os2hq> Warpcast ROX.
[20:24:26] <CWenham> Most of the experiments can be summed up as the Hypernews forums and the bi-weekly schedule shift.
[20:25:20] <ptackbar> Why exactly did you decide to go biweekly?
[20:25:23] <CWenham> Usually about 4-5 people contribute on a regular basis. It's been a bit hair-raising the past couple of months because one of our regulars, Ryan Dill, was out of touch for a month as he moved.
[20:25:40] <CWenham> Colin Hildinger has also been contributing less as his Real Job (tm) takes up more of his time.
[20:26:15] <CWenham> ptackbar, unofficial? To flip the bird to all those people who said OS/2 was dead ;)
[20:26:25] <mandie> lol
[20:26:27] <freiheit> :)
[20:26:31] <ptackbar> :)
[20:26:35] <Projects> hehehe
* SunnyBear moves outta the way of the bird..
[20:26:43] <mandie> :)
[20:27:01] <CWenham> Officially it was because we thought it was about time we started treating an internet publication like an internet publication, not a print one that has to come out as a monthly because of printing costs etc.
-> Yeah, real jobs can be a pain that way.
[20:27:23] <CWenham> But we still weren't ready to do what 32-bits online has done and just publish articles "as they come in"
[20:27:50] <Longstaff> i think a few of us have bones to pick with 32bitsonline
[20:27:53] <ptackbar> 32-Bits online has lost a lot of my respect :)
[20:27:54] <Projects> and rumours "as they come in" :p
[20:27:54] <os2hq> hmmmm...
-> You mean like "Warpstock is dead" and "OS/2 is dead"?
[20:28:23] <os2hq> Yeah, that's stupid.
[20:28:26] <Projects> 32-bits online has lost ALL my respect
[20:28:43] <os2hq> You're not supposed to lead journalism *downward* like that!
[20:28:43] <os2hq> E-zine seems to have stayed on the level.
[20:28:59] <CWenham> We felt that deadlines were important, they help motivate the writers to get stuff in. Being too 'loose' with schedules invites procrastination.
[20:29:15] <Longstaff> 32bits also had a lot of busted links the last time i checked thier site
* CWenham is not allowed to comment very much on 32-Bits ;)
[20:30:08] <Swanee> CWenham: Has the competitive aspect of publishing been smoothed over? Example: EDM/2 does deeper programming issues and you do news, reviews and light programming?
[20:30:11] <Joc> -> CWenhem, deadlines is strong motivation (but not alway fun...)
[20:31:36] <mandie> CWenham: when will we see part 3 of Building Dynamic Web Sites?
[20:31:54] <CWenham> Swanee, well the presense of EDM/2 certainly gives us the freedom to cover what we want without thinking we're obliged to represent the programming community. We've definately felt the LOSS of competition in the OS/2 publishing arena.
[20:32:58] <CWenham> mandie, that had to be put on hold when my computer was lost (long story, but the upside is that I know it's safe and hope to get it back soon) and with it all my work.
[20:33:28] <mandie> ah, ok
[20:33:37] <CWenham> Until I can reconstitute all that work on this Laptop I'm borrowing from Dirk Terrell, or get my computer back, that will still be on hold.
[20:33:54] <Swanee> That had to just be a crushing blow. :(
[20:34:06] <CWenham> But I haven't given it up, I've actually had a few new ideas since someone asked me earlier if it was possible to have the WarpCast headlines available for use on other web sites, like a news ticker.
[20:34:21] <mandie> that would be great!
[20:34:26] <Swanee> CWenham: Hmmm... good idea
[20:35:23] <Joc> -> CWenham, are there things in preparation for the coming year?
[20:35:31] <CWenham> Going back to the competitive thing, one of the ingredients in the fuel for my soul is competition. The loss of Warp Online and the change in focus of OS/2 Computing/32-Bits was a damper.
[20:36:29] <CWenham> Joc, editorially our current goals for the coming year is to beef up opinion and "how to..." type articles.
[20:36:30] <ptackbar> Possibly the VOICE Newsletter could become competition some day :)
-> Well there is still OS/2 Connect and the VOICE Newsletter. ;-)
[20:36:51] <mandie> men after my own heart :)
[20:37:32] <ptackbar> I mean yesterday :0
[20:37:32] <ptackbar> :)
[20:37:42] <CWenham> ptakbar, VOICE, Extended Attributes, Connect and even (to some degree) Warp City keep my competitive spirit alive. I really want those publications to continue, even if it is "us" vs. "them" =D
[20:37:52] <mandie> Cwenham: do you use alot of REXX to maintain the eZine pages?
[20:38:06] <os2hq> I have a lot of editorials on my site.... but I don't have the time to set up a *real* "NEWS" line.
[20:38:08] <os2hq> That seems to be the dividing line between a "zine" and a regular site.
[20:38:20] <CWenham> mandie, that's something that Trevor can tell you more about since he's the one who actually assembles the finished articles, tunes the HTML and puts everything online.
[20:38:32] <mandie> ah
[20:38:39] <CWenham> On the OS/2 Supersite I use a LOT of Rexx and plan to use even more.
[20:38:52] <mandie> Cwenham: Did you invite Trevor for tonight?
[20:39:06] <ptackbar> One problem I have w/ that stuff is that I don't have physical access to the machine hosting the pages.
[20:39:22] <CWenham> mandie, yes, but I guess he didn't come (or actually maybe because I didn't have the chance to send him a reminder, I just got back from Albany :-/
[20:39:24] <ptackbar> everything is down remotely through FTP (no telnet, except for the os2ss mirror of voice :)
[20:39:34] <mandie> ahh
[20:40:08] <CWenham> ptackbar, well you can still do a lot without physical access. With a cron program and a few simple Rexx scripts you can have a fairly decent, professional level news service going.
[20:40:17] <ptackbar> true.
[20:40:46] <os2hq> Chris, you may not know this, but....
[20:40:58] <os2hq> Nick Petreley's probably in need of some writing assignments.
[20:41:02] <CWenham> I experimented with that back when I used to maintain my personal web site (which I haven't touched for nearly 2 years :-D ) I had a Rexx script that ran every midnight and changed the "quote of the day"
[20:41:18] <os2hq> His gig at NC World seems to be going up in smoke.... they couldn't get enough paid ad $$$.
[20:41:38] <os2hq> And of course MisInfo World only gives him a small column in the back.
* CWenham doesn't think the e-Zine! can afford Petreley. We can't even afford Esther =(
[20:41:51] <os2hq> Heh.
[20:42:03] <os2hq> It might make an interesting "once in a while" thing though.
[20:42:25] <mandie> I just sent a lil note to Trevor..maybe he'll check his email before we're done here
[20:42:44] <os2hq> People might read your Zine just to see if Petreley's got something that particular month.
[20:42:44] <os2hq> Brett Glass is going to be doing some interesting stuff, too.
[20:42:45] <CWenham> Maybe, if we saved up our pennies. I'd be a major rush to get a guest article from Petreley or Schindler though.
[20:43:04] <os2hq> Exactly. Just a guest article, if advertised in the right places....
* CWenham likes a lot of the InfoWorld columnists like Petreley, the Cringleys... maybe not Sandy Reed though...
[20:44:10] <os2hq> "maybe not" ?????
[20:44:31] <Joc> -> CWenham, does WarpCast requires lots of work? How many peoples works on that? How automatic is it?
* CWenham grins =)
[20:44:46] <os2hq> Actually, I hope WS98 staff has a "free pass" available on "will call" for Sandy, MJF, Stewie Alsop, and gang.
[20:45:48] <CWenham> Joc, WarpCast is a mailing list program and is heavily automated. There's a script that will add the [WarpCast] to the subject when an article is sent to email@example.com, for example.
[20:46:08] <Swanee> Petreley may have a name but I have to rank our own Wenham, Dill and Smith right up there for their service and content.
[20:46:10] <CWenham> Another script is actually subscribed to WarpCast and automaticly updates the web archive.
[20:46:14] <Joc> -> CWenham, ok
-> But isn't each post reviewed before posting to Warpcast?
[20:47:01] <jokerl> Is there going to be a log of this posted? OpenChat mysteriously crashed on me while I was away.
[20:47:13] <CWenham> MADodel, yes. The mailing list software has a web interface. The moderating staff logs in with a username and password and can view and edit articles before posting to the list.
[20:47:17] <mandie> jokerl: yes, it will be on the VOICE homepage
[20:47:22] <freiheit> Yes, the log of this SpeakUp will be on the VOICE website later
[20:47:23] <mandie> and mirror :)
[20:47:29] <ptackbar> very soon after :)
[20:47:30] <ptackbar> LOL
[20:47:39] <CWenham> Everything has to be approved before it goes out, so WarpCast can't be used to send spam, for example.
[20:48:18] <mandie> Cwenham: ever get any *inside* info from IBM?
[20:48:19] <jokerl> I forgot to register OpenChat!
[20:48:39] <CWenham> Usually one of us will log in on a regular basis, check for submissions, proof them, fact check them, clean anything up that needs it and then hit the "Approve" button.
* jokerl smacks himself in the head, then goes to dig for his version number.
[20:48:55] <Swanee> jokerl: It's a nice proggie and well worth it.
* Projects didn't like it at all
[20:49:27] <CWenham> mandie, very very little. We don't have the kind of contacts that many full-time journalists have. We've collected a few in the time we've been publishing though, like Michael Steinberg at Lotus etc.
[20:49:31] <jokerl> Swanee: I know. I paid. I'm in the midst of a reinstall of OS/2. Gotta go through my papers and find the serial number.
[20:50:43] <Longstaff> mike steinberg is a nice guy
[20:51:14] <CWenham> Mike was invaluable in our SmartSuite roundup we published last week.
[20:51:27] <mandie> he seemed very nice..I felt sort of sorry for him at Warpstock 97...he would have like to have been able to been more positive about os/2
[20:51:54] <os2hq> He seemed *very* happy at the positive response when he offered free Alphas, tho.
[20:52:02] <mandie> yep :)
[20:52:08] <CWenham> mandie, I guess he's a company man and has to toe the line. Not having worked in an institute like that I don't know how much freedom they get.
[20:52:28] <mandie> CWenham: true..
[20:52:44] <os2hq> Chris, you might want to get with Mike if your hit rate is going up....
[20:52:57] <os2hq> Lotus has some funds available for OS/2 ads.
[20:53:13] <os2hq> At least, that's what a certain unnamed source hinted to me.
[20:54:40] <Ogun> Cwenham: do you get the impression that some OS/2 users are moving toward Linux as their successor OS?
[20:54:54] <CWenham> According to Trevor, who handles the advertising sales, Lotus wouldn't give him the time of day when he came to them. IBM is also very hard to deal with.
[20:55:00] <CWenham> Mainly this is because they both advertise through an agency, and it's the agency which doesn't know we exist.
[20:55:01] <os2hq> Hmmmm.....
[20:55:05] <os2hq> Ah.
[20:55:26] <os2hq> Ogilvy & Mather, right?
[20:55:57] <CWenham> Ogun, definately. From the feedback we've been getting I can see that a lot of our readers are also Linux users. And as for more direct evidence, there's that survey we did a few issues back.
* CWenham believes hq is correct.
[20:56:30] <os2hq> Well, I think it might be interesting to offer OS/2 as an alternative to people who've tried Linux and want more non-MS stuff.
* os2hq is seriously considering targeting the Linux market with OS/2 ads.
[20:57:44] <os2hq> I've heard many people say, "Oh, this Linux thing is great, MUCH better than Windoze-whatever. But if only it ran more apps, had a nice interface, was easier to set up....."
[20:57:53] <os2hq> Er, sounds like OS/2 would fit those requirements fine.
[20:57:58] <CWenham> I think when you start advertising OS/2 to the Linux market you'll bump into two kinds of Linux user. Those who believe in the whole open source, free software thing. And those who like power and dislike MS.
[20:58:07] <os2hq> Right.
[20:58:15] <CWenham> You're more likely to have success selling OS/2 to the latter, since the former won't be interested in OS/2's proprietary nature.
[20:58:19] <os2hq> I've noted the strong Open-Source flow behind Linux.
[20:58:24] <os2hq> Right.
[20:58:31] <os2hq> Exactly my thoughts.
[20:58:43] <mandie> I'm very anxious to hear what Dirk has up his sleeve!
[20:58:53] <Swanee> mandie: AMEN!
[20:58:54] <os2hq> The Open Source folks only got really interested in Netscape when it went open.
[20:58:55] <os2hq> Yes, mandie.
[20:59:14] <CWenham> But OS/2 itself has a lot of open software available for it (a big pillar supporting OS/2 in the "little guys" market, in my opinion)
* os2hq wonders what an Open Source version of OS/2 would be like....
[20:59:34] <GentleBen> Woo Hoo
[20:59:37] <GentleBen> :>
[20:59:45] <os2hq> Chris: Yes, I've almost categorized OS/2 as an "open platform" in terms of the number of little guys.
[20:59:47] <mandie> CWenham: but the big draw is the free OS itself and the networking capabilities and stability
[20:59:54] <CWenham> As far as I know, Dirk still wants to keep his little project a secret. But if he pulls it off, it will *ahem* kick major rumpola.
[21:00:07] <mandie> plus free sw
[21:00:07] <os2hq> For example, the front page of WarpCity seems to have 5 or 10 new OS/2 apps a WEEK.
[21:00:17] <os2hq> heh.
[21:01:01] <Joc> -> Until offer an upgrade path for OS/2 at a reasonable price, no Linux user will want to switch, IMHO.
[21:01:04] <mandie> <--- couldn't even tell you what the front page of WarpCity looks like!
[21:01:08] <os2hq> Mandie: I've basically classified OS/2 and Linux similarly in terms of free apps.... only the OS situation is very different.
[21:01:12] <CWenham> Yup, OS/2 apps are still coming, meaning we'll be publishing for quite a while to come too.
[21:01:21] <os2hq> Joc: the price is the main obstacle, agreed.
[21:01:46] <freiheit> There will always be software reviews to do :)
[21:02:09] <os2hq> Chris: I can tell you there are HUNDREDS of OS/2 supporters out there in the "woodwork".
[21:02:28] <os2hq> A project like what Dirk must have in mind will probably have enormous success, if it succeeds at all.
-> CWenham: You can trust us Chris, we won't leak Dirk's secret. :-)
[21:02:34] <Longstaff> more than hundreds surely
[21:02:42] <Joc> -> CWenham, what little project has Dirk??? (no nothing about "Dirk", still new here...)
[21:02:55] <freiheit> No, we won't leak it, we'll just have the log posted on our site for all the public to see :)
[21:02:59] <Ogun> Cwenham: I agree with OS/2 having strong 3rd party support. However, I wonder how much longer that will remain the case. I think that many people see OS/2 as dying mainly because its support from the Free Software sector is not as strong as Linux. Afterall, how do you bankrupt 8 million+ users/programmers?
[21:03:03] <os2hq> Having shipped over 500 bumper stickers in just 2+ months, I know there are many, many folks out there who will put their money where their mouth is.
[21:03:13] <CWenham> Our concern is that big OS/2 apps keep coming, and by that I mean ones the size of PMMail and higher. I don't really enjoy the idea of reviewing lots of little clock programs to fill our pages every month.
[21:03:31] <CWenham> Not that little clock programs are bad, I just don't really want that to be the only kind of programs left to review.
[21:03:43] <Projects> os2hq: does each shipment get sent with a Voice app?
[21:03:43] <Longstaff> good point
[21:04:09] <os2hq> Chris: Yes, that's why I was so happy to see BizWiz for OS/2 -- finally a great accounting package! -- coming out soon.
[21:04:46] <os2hq> Proj: now that you mention it.... I should probably scratch out a paper app. However, most are already POSSI members, or VOICE members.
[21:04:53] <CWenham> BizWiz came out of nowhere. We'd just finished wrapping up a Finance Apps review (and yes, we were going to review InCharge, but the reviewer didn't pull through) when it came out.
[21:04:57] <os2hq> But you're on target there.... I'll crank up the printer tonight.
[21:05:08] <Joc> -> os2hq, price is an obstacle, but an upgrade path is even more important IMO, and at the moment I have trouble to see one for me.
[21:05:13] <jokerl> CWenham: where do you draw the line for little "clock" programs? That mean utilities as a whole, or the less original and useful ones? (Say Dialog Enhancer as an original one, maybe)
[21:05:13] <Projects> os2hq: don't need to scratch one out... there's one already online for printing out
[21:05:21] <os2hq> Proj: will do.
[21:05:37] <CWenham> We've tentatively scheduled BizWiz and it's sister program for later in this year (conditional on its release) and hope to slip the InCharge review in there then.
[21:05:55] <os2hq> Joc: true, the upgrade path is a consideration.... but remember, once you've got a certain critical mass of capabilities within the OS, the key then becomes the addons.
[21:06:19] <os2hq> For example, if MS had a decent OS in 1992, would '95 and '98 even have existed??? They're just placeholders.
-> CWenham: Any chance we will ever see a paper version of OS/2 e-Zine?
[21:07:05] <CWenham> Joker, usually it's a judgement call, taken on a per-program basis. Some tiny 200K download programs are just so neat we have to write a full review of it (DragText for example). Others we try to accommodate in "First Looks and Nifty Gadgets"
[21:07:49] <CWenham> MAD, We've been thinking of that, and that's why you saw the survey a few weeks ago asking just that question. I think ever since we started we had people ask us if we could just print out the web edition and mail it.
[21:07:50] <os2hq> Well, time to go, folks. Great meeting everyone!!!
* Projects rushed off and grabbed Keyboard Enhancer due to coverage in OS/2 e-zine
[21:08:30] <CWenham> But Trevor thought that if we did a print version, we'd have to do it properly, meaning getting DTP software and hiring a printer etc.
[21:08:30] <Joc> -> How many people receive WarpCast?
* GentleBen receives WarpCast
* Projects receives WarpCast
[21:09:29] <CWenham> Joc, directly there are about 5200 subscribers. Indirectly (like through the remailer that services ibm.net customers and the web archive) we haven't a clue.
[21:09:33] <mandie> <--also
[21:09:45] <Swanee> I have to say that WarpCast was a GREAT idea.
* GentleBen has to agree with Swanee
[21:10:02] <GentleBen> ;>
* Projects agrees
[21:10:06] <jokerl> Wasn't that something brad wardell wrote about?
* MADodel would subscribe to a paper version of OS/2 e-Zine.
* jokerl would too.
[21:10:20] <mandie> I would too
[21:10:23] <GentleBen> me too
[21:10:32] <GentleBen> OS/2 needs a paper magazine...
[21:10:34] <jokerl> there you go, four subscribers.
* GentleBen misses OS/2 Magazine
* Swanee would subscribe to anything on OS/2 in paper.
[21:10:43] <CWenham> WarpCast's inception was influenced by that article Brad wrote. I can't say where the idea germinated from though.
[21:10:51] <mandie> you should survey that idea
[21:11:05] <jokerl> Swanee: I'll write something, print it, and you give me money, okay?
* WheatKin would like to see a SOHO os/2 magazine...
[21:11:21] <CWenham> Well Extended Attributes is still publishing in print, and that's not bad.
[21:11:31] <Swanee> jokerl: HEHE! I hope you're reasonably priced. :)
[21:11:34] <GentleBen> bbiab...Sliders is on. :>
[21:11:36] <Longstaff> well, given the expense of the medium, i wonder though if more would be accomplished by allocationg those resources in another direction
[21:11:47] <mandie> CWenham: I would probably get better with competition :)
[21:11:48] <jokerl> <---- ideal person to represent the OS/2 community in print (anybody who knows me knows the real answer)
[21:12:05] <Projects> WheatKin: me too...
* CWenham should have said Extended Attributes is excellent, because it is, but you remember what I said about fierce competitiveness ;)
[21:12:33] <mandie> right :)
* jokerl found his registration for OpenChat
[21:12:46] <mandie> I=It :)
[21:13:12] <freiheit> I'm getting a little tired of my ISP these days *sigh*
[21:13:22] <CWenham> Longstaff, that's what we were thinking too. There's always the server which needs more RAM (mailing 5200 e-mail messages in one gulp does murder to the server's hard drive)
[21:14:01] <jokerl> CWenham: has there been any real problems with the Warpcast server?
[21:14:08] <Longstaff> my suggestion would be to enhance the online product
[21:14:28] <CWenham> We'd also like to expand into more hardware reviews, and that has expenses where we either have to buy the hardware ourselves or at least have to pay to ship the evaluation models back every month etc.
[21:14:47] <CWenham> joker, yes, the main problem is the fact that it's running on Windows NT (DOH! Now I dunnit!)
[21:15:02] <Projects> NT???
[21:15:11] <CWenham> The Post.Office software and NT has been a nightmare.
[21:15:14] <mandie> there goes my faith in mankind!
[21:15:15] <WheatKin> what's NT????
* jokerl thinks he heard a collective gasp from the room
[21:15:29] <WheatKin> heh
[21:15:29] <GentleBen> Heheh...I'll watch Sliders latter tonight. :>
[21:15:30] <Longstaff> nt...no wonder
-> It will be fixed in release 5 though
* Projects has to switch banks 'cause they're switching to NT... now I gotta find new online reading??
[21:16:11] <CWenham> For a while we had to wait 15 minutes between posting WarpCast announcements because the NT server could not handle it. And this was back when the subscriber base was still 2000-3000.
-> So why not switch to Linux or OS/2?
[21:16:37] <jokerl> CWenham: any plans to change the OS?
[21:16:39] <Longstaff> projects - better hurry up...nt is horrendous as any kind of database or transaction platform
[21:16:54] <Joc> -> CWenham, Lyris for OS/2 could not be used?
[21:17:34] <Joc> -> CWenham, 5200 members is a real nice number, I'm real impressed!
[21:17:35] <CWenham> Since I don't run the server I can't say what's needed. But we are seeking a native OS/2 solution.
[21:17:36] <Projects> Longstaff: that's why I'm switching banks... moving from OS/2 to NT is part of their y2k plan
[21:18:05] <CWenham> The OS/2 e-Zine! itself is still hosted on an OS/2 server, Dirk also has a Linux box, a Solaris box, and I think a few other OSes.
[21:18:16] <jokerl> I got yer y2k plan right here.
[21:18:37] <CWenham> I know the OS/2 Supersite is hosted on an OS/2 server because I run Rexx scripts on it with OS/2 functions and APIs =)
[21:19:26] <CWenham> But the NT server has given us innumerable headaches. Sometimes it would just die under the load, and when it was restarted there'd be a dozen empty and undeletable "ghost" messages in the queue.
[21:20:02] <GentleBen> CWenham: Sounds like my worst nightmare. :>
[21:20:22] <Longstaff> imagine those as financial transactions and you can glimpse the future of nt banking
[21:20:50] <GentleBen> Longstaff: It could be a blessing in a way...kind of like dealing in the stock market.. :>
[21:21:15] <WheatKin> gentleben: in that case.. remind me to sell now.. ;-))
[21:21:17] <GentleBen> Longstaff: Wake up the next morning and find out you have $220,000 in the bank instead of $220
[21:21:19] <GentleBen> :>
[21:21:23] <Longstaff> heh...in the y2k i may not owe anybody any money :)
[21:21:38] <jokerl> CWenham: has the change to publishing more issues put a strain on the amount of content; have you had any trouble making good issues?
[21:22:40] <CWenham> Joker, sometimes yes. There was the infamous March '98 article, which prompted a certain ex OS/2 advocate to predict OS/2's demise by pointing to us. That ticked us off like you wouldn't believe.
* MADodel wouldn't mind a few extra deposit transactions in his account
* jokerl goes to look at the March 98 article again.
[21:23:18] <mandie> now everyone will go look at the 3/98 article :)
[21:23:19] <CWenham> The move to bi-weekly has increased the workload, but we're managing. It's forced us to plan and schedule ahead further, which always helps the workload if you can give the reviewers longer lead times.
* WheatKin came in late.. but what about harry martin cartoons... any plan to try to get them in each issue? I like to forcefully install them on co-workers desktops as wall paper.. ;-))
[21:24:13] <mandie> lol
[21:24:38] <CWenham> We'll publish Harry Martin's stuff as fast as he can draw 'em =)
[21:24:40] <GentleBen> Hehehe
[21:25:56] <CWenham> Before we went bi-weekly (and for a short while afterwards) things were really sloppy. We wouldn't put together a focus until a couple of weeks before publishing, mad rushes at the last minute, things like that.
* jokerl thinks the March '98 issue is the best he's ever seen.
[21:26:39] <CWenham> Finally I decided I better do my job or quit, so I drew up a schedule that lays out each issue for the next few months.
[21:27:15] <Joc> -> CWenham, was is a decision that was welcome by all?
[21:27:21] <Joc> -> is=it
[21:27:58] <CWenham> Pretty much, and it made us feel a bit more proffessional about the whole deal =)
[21:29:08] <Joc> -> e-zine sure seems very professional to me! Big thanks (especially when I think about the salary you and the others must be getting...)
[21:29:12] <CWenham> The March issue was kinda *small*. A lot of bad luck just crippled it. We had twice as much stuff scheduled to go into that one =/
[21:29:48] <CWenham> Thank you =) The salary is okay, if you consider it to be a hobby and not a livelyhood =)
[21:29:59] <freiheit> salary? what's that?
* WheatKin loves the e-zine.. it's the first thing i bookmark everytime i re-install windows on my friends machines.. ;-)
[21:30:46] <mandie> CWenham: you guys do a great job!
[21:30:48] <WheatKin> keep up the good work.. it's muchly appreciated..
* Projects doesn't bookmark ezine.... can type in the url faster than finding the bookmark
[21:31:03] <CWenham> The e-Zine! has been a labor of love since its inception. We all want to become mindlessly rich, and that's why Haligonian Media is making efforts to expand, but it's not our day job yet.
[21:31:18] <Joc> -> When one like his jobs, he need no salary... :)
[21:31:33] <jokerl> I happen to disagree with that one...
[21:31:42] <Projects> eh? How do I feed the kids then?
[21:32:04] <jokerl> Projects: There's a problem. You don't.
[21:32:12] <WheatKin> sell the kids?
[21:32:21] <jokerl> Now theres
[21:32:24] <Projects> good plan... anyone buying? :)
[21:32:25] <jokerl> an idea
* jokerl has got to learn to finish what he's typing before pressing enter.
[21:32:46] <CWenham> Well in this job you don't meet any women anyway, so who's talking about kids? =)
[21:33:04] <freiheit> heh
[21:33:12] <Projects> hehehe
[21:33:32] <Joc> -> lol
[21:33:38] <GentleBen> ROFL! :>
[21:33:41] <Projects> CWenham: I'll sell ya a couple of kids, so you don't have to do the in-between steps :)
* freiheit must go but would like to thank Chris for coming tonight.
[21:34:08] <Joc> -> mmmh, that is not exactly what I had in mind when I talked about salary... :-|
-> No, buy my kids instead. I'll give ya a good deal.
[21:34:10] <CWenham> Projects, you'll excuse me if I don't take you up on that *right away* ;)
[21:34:21] <Longstaff> lol
[21:34:28] <CWenham> Thank you, freiheit, for providing an audience =)
[21:34:37] <WheatKin> anyway, where would you like to see os/2 in about a year??? i know myself i'd hate to see everyone using it... too hard to support all those "dummies" reading users
[21:34:42] <jokerl> Child, FDA approved.
[21:34:42] <Projects> CWenham: heh... they'll prolly still be available when you do decide... nobody else wants 'em :)
* jokerl is beginning to wonder just what kind of parent Projects is.
[21:35:54] <jokerl> Projects: do you remember when you were in #os/2 on efnet complaining about parenting?
[21:35:56] <Projects> jokerl: one who works at home, and has kids off for summer vacation...
* CWenham would like to see OS/2 alive in the hands of people who know what they're doing. I recently wrote about my ideas of encouraging OS/2 as an elitist's platform, and I think that there are enough people who care about their computers' efficiency
[21:36:08] <CWenham> to use it.
[21:36:18] <Projects> jokerl: I always complain about that :)
[21:36:19] <jokerl> I liked that article
* WheatKin asks cause i see the os2 ezine as a major leader in the os/2 cause... good to be on the same page..
* jokerl has got to reboot real quick. Be right back.
[21:36:55] <WheatKin> hehe i liked that elitist article.... fit me to a "T"
[21:36:57] <Longstaff> given the level to which windoze is dumbed down, that leaves a lot of space
[21:37:50] <Joc> -> Warpcast talked about a rumour of a new OS/2 client, anything new on that?
[21:38:58] <CWenham> Those rumors are still rumors. I know there are a number of companies outside of IBM who are actively interested in picking up the stick and running with it (and I don't mean just Stardock either)
[21:39:30] <mandie> hmmmm...Falcon Net comes to mind :)
[21:39:32] <WheatKin> the way i see it, microsoft is gonna shoot themselves in the foot by making things too easy.. sure they will sell tons of desktop os software, but when it comes to users that want some power without the fuss, they will be looking for something new. i hope os/2 is that new os that they are looking for. maybe the rumors of a new client would help this area!
[21:39:47] <CWenham> IBM is very likely to be working on a new client, precisely because it would still serve them to keep the client up to date with all the new protocols and BIG COMPANY applications.
[21:39:50] <Joc> -> I really doubt would sell OS/2 code to any party, must come from IBM IMO.
[21:40:28] <CWenham> Joc, some of the plans don't call for the source code to be made available. We're talking about repackaging efforts here.
[21:40:31] <WheatKin> i don't want to see os/2 code leave IBM's hands.. they do a fine job of keeping the os current and mostly bug free..
[21:41:02] <mandie> WheatKin: I agree...people are getting far to technical to put up with MS garbage forever
[21:41:39] <Longstaff> wheatkin - in any case i doubt ibm would seriously considering giving it away, despite nader's very idealistic plea
[21:41:56] <Joc> -> CWenham, I don't like the idea of just doing a repackaging, but anything is better than nothing.
[21:41:56] <WheatKin> i've managed to convert 3 NT die hards with my pentium 75 web/irc/ftp/telnet server.. ;-)
[21:41:58] <CWenham> The thing is, OS/2's "little guy" market share, measured in percentages, is probably below 1% by now. But that's not necessarily bad because the computer market has also GROWN, diluting the same number of OS/2 users in a bigger pool.
* Projects hadn't looked at it from that angle
[21:42:39] <CWenham> I think it's still profitable to write software for OS/2, and it'd be in our best interests to make it more profitable.
[21:42:48] <jokerl> And there was much rejoicing...
* CWenham doesn't like the idea of simply holding our ground. An old business saying is "if you ain't growing, you're dying"
[21:43:10] <jokerl> SIQ sometimes really pisses /me off.
[21:44:05] <CWenham> Repackaging won't be as sexy as a new filesystem and security model, but it would be enough to crowbar OS/2 into more power user's homes and offices.
[21:44:08] <mandie> I'd heard talk of a new client...just being warp 4.0 with all of the fixpacks/updates packaged
* jokerl would kill for warp 5.
[21:44:28] <CWenham> Once that happens, there's a greater chance of IBM producing a REAL new version of the client.
[21:44:50] <WheatKin> mandie: i see no problem with that... i mean what is win98?? dos with a few patches here and there.. not a real os upgrade..
[21:45:01] <GentleBen> mandie: Same here...I heard there *IS* suppose to be a Warp 4.1 FP released latter this year or early 1999
[21:45:04] <mandie> I'd buy the *complete* package...too much time wasted applying all of the updates
[21:45:07] <Joc> -> CWenham, very true, OS/2 MUST upgrade. I think that it would be a lot more than 1% if IBM would show more interest in the little guys.
[21:45:11] <GentleBen> but don't quote me on that. ;>
[21:45:43] <WheatKin> i would buy warp 4.1 or whatever it would be labelled..
-> Remember all this is logged. :-)
[21:45:52] <GentleBen> ROFL! :>
[21:45:56] <GentleBen> Uh oh... ;>
[21:46:02] <jokerl> Hell, I'd buy Warp 4.0.1...
[21:46:05] <mandie> WheatKin: and they said MS has broken records by having a patch in beta prior to the first week of releasing win98
[21:46:07] <WheatKin> hehehe.. ok.. i'll still buy it!
[21:46:08] <jokerl> wait no,
[21:46:26] <jokerl> mandie: who said that?
[21:46:37] <Joc> -> CWenham, I don't understand, why repackaging would help to have a "REAL new version"?
[21:46:41] <WheatKin> mandie: marketing ploy.. some companies refuse to install 98 without atleast 1 patch available for the os..
[21:46:42] <mandie> jokerl: it was on zdnet
[21:46:46] <GentleBen> still love the fact how buggy Win98 is...makes Win95 look like a dream. :/
[21:46:56] <Longstaff> i thought the strategy behind software choice was to provide upgraded functionality without playing the version number game
[21:47:04] <jokerl> zdnet'll publish anything
[21:47:15] <mandie> wheatkin: there have been some major problems..especially on laptops and companies have warned NOT to install until bugs are fixed
[21:47:42] <WheatKin> longstaff: version numbers move product.. plain simple fact..
[21:47:52] <WheatKin> mandie: i know i work in the computer consulting industry.. i deal with MS problems everyday..
[21:47:56] <CWenham> Joc, IBM was scared away big-time from the consumer market by the guys who call their high-paid tech support technicians in the hundreds of thousands, asking how to make DOOM work....
[21:48:00] <mandie> longstaff: that's all well and good...but after awhile...doing a reinstall is a real PITA
[21:48:43] <mandie> Wheatkin: then you are more aware of the problems than I :)
[21:48:43] <CWenham> If OS/2 can be re-packaged in such as way as to appeal more to power users and people who know what they're doing, IBM could see it'd be worth their while to make a new version for them - the people who won't waste their time with trivial questions.
[21:48:45] <Longstaff> mandie...it's an awful lot simpler with the fp on cd
[21:48:47] <GentleBen> CWenham: Hear anything from Hauppauge about the WinCast/2 drivers???
* jokerl agrees
[21:49:27] <WheatKin> hummm now only if M$ could adhear to java standards, life would be good..
[21:49:29] <CWenham> GentleBen, 'fraid not.
[21:49:55] <Swanee> Maybe we need to provide support outside of IBM for home/SOHO users
[21:49:57] <GentleBen> CWenham: That's one thing that's holding me back right now from erasing Win95 from my computer...
-> But then there is Y2k, and new hardware that wasn't dreamed of 2 years ago. Warp needs a refresh.
[21:50:18] <GentleBen> CWenham: That's mainly the only thing I need Win95 for other than RealAudio encoding...
[21:50:39] <WheatKin> i know i had a pain trying to install warp without getting the right DASD drivers first... ;-)
[21:50:45] <GentleBen> CWenham: But that's changing because I'm installing Linux on my system tommorrow. :>
* CWenham wonders why IBM didn't just hire a company that would handle their SOHO tech support for them (or do what Microsoft does and force the OEM to handle it... oh whoops, that assumes OS/2 is significantly preloaded anywhere =/
[21:52:28] <jokerl> hehe
[21:52:44] <WheatKin> oem installs of os/2 would be awesome.. ready made internet servers.. just add data..
[21:53:02] <WheatKin> plug it in and go...
[21:53:04] <Longstaff> maybe ibm didn't do that because it's fundamentally dishonest and ultimately harmful to the industry
* jokerl has a horrific image of OS/2 on Packerd Bells
* Projects ran OS/2 on a packard hell for a while
[21:53:36] <CWenham> Longstaff, forcing the OEM to handle tech support?
* WheatKin had a mail server like that.. mail and firewall.. ran linux in a tiny little box from whistle communications... awesome little box..
[21:53:50] <Longstaff> hey joker - i installed warp on a packard bell
* GentleBen chuckles at joker1's thought
[21:54:05] <jokerl> *gasp*
[21:54:16] <CWenham> . o O (Heck, somebody installed Warp 4 on a Toshiba Liberetto!)
[21:54:30] <WheatKin> awesome...
[21:54:37] <Joc> CWenham, charging to answer question like how to install Doom is not difficult! But I read an article about the huge amount spend on PowerPC was one major reason for the current situation.
[21:54:44] <mandie> On behalf of VOICE, we would like to thank Chris for being our guest tonight and sharing his knowledge with us
[21:54:55] <jokerl> woah, you ending this mandie?
[21:55:01] <mandie> Also, a big hearty thanks for supporting OS/2
[21:55:01] <Longstaff> CWenham - my point was that the way m$ landed OEMs with the whole mess was a disgrace
[21:55:12] <mandie> no no....feel free to stay and chat as long as you'd like
[21:55:25] <mandie> #voice is always here :)
[21:55:27] <CWenham> Joc, oooh yes, the PowerPC problem. I didn't really know how badly that had gone until Brad Wardell wrote about it. But for IBM, the PowerPC was a risk worth taking. That's business.
[21:55:41] <jokerl> is the logging stopped?
[21:55:48] <jokerl> can we say what we really think?
[21:55:50] <WheatKin> they gained a lot from the project i think...
[21:55:54] <WheatKin> heheheh
[21:56:19] <GentleBen> Wheatking: Yea, they gained alot of Mad PPC users that wanted OS/2. ;>
[21:56:19] <mandie> yes, we will stop logging now...so tell us what you really think :)
[21:56:21] <CWenham> Longstaff, yes, it means you end up getting different quality of support for the same product.