08-03-02 11:09:10 <kim> BTW, we are getting close to finalize a brand name for the upcoming eCS/VPC package.
08-03-02 11:09:29 <kim> We decided to go with "eComStation WorkSpace OS"
08-03-02 11:10:48 <kim> And the slogon will be: Platform neutrality today.
08-03-02 11:11:15 <kim> or rather "Platform neutrality - Today"
08-03-02 11:12:05 <Rat-Salad> interesting.
08-03-02 11:20:43 <Sector> How's 1.1 looking¿
08-03-02 11:22:15 <kim> Joachim can talk about 1.1 this afternoon.
08-03-02 11:22:41 <kim> I have the project summary report but they are most involved with it.
08-03-02 11:37:31 <jake> Hey... let me tell you about the project I'm working on.
08-03-02 11:42:06 <jake> The next version of eComStation will be version 1.1, and should be out by early-mid fall.
08-03-02 11:42:42 <bela> i've seen the scrrenshot of the installation-routine ..
08-03-02 11:42:46 <jake> It will include some notable user interface enhancements to the desktop, an up to date version of Smartsuite, plus more software than you can shake a stick at in a month of Sundays.
08-03-02 11:42:47 <bela> looking good
08-03-02 11:43:11 <jake> It will have a greatly improved installer, which should help make the platform accessible to the masses.
08-03-02 11:43:11 <bela> btw: i have successfully tested the bootcd-demo-stuff ...
08-03-02 11:44:15 <bela> yes - an improved installer is important
08-03-02 11:44:42 <jake> Also, with version 1.1, it will be possible to start supporting various NLS (National Language) versions of eComStation... so versions in German, French, and Spanish should be forthcoming reasonably shortly after the English 1.1 release.
08-03-02 11:45:25 <bela> good news
08-03-02 11:45:27 <Egon> so how much is 1.1??? is there an Upgrade price?
08-03-02 11:45:41 <Sector> NLS versions will help for those markets
08-03-02 11:45:44 <jake> Egon: yes... but I don't know how much it will be. I wouldn't think it would be onerous, though.
08-03-02 11:45:57 <Sector> Egon or included with upgrade protection
08-03-02 11:46:02 <jake> NLS will help me a lot... it's hard to sell in Quebec without a French version:)
08-03-02 11:46:26 <Talon> When can we expect another test drop of the BootCD?
08-03-02 11:46:48 <Egon> So, um, not to be too direct about it, but when will 1.1 be out? And is there a way to get my hands on a copy very quickly?
08-03-02 11:47:06 <kim> We can not promise an exact date.
08-03-02 11:47:13 <jake> Egon: if you want to get it as soon as possible, get Upgrade Protection.
08-03-02 11:47:32 <Egon> I want to put up tutorials on how to install it as soon as possible
08-03-02 11:47:38 <kim> It really doesn't help anybody to target an exact date.
08-03-02 11:47:46 <jake> As Kim says... no exact date, but I believe that there has been mention of permitting UP subscribers access to the release candidates as they become available.
08-03-02 11:48:16 <jake> kim: agreed... better when it's done than pushing something half-baked out the door.
08-03-02 11:48:28 <bela> i think we have to wait for warpstock for a more exact date ;-)
08-03-02 11:49:25 <kim> In addition, 1.1 development is largely coordinated by Mensys. So, it would be better to ask Joachim this afternoon.
08-03-02 11:50:42 <bela> ahh - just a NLS -question : I've seen the BootCD test drop natively supports a codepage of 1004,850 ... will it be possible to install eCS with that settings without having problems with "german umlauts" ?
08-03-02 11:51:23 <Rat-Salad> if I'm not mistaken here.. someone said earlier that upgrade protection customers will get 1.1 at no charge?
08-03-02 11:51:36 <jake> Not exactly... UP is the charge.
08-03-02 11:51:39 <WarpedOS2> Kim - what is the response now to getting new updates....does SWC put it out first and then we see it on eCS site or what?
08-03-02 11:51:45 <jake> No additional charge would probably be more accurate.
08-03-02 11:51:56 <Sector> Supposed to be included with Upgrade protection assuming it hasn't expired (which it shouldn't by the release of 1.1)
08-03-02 11:52:00 <Rat-Salad> well yeah.. true.. but you know what I mean
08-03-02 11:52:03 <eCSNL> That is true warpedos2
08-03-02 11:52:17 <eCSNL> but the time between geting on SWC
08-03-02 11:52:19 <eCSNL> and ecs.com
08-03-02 11:52:23 <eCSNL> is aonly a couple of days
08-03-02 11:52:35 <jake> sometimes only hours...
08-03-02 11:52:45 <WarpedOS2> Ok...my SWC subscription just ran out and I was debating whether to renew it
08-03-02 11:53:20 <jake> Warpedos2: one thing to remember... the only difference between SWC and eCS is that eCS 1.0 doesn't include the web browser.
08-03-02 11:53:34 <jake> You can continue to get new drivers, patches, and updates... but upgrades are out.
08-03-02 11:53:56 <kim> "the web browser" - meaning the IBM brand of the browser. You get Mozilla instead of Warpzilla.
08-03-02 11:53:56 <jake> So, tcpip 4.3.2 is part of the base eComStation entitlement.... but the IBM web browser is not.
08-03-02 11:54:09 <jake> Yes... IMHO, mozilla is better anyway.
08-03-02 11:54:32 <bela> yes indeed - sincs mozilla 1 GA :-)
08-03-02 11:54:43 <WarpedOS2> So I should maintain eCS upgrd protection rather than SWC?
08-03-02 11:54:56 <jake> Actually, I'd say significantly better since 0.9.8:)
08-03-02 11:55:07 <kim> Yes - but there are companies out there that would rather buy paper from IBM then Office Depot.
08-03-02 11:55:27 <jake> WarpedOS2: if you want to get 1.1, try to buy UP before the official release announcement is made.
08-03-02 11:55:28 <bela> warpedOS2: imo, yes -btw - i'not affiliated with serentiy or mensys
08-03-02 11:55:50 <jake> Whereas I am... so my word is tainted by crass commercial interests:)
08-03-02 11:56:18 <bela> interesting to hear: with UP (bought today) i'll get 1.1 for free ?
08-03-02 11:56:35 <bela> or just for media shipping costs ...?
08-03-02 11:56:42 <jake> bela: at no additional charge... though your distributor may want shipping costs...
08-03-02 11:56:49 <jake> er, yeah:)
08-03-02 11:56:51 <kim> *no additional charge* - no08-03-02 12:00:23
08-03-02 12:00:33 <jake> No, you don't, warpedos2
08-03-02 12:00:39 <Rat-Salad> its all there in the members section of the ecs site
08-03-02 12:00:48 <jake> Drivers get posted to the ecomstation.com website.
08-03-02 12:00:50 <Rat-Salad> don't even need upgrade protection for that stuff
08-03-02 12:01:31 <Rat-Salad> currectly only thing in the upgrade protection section is Lotus SS, and IBM Browser
08-03-02 12:01:50 <bela> Kim, Roderick: UP = only SmartSuite 1.7 now, right ? and an included 1.1 if bought before announcement, correct ?
08-03-02 12:02:19 <Sector> SmartSuite 1.7 and the IBM version of Mozilla
08-03-02 12:02:35 <sev0600> Kim, have you had a chance to build a WiseTalker Box with either 1.0 or 1.1 yet if so how stable is it?
08-03-02 12:02:41 <MaxWarp> when IWB 2.0 will be out?
08-03-02 12:02:55 <MaxWarp> i'm an IGS employee but everything regarding OS2 is like a mistery at ibm... :(
08-03-02 12:03:12 <kim> sev0600: I sold eCS serial number 00000001 and 00000002 to Disney for running WiseTalker.
08-03-02 12:03:36 <kim> It's been in the field for 18 months and I haven't heard any problem.
08-03-02 12:04:01 <jake> maxwarp: c'mon... os/2 is death for a services oriented organisation... no recurring income fixing the problems that crop up.
08-03-02 12:04:02 <Rat-Salad> disney... world?
08-03-02 12:04:09 <kim> DisneyLand.
08-03-02 12:04:16 <Sector> Nah, kim's in Southern California
08-03-02 12:05:41 <MaxWarp> kim: what's wisetalker?
08-03-02 12:06:12 <MaxWarp> jake: i'm an IGS employee i know well this situation...
08-03-02 12:06:29 <MaxWarp> kim: what's exactly wisetalker?
08-03-02 12:06:43 <kim> CTI application generator.
08-03-02 12:10:16 <bela> Kim, Roderick: UP = only SmartSuite 1.7 now, right ? and an included 1.1 if bought before announcement, correct ?
08-03-02 12:10:42 <bela> and the IBM WB ...
08-03-02 12:10:44 <Rat-Salad> SmartSuite and IBM branded Browser
08-03-02 12:11:15 <bela> well both items are uninteresting for me ;) using PAPYRUS here and Mozilla
08-03-02 12:11:53 <kim> And fixes to other applications...
08-03-02 12:12:26 <Skip> How does virtual PC fit with this new version??
08-03-02 12:12:46 <kim> The only thing you get if you are *not* an UP subscriber are device drivers and IBM fixes.
08-03-02 12:12:55 <kim> We will talk about VPC in a moment.
08-03-02 12:13:07 <MaxWarp> that applying fixpaks to eCS should be very very easy
08-03-02 12:13:10 <bela> thank you, kim
08-03-02 12:13:16 <MaxWarp> so that every normal user can do it
08-03-02 12:13:38 <kim> MaxWarp: Point taken, let's move on.
08-03-02 12:14:48 <kim> Anything else about 1.1?
08-03-02 12:15:43 <Sector> Hmmm, new features¿
08-03-02 12:16:53 <kim> The main focus for 1.1 has been to complete what we set out to do with 1.0.
08-03-02 12:19:28 <kim> eCS 1.1 is *frozen*
08-03-02 12:19:49 <kim> from a feature standpoint.
08-03-02 12:19:56 <bela> will there be any different version of RealPlayer in eCS 1.1 ?
08-03-02 12:20:14 <bela> I never managed to run the version from 1.0 ...
08-03-02 12:22:14 <kim> With the design of the 1.1 installer, I think it's feasible to have a replacement CD delivered to those people that couldn't install eCS 1.0 (for an handling charge) but it will be based on MCP #1 - not MCP #2.
08-03-02 12:22:51 <kim> The thing to do is to get involve with the beta testing process so we can determine whether the process will be worth your time.
08-03-02 12:23:42 <bela> sorry - probably it was misleading - i mean the RealPlayer of eCS1 ... (installation of ECS went fine! for me)
08-03-02 12:24:09 <kim> Oh, the RealPlayer.
08-03-02 12:24:23 <bela> yes :-)
08-03-02 12:24:41 <bela> i never managed to run this app
08-03-02 12:24:48 <kim> The real player has to be installed *exactly* as what the instruction says. A slight deviation would render it unusable.
08-03-02 12:25:11 <kim> Common issue would be using a wrong version of ODIN.
08-03-02 12:25:19 <bela> I did what the instruction said ...
08-03-02 12:25:30 <bela> I used the version you shipped ...
08-03-02 12:25:50 <jake> Um... not to put too fine a point on it... but I don't know that this is a support forum.
08-03-02 12:26:03 <kim> Then it would work. Post a message at the news.ecomstation.nl (application)
08-03-02 12:26:10 <hugh__> bela what was your probelsm?
08-03-02 12:26:13 <jake> bela: why don't you post to ecomstation.apps.misc at news.ecomstation.nl?
08-03-02 12:26:18 <bela> I'snt there a chance to make a ZIP of a correct configured Realplayer ?
08-03-02 12:26:30 <kim> Let's go back to the topic on hand.
08-03-02 12:26:46 <hugh__> bela nope, as it also contains heaps of registry entries
08-03-02 12:26:51 <bela> jake, probalby i'll do so
08-03-02 12:27:05 <bela> hugh, i see ...
08-03-02 12:27:18 <jake> bela: you'll probably get more substantive help there anyway... more people, and not time dependent.
08-03-02 12:27:27 <bela> kim, i think this is an issue
08-03-02 12:27:59 <kim> The #1 problem we have to resolve is the dreadful "Unable to operate your hard drive"
08-03-02 12:27:59 <jake> There are a lot of issues... we can only take them on as we have the resources to do so.
08-03-02 12:28:09 <jake> kim: I 100% agree... let's walk before we run.
08-03-02 12:28:32 <kim> This issue has been the show stopper for the demo CD.
08-03-02 12:29:18 <jake> kim: Has the memdisk utility helped in that at all?
08-03-02 12:29:38 <kim> 1.1 is using a method from Veit Kanniesieser call memdisk that shows some promise of resolving this issue.
08-03-02 12:29:47 <Rat-Salad> I did have some problems with getting the IDE drivers to work properly with this new KT266A motherboard
08-03-02 12:30:12 <kim> It's imperative for all those that experience boot problems with the eCS 1.0 CD to participate in the testing process.
08-03-02 12:30:59 <jake> kim: I was under the impression that this message was always because of a drive letter shift at boot time...
08-03-02 12:31:20 <kim> Jake, that's a bottom catcher message.
08-03-02 12:31:50 <jake> kim: I think that's why the os2 mcp boots always run vcu at boot time... to make sure that the drive letters get cast in stone BEFORE the rest of the config.sys gets processed...
08-03-02 12:31:54 <kim> *Anything* that goes wrong during the boot process will result in that message.
08-03-02 12:32:30 <jake> kim: not true... not anything. Only anything dasd related... unless you know of a different reason.
08-03-02 12:32:46 <kim> Not necessarily.
08-03-02 12:32:53 <kim> It can be CD related as well.
08-03-02 12:33:11 <jake> CD is dasd related, Kim.
08-03-02 12:33:20 <kim> We would turn OS2DASD.DMD off, turn CDFS off, and still see the message.
08-03-02 12:34:10 <jake> kim: get out... no dasd and you would get that message? Which module generates it?
08-03-02 12:34:19 <hugh__> kernel
08-03-02 12:34:31 <kim> The Alt-F1, S option when booted from CD doesn't load any of the DASD drivers and filters. It runs purely on boot floppy images - and you can still see it.
08-03-02 12:34:47 <jake> Final error when the kernel can't get a file?
08-03-02 12:36:23 <kim> When you boot using the Alt-F1, S option, and turn off OS2DASD from the pre-boot screen, you are running purely from the 2.88 boot floppy image. Yet, we have seen cases where even that would fail to get you to the command line.
08-03-02 12:36:55 <jake> Wow... kim, what do you need to unpack the boot image?
08-03-02 12:37:15 <kim> Jake: Don't understand your message.
08-03-02 12:37:59 <jake> I didn't realise that the boot image (boot.bin) would pass that message. I never get it here... so what's the right tool to unpack boot.bin so I can take a look?
08-03-02 12:38:34 <jake> Maybe something'll strike me and I can lend a hand to fixing it...
08-03-02 12:38:38 <kim> So, as I was saying, the #1 enermy on my "to do list" is the dreadful "Unable to operate your ..." message.
08-03-02 12:39:02 <kim> There are now 2 options to try to address this problem...
08-03-02 12:39:25 <kim> Option #1: Veit Kannegieser's memboot method.
08-03-02 12:39:38 <kim> Option #2: Daniella's DANIBOOT.FLT method.
08-03-02 12:40:21 <kim> Veit's method uses a ramdisk to boot and is the one currently in use for the 1.1 test track...
08-03-02 12:40:54 <kim> So, if you want to help, join the beta testing process.
08-03-02 12:41:05 <hugh__> kim: and probably the only one which could make to work in non emulation mode
08-03-02 12:42:01 <kim> Daniela's method continues to use the emulation mode but the "switch-over" from diskette #1 to diskette #2 is her code....
08-03-02 12:42:29 <kim> It would be interesting to see if this would help in some cases...
08-03-02 12:43:03 <kim> What we need is somebody to head a testing team to try out Daniela's method since most of the boot team is focusing on Veit's method.
08-03-02 12:44:06 <kim> The fustrating part is that for the machine I am seeing the failure, I can stick a W98 boot CD in it and it would boot W98 fine!
08-03-02 12:44:37 <kim> This is a machine with DVD-CD/RW and W98 certainly doesn't know anything about this hardware.
08-03-02 12:44:43 <jake> kim: which machine?
08-03-02 12:44:50 <kim> The DeskNote machine I am typing on.
08-03-02 12:44:56 <Talon> Windows doesn't use emulation mode...
08-03-02 12:45:11 <kim> They use DOS mode, I think.
08-03-02 12:45:25 <jake> They stick to BIOS calls only?
08-03-02 12:45:53 <jake> If so... lotta to-the-metal programming there... a LOT.
08-03-02 12:46:16 <kim> Unless we resolve this, there is no sense releasing the demoCD because it will fail in a unknown percentage of the hardware out there.
08-03-02 12:47:59 <jake> kim: If you want to test that, I can try... but I have no hardware that does this, so it's hard to see that I'm the right person.
08-03-02 12:48:13 <kim> Jake, try any of the Sony machines.
08-03-02 12:48:16 * jake checks carefully for warp compatibility before laying out the hard earned dollar.
08-03-02 12:49:08 <kim> Just take the bootable CD and go to your nearnest computer store.
08-03-02 12:49:31 <kim> We can't continue to do that. eCS must be bootable from any store brought systems.
08-03-02 12:49:39 <jake> That's a long way away from where I live now... but I'll burn the test track again and see what I can come up with.
08-03-02 12:49:45 <Talon> Linux uses emulation mode...I wonder if there is a large source of information related to this issue in the Linux community?
08-03-02 12:49:50 <jake> Mebbe in a week or two.
08-03-02 12:50:04 <jake> There probably is, I would think...
08-03-02 12:50:21 <jake> Ok, gotta go. Ease! Enjoy your eCS boxen!
08-03-02 12:50:33 <kim> Veit and Daniela feels that they know the issue. Just need everybody to find these problem hardware...
08-03-02 12:50:47 <kim> and help with the testing.
08-03-02 12:52:38 <kim> What else we want to talk about?
08-03-02 12:53:57 <Talon> Will you be able to include OpenWatcom in v1.1?
08-03-02 12:54:20 <hugh__> Most likely yes
08-03-02 12:54:35 <kim> We talked about this last week - in our first *all Serenity* person to person meeting ( :=) )
08-03-02 12:55:04 <kim> We need to define what the purpose of eCS is.
08-03-02 12:55:25 <kim> I don't want to just throw in everything and make that a "package".
08-03-02 12:55:53 <kim> We still favor putting together a developer CD with the appropriate contents.
08-03-02 12:56:18 <jake> I'm working on some of the openwatcom stuff... hopefully we'll see some real results real soon now.
08-03-02 12:56:52 <jake> The compile using only the binary release and the toolkit that ships with ecs is progressing a lot further now, but isn't completing properly quite yet.
08-03-02 12:57:25 <jake> At any rate... openwatcom is making huge strides for the new openwatcom user on the platform.
08-03-02 12:57:59 <jake> Give it a little more time, and I hope to be able to build a really solid dev CD for people to use.
08-03-02 12:58:31 <kim> Jake, we are conducting a survey of an enterprise customer and see what their needs are..
08-03-02 13:01:04 <kim> Things that appears to be top on their list of needs are compiler and editor.
08-03-02 13:01:23 <kim> Seems like they really want SlickEdit bad.
08-03-02 13:02:07 <Talon> and since OpenWatcom is the only C/C++ compiler with any life in it would appear to be important...
08-03-02 13:02:47 <kim> Yes, OpenWatcom is important but we want to go further...
08-03-02 13:03:04 <kim> We want to port the IBM OpenClass library over and make it available.
08-03-02 13:03:24 <kim> We want to include a world class programmer's editor...
08-03-02 13:03:44 <bela> why IBM OCL ?
08-03-02 13:04:02 <kim> Because that's the one being use by the enterprise..
08-03-02 13:04:10 <bela> the lack of Trolltech's QT is a great hole for OS/2
08-03-02 13:04:33 <Talon> a good editor is badly needed...what are you thinking about?
08-03-02 13:04:55 <kim> bela, what's QT?
08-03-02 13:05:01 <Rat-Salad> ehh there is QT in some sense.. after all there is a port of KDE
08-03-02 13:05:11 <kim> Nick, they favor SlickEdit.
08-03-02 13:05:25 <bela> QT is used by KDE
08-03-02 13:05:31 <bela> it ist ported to win and Mac ...
08-03-02 13:05:50 <bela> done by trolltech.no
08-03-02 13:06:26 <Rat-Salad> theres a QT port for XFree86 OS/2 anyway
08-03-02 13:06:27 <bela> it's an important gui-libary - as its easy to make platform independent development
08-03-02 13:07:08 <Rat-Salad> there's GTK+ as well
08-03-02 13:07:23 <bela> but who will use xfree ?
08-03-02 13:07:53 <bela> if I have to use xfree to run my app - i can switch to e.g. linux ...
08-03-02 13:08:21 <bela> i think kim is speaking of real native app-development
08-03-02 13:08:30 <Rat-Salad> ohh.. i feel the same way.. I have been using HobLink X11 for such apps
08-03-02 13:08:57 <kim> Rat-Salad, why not run Linux in VPC?
08-03-02 13:08:58 <bela> if enterprises still use IBM OCL its ok
08-03-02 13:09:19 <kim> The IBM OCL is actually quite good.
08-03-02 13:09:19 <bela> but i do not think it will attaract new developer for eCS ...
08-03-02 13:09:25 <Rat-Salad> in order for there to be QT, GTK+, etc.. Xlib has to be present
08-03-02 13:10:13 <bela> most developer which are not using Ms C++ are using multiplatform stuff like QT
08-03-02 13:10:29 <kim> bela: If people can come to an agreement what other gui-library to support, we would want to support that as well.
08-03-02 13:10:32 <Rat-Salad> its a project.. which I think is the point of the EverBlue project (http://everblue.netlabs.org) which I haven't heard much about in a long time now
08-03-02 13:11:03 <bela> QT has two licenses -> a free one for non commercial projects, and an commercial by trolltech.no
08-03-02 13:11:12 <kim> But it seems there are multiple options there. (I am hearing QT for the first time).
08-03-02 13:11:33 <bela> kim - probably you should have a look an trolltech ...
08-03-02 13:11:43 <kim> bela: noted.
08-03-02 13:11:47 <bela> QT is used widley out there :-)
08-03-02 13:12:23 <kim> Ok, back to eCS.
08-03-02 13:12:42 <Rat-Salad> personally I think I would have to favor having GTK+ on OS/2 first.. to have a good graphics app on the OS/2 desktop natively (The GIMP)
08-03-02 13:13:05 <kim> As I was saying, I wouldn't expect anything "earth shaking" between 1.1 and 1.0.
08-03-02 13:13:49 <Rat-Salad> both QT, and GTK+ are widely used widget sets
08-03-02 13:13:54 <kim> The main thing is continue to be the installation process and the look and feel area.
08-03-02 13:14:19 <kim> MCP 2 and SS 1.7, plus various fixes and new device drivers integrated...
08-03-02 13:14:28 <kim> better NLS support...
08-03-02 13:14:43 <eCSLawyer> Well multimedia is getting a lift where possble...
08-03-02 13:15:05 <eCSLawyer> I have a question
08-03-02 13:15:15 <kim> Yes, Rod has spent a fair amount of time on that department...
08-03-02 13:15:30 <eCSLawyer> Chris Wolgemuth has released new MM classes for OS/2..
08-03-02 13:15:40 <bela> cool stuff !
08-03-02 13:15:44 <eCSLawyer> I'm on the point of making a modified install of MMOS/2 that uses
08-03-02 13:15:53 <eCSLawyer> his classes by default!
08-03-02 13:16:10 <bela> good idea ! nice to hear
08-03-02 13:16:18 <eCSLawyer> AT this very moment we almost have a good and, well basicly "supported"
08-03-02 13:16:28 <eCSLawyer> way of removing MMOS/2 cleaning of a system
08-03-02 13:16:36 <eCSLawyer> remove all classes
08-03-02 13:16:38 <MADecsSMP> I've seen some reports of those classes destrying a few folks WPS.
08-03-02 13:16:52 <eCSLawyer> *the multimedia folder
08-03-02 13:16:59 <eCSLawyer> *cleaning up the config.sys
08-03-02 13:17:09 <eCSLawyer> *cleaning up the MMOS/2 directory
08-03-02 13:17:24 <eCSLawyer> By default now an MJPEG Codec will installed, IBM's video play back stuff
08-03-02 13:17:31 <eCSLawyer> ,AVI codecs of mainconcept
08-03-02 13:17:40 <eCSLawyer> and Openmpeg 1 from IBM
08-03-02 13:17:54 <eCSLawyer> and at Divx support there is BEING *LOOKED*
08-03-02 13:17:56 <Rat-Salad> AVI... that includes DIVX?
08-03-02 13:18:02 <eCSLawyer> Nope
08-03-02 13:18:12 <eCSLawyer> AVI RAt Salad is a collection name
08-03-02 13:18:17 <eCSLawyer> of many video formats
08-03-02 13:18:24 <eCSLawyer> its not one file format
08-03-02 13:18:31 <Rat-Salad> yep.. thats the reason I asked that
08-03-02 13:18:41 <eCSLawyer> The problem for eCS is patents
08-03-02 13:18:50 <bela> is there a chance to deselect some of these items (eg. i prefere warpvision instead openmgeg) ... ?
08-03-02 13:19:00 <eCSLawyer> spreading MP 3 players and Divx players via internet looks harmless
08-03-02 13:19:08 <eCSLawyer> as far as I can tell
08-03-02 13:19:10 <eCSLawyer> HOWEVER
08-03-02 13:19:23 <eCSLawyer> People who want to see warpvision in there
08-03-02 13:19:29 <eCSLawyer> the problem is patents
08-03-02 13:19:38 <eCSLawyer> Divx has patents in multimedia
08-03-02 13:19:51 <eCSLawyer> multimedia=file format
08-03-02 13:20:05 <Rat-Salad> so.. it has to remain third party..
08-03-02 13:20:15 <eCSLawyer> Same thing goes for Fraunhoffer and Thomson when it comes to MP3
08-03-02 13:20:16 <eCSLawyer> NO
08-03-02 13:20:36 <bela> but you can include OGG
08-03-02 13:20:36 <eCSLawyer> Third party or open source and all does other buzz words are worthless (sadly :) )
08-03-02 13:20:57 <eCSLawyer> Well Bela even that is doubtfull
08-03-02 13:21:09 <eCSLawyer> You need to understand that we are selling a commercial OS
08-03-02 13:21:17 <bela> d'ohh
08-03-02 13:21:23 <bela> i see want you man
08-03-02 13:21:29 <bela> man= mean
08-03-02 13:21:31 <Rat-Salad> by third party, I meant not included with the OS
08-03-02 13:22:28 <eCSLawyer> we are much easier to get
08-03-02 13:22:28 <eCSLawyer> we have adress website etc...
08-03-02 13:22:28 <eCSLawyer> Open source developers are worldwide
08-03-02 13:22:28 <eCSLawyer> People come and leave projects
08-03-02 13:22:28 <eCSLawyer> and projects are mobile and mirrored at websites....
08-03-02 13:22:28 <eCSLawyer> Not easy to capture and not worthwhile
08-03-02 13:24:40 <eCSLawyer> Oke thats multimedia and patents...
08-03-02 13:24:45 <bela> what about putting all this stuff on a extra CD (with a second installation routine after the OS) ... so you can say "this is for free" we only take some money for making this CD
08-03-02 13:24:45 <bela> the same thing redhat and suse dos with linux stuff
08-03-02 13:24:49 <kim> Okay, Rod, understood. Let's move on.
08-03-02 13:25:44 <eCSNL> Oke but I do have some other interesting news that could directly effect your multimedia experience... It looks like in a quite stable form we can release soundblaster emulation for in DOS sessions
08-03-02 13:25:52 <eCSNL> this will work indipended of your soundcard
08-03-02 13:26:21 <Sector> That would be good
08-03-02 13:28:46 <eCSNL> in the same way as the generic WIN/OS2 sound driver which can be found on home.wanadoo.nl/rwklein
08-03-02 13:28:47 <bela> VDMA stuff...?
08-03-02 13:28:47 <bela> VCOMPACT,VSOUND ...
08-03-02 13:28:47 <bela> right ?
08-03-02 13:28:47 <eCSNL> So if you have a PCI card and want to play your DOS games it should work...
08-03-02 13:28:47 <eCSNL> There is also being worked an a USB webcam driver
08-03-02 13:28:47 <eCSNL> and a new sound interface for eCS which will be beter and can work BESIDES MMOS/2 with breaking things...
08-03-02 13:28:47 <eCSNL> with=without
08-03-02 13:28:48 <eCSNL> well vdma.sys yes that has to do with it :)
08-03-02 13:28:56 <kim> "indipended" meaning "independent", I assume.
08-03-02 13:29:04 <eCSNL> yes
08-03-02 13:31:45 <kim> Any more questions on 1.1?
08-03-02 13:32:39 <eCSNL> Requested ?
08-03-02 13:32:44 <bela> yes -
08-03-02 13:32:44 <eCSNL> Idea's for 1.1
08-03-02 13:32:57 <eCSNL> Well talk everything we love to hear from you :)
08-03-02 13:33:04 <bela> xworkplace will be shipped with 1.1
08-03-02 13:33:34 <kim> Rod: Reminder that feature set for 1.1 is *frozen*.
08-03-02 13:33:35 <eCSNL> yes
08-03-02 13:33:51 <eCSNL> Well Kim a enhancement
08-03-02 13:33:55 <eCSNL> config.sys setting
08-03-02 13:34:07 <Rat-Salad> I like your plan.. focus on what the users need.. wabt
08-03-02 13:34:13 <Rat-Salad> wants come later
08-03-02 13:34:23 <kim> We can talk about future wants later. :=)
08-03-02 13:34:40 <Skip> Kim - Any info about virtualpc and 1.1??
08-03-02 13:36:05 <kim> The InJoy dialer has served eCS well.
08-03-02 13:43:13 <bela> Kim - what's about 1.1 and VPC as addon ?
08-03-02 13:43:24 <kim> VPC will not be an "addon".
08-03-02 13:43:50 <kim> We are finishing the branding and as I indicated earlier, it will be branded as
08-03-02 13:43:50 <bela> it will be an intergrated part ?
08-03-02 13:44:15 <Rat-Salad> you mean.. it will be included with 1.1?
08-03-02 13:44:44 <kim> "eComStation WorkSpace OS - Platform Neutrality: Today"
08-03-02 13:44:55 <bela> yeah !
08-03-02 13:45:24 <Rat-Salad> how can you bundle a $400 product is my question
08-03-02 13:45:39 <bela> you might consider an update solution for ecs1 users which have also a license of VPC by innotek
08-03-02 13:45:41 <kim> A $400 product?
08-03-02 13:46:04 <Rat-Salad> isn't that what VPC costs.. hmm maybe I'm not thinking right :)
08-03-02 13:47:04 <kim> bela, I am sure that question will come up.
08-03-02 13:47:58 <bela> well - i needed VPC as it came out ... thats why i'm using it right now for over two months ...
08-03-02 13:49:01 <Egon-> 239 for VPC/2
08-03-02 13:50:49 <Rat-Salad> but.. for what your planning to include.. really makes eCS a good value for the $
08-03-02 13:50:57 <kim> The VPC question is a sensitive question and so I can only comment on what we intend to do with the technology.
08-03-02 13:51:47 <JsPr> Kim, sensitive in what way?
08-03-02 13:52:33 <kim> From our perspective, the ability for eCS to solve real life problems is vital to our success.
08-03-02 13:53:16 <kim> We don't look at VPC as an independent product like you would with any other shrink wrap.
08-03-02 13:53:50 <bela> good point
08-03-02 13:54:35 <kim> We want it to be an integral part of the platform.
08-03-02 13:55:51 <bela> just my dream: clicking a *.doc -File under WPS will open Word via its connected VPC-Win-session ...
08-03-02 13:56:21 <bela> well actually i'm not thinking of word - but of Corel Draw ;-)
08-03-02 13:56:25 <kim> We are in the process of writing a white paper detailing what we envision the eCSWOS - eComStation WorkSpace OS can offer.
08-03-02 13:56:34 <Skip> So this is a seperate product from eCS 1.1 and is therefore not obtained by having valid upgrade protection and eCS 1.0. Correct??
08-03-02 13:57:08 <eCSNL> This is correct
08-03-02 13:57:30 <eCSNL> But we never advertised VPC with upgrade protection
08-03-02 13:57:41 <eCSNL> "only " a new SS with new eCS release
08-03-02 13:58:03 <Sector> Hmmm, how smart shall it be¿ Say, opening a PDF 3 file in Acrobat Reader for OS/2 and a PDF 4 file in Acrobat Reader for Linux¿ (not counting GS)...
08-03-02 13:58:28 <kim> Sector and bela, you are still looking at it as just a product.
08-03-02 13:58:43 <MozillaSm> wouldnt it be better just to open all the PDFs in the same version of Acrobat Reader?
08-03-02 13:58:59 <bela> i'm looking at as an solution :-)
08-03-02 13:59:10 <bela> but tell me what you mean
08-03-02 13:59:30 <kim> bela, yes, product that provide a solution. Now, let me continue...
08-03-02 13:59:32 <markus> so this again brings up the question of what is shipped with which version. i think for a ecsWOS some customers might like the hobx-server to display linux apps fully integrated!
08-03-02 14:00:40 <Sector> Nope, bela was looking at it as a product, I was simply proposing a scenario
08-03-02 14:00:45 <kim> We want to address the infrasture issue, the cost of ownership issues, the deployment issues,...
08-03-02 14:01:05 <kim> I know it all sound so "enterprise-ish"...
08-03-02 14:01:20 <Rat-Salad> hoblink is definately very useful.. I can export just about any X app to my OS/2 desktop
08-03-02 14:01:28 <eCSNL> In other words Joe Snow sits at his desk and his computer blows up...
08-03-02 14:01:32 <eCSNL> Tech person walks in
08-03-02 14:01:40 <eCSNL> puts new computer on desk
08-03-02 14:01:42 <eCSNL> walks away
08-03-02 14:01:52 <eCSNL> and a few minites later work resumes...
08-03-02 14:02:14 <kim> but the VPC technology allows us to visit these issues from a completely different angle then past attempts.
08-03-02 14:02:34 <kimre> Is there a way to prevent M$ not to change codes so VPC in future will be able to continue to execute Win programs?
08-03-02 14:03:01 <kim> Kimre: M$ will always try to do that.
08-03-02 14:03:28 <kim> For instance, WSOD managed to address some of these issues very successfully
08-03-02 14:03:32 <eCSuserAB> eCSNL: I understand that's what the WSeB and WSOD combination was supposed to do. Will eCS be that straightforward?
08-03-02 14:03:52 <kim> but as a whole, the industry rejected the approach.
08-03-02 14:04:04 <eCSNL> eCSUserAB
08-03-02 14:04:08 <eCSNL> look at wisemanager
08-03-02 14:04:17 <kim> Why? Because you can't run Windows very successfully under WSOD.
08-03-02 14:04:19 <eCSNL> its diskless but then a lot easier....
08-03-02 14:04:37 <kim> You can run Windows under WSOD but the question then becomes why?
08-03-02 14:04:48 <kim> Why would you bother?
08-03-02 14:05:15 <bela> hmm
08-03-02 14:05:37 <markus> Speaking of deployment and wisemanager. do you also address "robustness" of the software installation. (e.g. at university people _have to_ to fully reinstall all 50 public pcs of the department. 10 pct. of the PCs don't even start! poor people takes a whole week)
08-03-02 14:05:57 <kim> There is no Cost of Ownership saving running under WSOD.
08-03-02 14:06:07 <bela> correct
08-03-02 14:06:19 <kim> Because in other to do it, you will have to run it in a mode that's not supported by M$.
08-03-02 14:06:30 <kim> "other" means "order".
08-03-02 14:06:43 <eCSuserAB> No, WSeB+WSOD was horrendously expensive.
08-03-02 14:06:49 <bela> but this is the old "applications -debate"
08-03-02 14:07:02 <bela> or am i wrong ?
08-03-02 14:07:19 <kim> "horrendously expensive" also because it's ungodly difficult to get WSOD running properly.
08-03-02 14:08:14 <kim> Now, with the VPC technology, a lot of these issues can be addressed.
08-03-02 14:08:51 <kim> For instance, as part of our effort to reduce the dependency on the container files,
08-03-02 14:09:55 <bela> sorry - what does "dependency on the container files" mean ?
08-03-02 14:10:08 <kim> we have developed new technologies for us to support the deployment of operating systems and applications in a more "traditional" fashion..
08-03-02 14:10:26 <kim> Bela: In VPC, your guest OS runs from a container file.
08-03-02 14:10:42 <bela> ok
08-03-02 14:11:09 <kim> That dependency can be reduced but not eliminated.
08-03-02 14:11:31 <kim> Some have told me that it's not an issue but personally I found that to be an issue myself.
08-03-02 14:11:43 <bela> cool - may you tell us about this approach ?
08-03-02 14:11:52 <bela> sound interesting
08-03-02 14:12:15 <kim> Others will tell you that the container design is very robust and they do not have any problem with it.
08-03-02 14:12:44 <kim> Others will tell you that they have reduced the size of that container to a mere 300M and they have never seen it failed.
08-03-02 14:12:57 <kim> For me, I have to disagree.
08-03-02 14:13:17 <bela> well I have a killed container file due to a unclear file-system shutdown ...
08-03-02 14:13:33 <bela> so i also have a backup of this fiel ...
08-03-02 14:13:42 <MozillaSm> it seems much more logical not to use a single file
08-03-02 14:13:55 <bela> and store all documents via shared folders ...
08-03-02 14:14:06 <MozillaSm> because if anything happens to the file, everything is gone
08-03-02 14:14:12 <kim> And I have gigabytes of these containers on CD because I have experienced many failed container operations.
08-03-02 14:14:17 <bela> yes MozillaSM
08-03-02 14:15:01 <kim> Bela, I have situations where I did a clean shutdown and the next time I start up W2K, it won't start up.
08-03-02 14:15:22 <bela> well - you see my aaproach: using a quite small container file with all application installed - using the undo changes function for leaving this installation in a clear state
08-03-02 14:15:35 <bela> having a backup of this one !
08-03-02 14:15:43 <kim> Now, imagine an enterprise having to deploy this to thousands and thousands of desktops.
08-03-02 14:16:05 <bela> and saving all personal documents via shared folders ...
08-03-02 14:16:29 <bela> kim : 'd'ohhh' this can't be a solution for an enterprise ...
08-03-02 14:16:59 <kim> bela, who do you think are buying into this big time?
08-03-02 14:17:02 <MozillaSm> that's better than having all the documents in the container file, at least
08-03-02 14:17:30 <bela> don't know
08-03-02 14:17:37 <MozillaSm> but definately not a viable solution for an enterprise
08-03-02 14:18:05 <bela> yes - MozillaSm
08-03-02 14:18:17 <kim> MozillaSm, with our approach, we are able to reduce the dependency to ......
08-03-02 14:21:28 <JohnM> I'd like to ask Kim about any plans to make JFS bootable
08-03-02 14:21:51 <kim> Okay, container.
08-03-02 14:21:53 <MozillaSm> i think Free JFS is supposed to be made bootable
08-03-02 14:22:20 <kim> We have reduced the container to 7M.
08-03-02 14:22:30 <kim> if you are running eCS as a guest..
08-03-02 14:22:41 <kim> and 16M if you are running W9x as a guest...
08-03-02 14:23:02 <MozillaSm> what about WinXP?
08-03-02 14:23:06 <kim> but not NT and XP.
08-03-02 14:23:22 <MozillaSm> so they are still very large container files?
08-03-02 14:23:26 <bela> cool ! kim 16 mb container for win as gueat ...
08-03-02 14:23:47 <bela> that sounds really interesting
08-03-02 14:23:49 <kim> MozillaSm, no. 99% of that container is now read only.
08-03-02 14:24:19 <MozillaSm> but the customers might want to run a later version of Windows, such as XP professional
08-03-02 14:24:29 <kim> Hold on, MozillaSm...
08-03-02 14:24:55 <bela> kim, does this approach also provide a better disk performance ?
08-03-02 14:25:01 <MozillaSm> but 16M is very good for Win9X
08-03-02 14:25:10 <kim> So, it means that 99% of that 7M can be pre-fabricated.
08-03-02 14:25:12 <bela> as JFS will be able to hold it in its cache ...
08-03-02 14:25:31 <kim> Now, once you booted whatever you want to boot,
08-03-02 14:25:41 <kim> you can in turn run XP and NT and 2K...
08-03-02 14:26:02 <kim> which doesn't want to be booted with the minimal container...
08-03-02 14:26:50 <JohnM> Kim - I was wondering if a bootable JFS is going to be included in a future release of eCS
08-03-02 14:27:06 <kim> In addition, keeping in mind that all Windows are now running in a "Normalized" fashion,
08-03-02 14:27:22 <kim> the saving in Cost Of Ownership is going to be *huge*!
08-03-02 14:27:31 <kim> JohnM: Bootable JFS is undergoing alpha testing.
08-03-02 14:27:40 <bela> sounds really interesting, kim
08-03-02 14:28:04 <MozillaSm> bootable JFS would be a nice addition to eCS
08-03-02 14:28:05 <kim> What's more important to the enterprise is that this "tamed" version of Windows is operating in a fashion that's supportable by M$.
08-03-02 14:28:49 <kim> In my demonstration to SCOUG, I had 2 machines that are completely different,
08-03-02 14:29:04 <kim> one machine running a P4, and the other an Athelon,
08-03-02 14:29:18 <kim> I had a Windows program running some animation,
08-03-02 14:29:44 <kim> then invoke the "save PC state" function to save Windows in the middle of the animation,
08-03-02 14:29:50 <kim> then shut down eCS,
08-03-02 14:29:52 <eCSuserAB> We're having a problem understanding what you mean about "once you booted whatever you want to boot, you can in turn run XP and NT and 2K." What is the thing that gets booted *before* XP or whatever?
08-03-02 14:30:15 <kim> and yank out the hard drive from one machine...
08-03-02 14:30:27 <kim> plugged the hard drive onto the second machine,
08-03-02 14:30:36 <kim> booted, and started VPC again,
08-03-02 14:30:53 <kim> Windows continues to run that simulation program from where it left off,
08-03-02 14:31:04 <kim> didn't even know anything that was going on.
08-03-02 14:32:00 <bela> well - but isn't that "just" an VPC/2 feature ? you are using "save state" ... and the virtualised hardware is always the same
08-03-02 14:32:15 <MozillaSm> yes
08-03-02 14:32:47 <kim> Yes, precisely.
08-03-02 14:33:07 <kim> But right now, people are looking VPC only as a "migration" tool,
08-03-02 14:33:18 <kim> a way to run legacy applications,
08-03-02 14:33:22 <bela> yes, unfortunately
08-03-02 14:33:32 <kim> a way to migrate to other platforms,
08-03-02 14:34:11 <Britt> I don't think it will take long for enterprise to notice that a) it's a 2 way street.....
08-03-02 14:34:26 <Britt> and b) that the OS/2 foundation => stability.....
08-03-02 14:34:31 <kim> But to us, it's an important breakthrough in achiving "platform independcy - Today".
08-03-02 14:34:57 <bela> i agree
08-03-02 14:35:26 <kim> Now, back to the question eCSuserAB asked: What do I mean once you want to boot whatever I want to boot ....
08-03-02 14:35:40 <kim> What do you think my answer would be?
08-03-02 14:36:18 <eCSNL> Oke I just integreated the classes of Chris Wilgemut in the CID installion of MMOS/2
08-03-02 14:36:26 * eCSNL does a prayer for his INI files :)
08-03-02 14:36:46 <bela> cool, ecsNL
08-03-02 14:37:02 <eCSNL> Its running
08-03-02 14:37:03 <eCSuserAB> I suppose you mean eCS. But it soudned as theough you were saying to boot something using VPC . . .
08-03-02 14:37:22 <MozillaSm> where is chris' site?
08-03-02 14:37:23 <eCSuserAB> then run XP or whatever from that "something"
08-03-02 14:37:42 <bela> os2world.com/cdwriting @mozillasm
08-03-02 14:37:49 <kim> eCSUserAB, okay. Now how do I boot the eCS?
08-03-02 14:38:04 <MozillaSm> thank you @bela
08-03-02 14:38:26 <bela> you are welcome
08-03-02 14:38:59 <eCSuserAB> I'm not sure what the answer is: it sounds as though we are running multi-stage emulation.
08-03-02 14:39:02 <eCSNL> rebooting laptop
08-03-02 14:39:16 * eCSNL is keeping a bucket of water handy just in case it catches fire :)
08-03-02 14:39:50 <kim> eCSUserAB, the question should be then, does XP and 2K care?
08-03-02 14:40:10 <kim> It wouldn't know, would it?
08-03-02 14:40:35 <bela> well - i do not see the point
08-03-02 14:40:46 <bela> beeing slow today ;)
08-03-02 14:41:17 <kim> The point is that there are enterprises that are making platform decisions today base on political reasons...
08-03-02 14:41:31 <bela> yes - i know
08-03-02 14:41:35 <eCSuserAB> From your initial statment, it sounded as though it was: eCS -> "something else" -> XP. Is there a "something else" in between? If so, why?
08-03-02 14:42:08 <kim> That something else is necessary because XP and NT doesn't like to be tamed.
08-03-02 14:42:13 <bela> "something else" is the VPC subsystem, correct ? it provieds the VM
08-03-02 14:42:33 <kim> bela: Precisely.
08-03-02 14:42:49 <markus> is it <thunder>, the "freedom board" ??
08-03-02 14:43:01 <eCSNL> oke back to drawning board :)
08-03-02 14:43:07 <eCSuserAB> I mean: eCS -> VPC -> "something else" -> XP
08-03-02 14:43:12 <kim> So, you can remote boot eCS in a WSOD environment, run XP or NT or 2K in a VPC...
08-03-02 14:43:20 <MozillaSm> what happened to the <thunder> "freedom board"?
08-03-02 14:43:53 <kim> You can boot XP or NT or 2K using a fat machine, run eCS in a guest - which runs another VPC ...
08-03-02 14:44:25 <JsPr> a box in a box in a box.. :-)
08-03-02 14:44:37 <bela> if have enough memory ;)
08-03-02 14:45:06 <kimre> kim: how much memory is needed for this?
08-03-02 14:45:08 <kim> Markus, and MozillaSm: There is no technical issue with the freedom board but the company that knows how to do it (Yarc) didn't have the funding needed to push it forward.
08-03-02 14:45:34 <kim> Memory?
08-03-02 14:45:43 <kim> It would be the amount for each OS.
08-03-02 14:45:45 <markus> oh.
08-03-02 14:45:51 <bela> yeah ..
08-03-02 14:46:02 <kim> So, for instance, if you have 1G,
08-03-02 14:46:07 <MozillaSm> so that would mean at least 128MB for each
08-03-02 14:46:24 <bela> so eg: having 128 MB for your eCS + 128 for an VPC session
08-03-02 14:46:37 <bela> *real* memory
08-03-02 14:46:43 <bela> no virtual memory ...
08-03-02 14:46:50 <kim> Yes, *real* memory for each of the guest.
08-03-02 14:47:23 <kim> What we bring to the equation is the "Management" issue.
08-03-02 14:47:55 <eCSuserAB> But memory costs: the last 512MB of PC133 ECC SDRAM I bought cost $50.xx. 512MB of decent memory for a P4 is $300++.
08-03-02 14:48:07 <kim> We are providing the Enterprise (for the first time ever - really) - a Manageable Desktop: completely platform independent.
08-03-02 14:49:04 <Skip> When will ecsWOS be available?
08-03-02 14:49:14 <kim> This is something they wanted IBM to provide them - and IBM came back with Java.
08-03-02 14:49:45 <bela> @eCSuserAB: yes you need memory - actually you can stay with 256MB using a 80MB VPC-Windows session ...
08-03-02 14:50:01 <bela> @kim: :-)
08-03-02 14:50:23 <kim> <my bad>
08-03-02 14:50:46 <kim> When is it available?
08-03-02 14:51:05 <kim> First, we need to find pilots.
08-03-02 14:52:36 <Skip> Kim: Will these pilots need ecs 1.0 or 1.1??
08-03-02 14:52:50 <kim> Due to the sensitivity issues involved, this will be a close pilot available only to consutants that are willing to enter NDA with us.
08-03-02 14:52:52 <eCSuserAB> Hi Jake
08-03-02 14:53:29 <kim> Eventually, everybody will benefit from this.
08-03-02 14:54:54 <kim> Chris, we are talking about "eComStation WorkSpace OS".
08-03-02 14:57:05 <Skip> Kim: SSI has pursued thin client deployment (Micho's work, Wisemanager) up to this point, but ecsWOS sounds like a pretty fat client. Or am I missing something?
08-03-02 14:57:31 <kim> SSI is about "Managed Client" - not "thin client".
08-03-02 14:57:52 <kim> Yes, eCSWOS is a convergence point of all of our past work.
08-03-02 14:57:54 <jake> Just been catching up... ecsnl: ogg vorbis is a bsd style license... we have nothing to fear from that.
08-03-02 14:58:37 <kim> The problem is that industry never brought the WSOD style solution.
08-03-02 14:58:49 <kim> "Thin Client" simply doesn't sell.
08-03-02 14:59:03 <bela> @jake @ecsNL : so OGGVorbis and its integration with the classes from Chris should be no problem ...
08-03-02 14:59:07 <jake> managed client is the key... a laptop is a fat client, and not always on the network. Can make managing it a problem if all your tools are geared to remote booted stations.
08-03-02 14:59:18 <eCSNL> looking into things
08-03-02 15:00:01 <kim> The industry wants the benefit of what the fat client model offers but they don't want the headache associated with these "wonderful monsters" - including the inability to run platform independent applications.
08-03-02 15:00:06 <jake> ecsnl: was just reading the license. All we need to do is to point to the source of the software (chris) and ecs is off the hook. I don't think chris even needs to release his source if he doesn't want to.
08-03-02 15:00:45 <jake> fat clients don't have an inability to do that... the fact that currently they don't is not a feature of a fat client... it's a feature of a particular fat client.
08-03-02 15:00:52 <bela> kim, i agree
08-03-02 15:01:53 <eCSNL> mp3licensing.com
08-03-02 15:02:00 <eCSNL> is looking if ogg vorbis violates there
08-03-02 15:02:03 <eCSNL> patents...
08-03-02 15:02:06 <eCSNL> We incude it
08-03-02 15:02:11 <eCSNL> we could run a risk
08-03-02 15:03:10 <bela> yes, ecsNL those things have to be clear
08-03-02 15:03:29 <kim> The enterprise have enough of a headache on their hand having hundreds and thousands and hundred thousands of these monsters running around, now we are telling them that all of those little angles (stations that runs OS/2) will now be running in Windows, inside a 300M container?
08-03-02 15:03:41 <bela> maybe a lawyer should look inti this ... Ulrich Moeller maybe ?
08-03-02 15:03:51 <kim> angels, not angles.
08-03-02 15:04:16 <bela> yes kim ! they won't buy it
08-03-02 15:04:37 <bela> they will stay with win :-(
08-03-02 15:04:44 <MozillaSm> i think he is probably busy enough with warpin and xwp
08-03-02 15:05:11 <kim> But the "OS/2" issue is becoming such a political hot potato that they will do anything to get away from it.
08-03-02 15:05:58 <bela> correct
08-03-02 15:06:01 <kim> Bela, that's why we must look at eCSWOS as a homerun all around platform solution.
08-03-02 15:06:15 <bela> yes
08-03-02 15:06:44 <jake> ecsnl: Where did you hear that thomson/fraunhofer thought ogg violated their patents?
08-03-02 15:06:53 <bela> @ ecsNL: have you read the following about license rates: mp3 Decoder À US$ 0.75 per unit
08-03-02 15:07:06 <kim> Jake and Rod, can you discuss that via private channel.
08-03-02 15:07:16 <eCSNL> bela
08-03-02 15:07:17 <DSOM_eCS> [VOICENWS] Event: Speakup with Serenity Systems tonight (Sat. August 3rd)
08-03-02 15:07:23 <eCSNL> about patents
08-03-02 15:07:32 <eCSNL> I know a lot already
08-03-02 15:08:00 <bela> @ ecsnl : ok
08-03-02 15:08:27 <DSOM_eCS> There will be a VOICE speakup with Serenity Systems on the WEBBnet IRC network tonight at 8:00pm EDT (00:00 GMT) in the #VOICE channel.
08-03-02 15:08:38 <bela> kim, I see your agumentation
08-03-02 15:08:48 <Skip> Kim: In light of the hefty hardware demand for this and the need for multiple OS liscence to deploy it, please explain the lower cost of ownership.
08-03-02 15:08:50 <bela> I using eCS and VPC for that way
08-03-02 15:09:06 <bela> but:
08-03-02 15:09:22 <kim> Skip, the accqusition part is the least costly of the whole equation.
08-03-02 15:09:42 <bela> enterprises will argue: why use win32 apps inside vpc - when i can run windows with these apps ...
08-03-02 15:10:06 <kim> bela: Because the cost of ownership for Windows is extremely high.
08-03-02 15:10:30 <kim> By running a "normalized" version of Windows, you have reduced that cost of ownership by an order of magnitude.
08-03-02 15:10:44 <bela> everybody knows it - but they are all using it ;)
08-03-02 15:11:05 <kim> Bela: because there hasn't been any other way to do it.
08-03-02 15:11:22 <kim> WSOD 3.0 attempted to addres the issue but enterprise doesn't buy it.
08-03-02 15:11:38 <markus> same applies to novell zen-works :-(
08-03-02 15:11:42 <bela> kim - IMO there has been a way with UNIXstuff - but thats going too far away ;)
08-03-02 15:12:29 <kim> Never in history do we have the necessary hardware and infrasture in place to do what eCSWOS attempts to do.
08-03-02 15:13:21 <bela> that is correct and a chance for it - hardware is fast engough (for VPCstuff) and quite cheap
08-03-02 15:13:50 <kim> Imagine what this means to Intel's sales account rep...
08-03-02 15:14:21 <kim> Imagine what this means to channel partners that's been searching for the reason to upgrade his accounts...
08-03-02 15:14:23 <bela> and to AMD's
08-03-02 15:14:32 <kim> And to Kingston...
08-03-02 15:14:43 <kim> And to IBM global service...'
08-03-02 15:14:52 <eCSNL> I'm very sorry. Its 0:10 here and I was hoping to stay for the next speak up... But I'm VERY tired and can hardly stay awake, so sorry, but I'm shutting down and going to bed...
08-03-02 15:15:16 <bela> kim - may you tell me/us about your experiences wiht VPC and CPUpower ?
08-03-02 15:15:32 <bela> @ecsNL have a good night
08-03-02 15:15:40 <kim> So, we are no longer promoting a product that causes the entire industry to be up in arms against us....
08-03-02 15:15:58 <kim> we are promoting a solution that everybody loves (or should love).
08-03-02 15:16:05 <bela> that is a psychological issue ... good point
08-03-02 15:16:22 <kim> bela, I don't find CPUpower a problem with VPC - it's I/O.
08-03-02 15:16:23 <eCSNL> Kim good night sorry I'm leaving but I need to sleep, good night
08-03-02 15:16:49 <bela> good night
08-03-02 15:17:06 <eCSNL> If anybody has questions in regards to eCS and Mensys
08-03-02 15:17:15 <eCSNL> rwklein@mensys.nl
08-03-02 15:17:26 <WarpedOS2> by kim
08-03-02 15:17:31 <kim> We are testing using IBM/3x5 servers (1.1G/all SCSI) vs my DeskNote (2G/512KCache/IDE), and we are certainly liking running VPC on the IBM hardware.
08-03-02 15:17:53 <eCSuserAB> @ecsnl slaap lekker
08-03-02 15:18:04 <kim> The IBM machines are running P3 and my DeskNote is running P4.
08-03-02 15:18:12 <bela> my Athlon 600 ist too slow (for me) for VPC ...
08-03-02 15:19:20 <kim> MozillaSm, true as that might be but you are looking at a 1.1 vs a 2G CPU.
08-03-02 15:19:53 <kim> I/O. I/O is the issue. I don't think this is a CPU bound task.
08-03-02 15:20:27 <bela> for I/O: will these small container files be a pro ? e.g. for JFS cache ?
08-03-02 15:20:43 <Skip> Kim: So am I correct in thinking that muscular machines with windows installed would be obtained and then have ecsWOS added? Then the installed winxx would be lifted via VPC from disc as the "normalized" workplace.
08-03-02 15:21:20 <kim> Skip, we have sucessfully done that with W9x. No luck with XP/NT yet.
08-03-02 15:21:40 <kim> But preloads means nothing to the enterprise anyway.
08-03-02 15:22:58 <kim> We are actually trying to encourage couple of vendors to have an "optimized for eCSWOS" hardware ready in time for our launch.
08-03-02 15:25:37 <eCSuserAB> Do I have it right, Kim? eCSWSOD is a different product from eCS 1.1? And eCS UP will provide 1.1 but not VPC?
08-03-02 15:26:02 <kim> eCSUserAB: correct.
08-03-02 15:26:32 <kim> But we will certainly have something for eCS user.
08-03-02 15:26:41 <kim> Just can't say exactly what yet.
08-03-02 15:26:43 <Skip> Kim: So hefty hardware is obtained, ecsWOS installed, existing Win?? liscence added via VPC, legacy apps installed to VPC? I am just trying to picture this though the eye of a companies PC support guy.
08-03-02 15:27:31 <kim> Skip, please detail your question a little more...
08-03-02 15:27:39 <Glenn> Kim, the VPC tests were on IBM X220 servers
08-03-02 15:27:43 <eCSuserAB> I meant "eCSWOS"
08-03-02 15:30:44 <MADecsSMP> Kim: I've been away and may have missed it if you already answered this: Any chance we will be able to actually see eCSWOS at Warpstock?
08-03-02 15:32:07 <kim> Mark, might not. There is some sensitivity issue here.
08-03-02 15:32:32 <bela> kim - but for eCS1.1 VPC will be just the "addon" ?
08-03-02 15:32:57 <MozillaSm> how much do you predict that eCSWOS will cost?
08-03-02 15:33:06 <bela> or ecs+VPC= eCSWOS ?
08-03-02 15:33:28 <kim> eCSWOS is *not* eCS+VPC.
08-03-02 15:34:08 <Skip> KIM: If I were to describe this product to the tech people of some company that uses windows I would tell them that ecsWOS is installed on a PC. An existing Win Liscensed cd is then used to install Win?? to that machine by using VPC. Then all legacy apps are installed on that virtual pc. Also, many win liscenses could be deployed with this VPC and their associated apps.
08-03-02 15:34:29 <Skip> Is that about right??
08-03-02 15:35:02 <kim> eCSWOS = eCS (as a base) + VPC (as a technology) + WiseManager (new components added to support what I talked about) + Linux distro and applications + Other unnamed Network Management suites....+
08-03-02 15:36:32 <bela> yes kim - i see - my "ecs+vpc" was too short ;) but my understanding of eCSWOS was that what you described ...
08-03-02 15:39:58 <kim> Skip: In it's very basic form, you start with a 7M distro (like a CD), it would boot up, "lift" the Windows you have on the fat client, insert a very thin eCS into the system, and then when you reboot, you will be running that same Windows (applications and all) in a *normalized* fashion.
08-03-02 15:40:51 <markus> And this is "legal"? how many windows-licenses will i need then?
08-03-02 15:41:26 <kim> To go a step further, you can selectively run either from a server when the link is available or from the local machine when that server link is not available.
08-03-02 15:41:43 <kim> markus: we are not doing anything Windows isn't already doing.
08-03-02 15:42:30 <kim> You are running the same code, using the same hardware, by the same person, employed by the same organization.
08-03-02 15:43:32 <bela> so after rebooting - what will i see ? the wps or directly win ?
08-03-02 15:43:46 <kim> If you want to see Windows, you see Windows.
08-03-02 15:44:19 <bela> but you are running eCS as base and windows via vpc ?
08-03-02 15:44:51 <Skip> So the OS portion is the base OS (very thin, very transparent, very stable) that supports all that Winxx stuff as an application. Is that right?
08-03-02 15:45:22 <markus> ok, i just wanted to remind of this XP eula sentence that forbids any non-licensed "device" to display the windows desktop. ms wants to avoid "10 linux users running windows apps on one machine (=license) remotely. still be careful (see anytime later http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/05/27/020527opwinman.xml)
08-03-02 15:45:37 <kim> Skip, not just Winxx. It can be Linux, and yes, OS/2!!!
08-03-02 15:46:40 <kim> Markus, M$ can just able do anything they want with their EULA. That's why we don't design into the process what they will or will not do.
08-03-02 15:47:10 <bela> kim - sorry - but who would buy such a thing just to run win via ecsKernal
08-03-02 15:47:40 <kim> The idea is now to draw a circle in the sand and ask Windows to sit there, don't move. I will pay you whatever you want to play inside the circle.
08-03-02 15:48:14 <kim> bela, plenty of people. The cost of ownership for Windows - any version is extremely high.
08-03-02 15:48:38 <bela> put the still have to pay for that win-license ...
08-03-02 15:48:47 <bela> sorry - i do not see the point
08-03-02 15:49:06 <kim> One enterprise (with 6 digit numbers of stations) was willing to do anything to get rid of Windows from their desktop.
08-03-02 15:49:32 <bela> you are using an ecs kernal and vpc to provide a abstartion of that real hardware, correct
08-03-02 15:49:44 <bela> to install win, or linux into that vm
08-03-02 15:49:50 <kim> They were even willing to deploy Citrix to *all* of their desktops (in spite of the astronomical cost) if they could only make Citrix work under that environment.
08-03-02 15:50:28 <bela> but you won't use ecs in whole (wps and so on) ?
08-03-02 15:50:47 <kim> Again, you have to keep in mind that accquistion cost is the least of their concern.
08-03-02 15:51:23 <kim> bela: Unfortunately for all of us, very little of the WPS is being used by the enterprise (and the industry as a whole).
08-03-02 15:51:42 <bela> kim - i seem i misunderstand sonething here, sorry -but what will be the base of daily usage in your system ?
08-03-02 15:52:07 <kim> Bela, the "base"?
08-03-02 15:52:42 <bela> base = just a kernal or a "complete OS" ?
08-03-02 15:52:52 <Skip> Kim: What concrete savings can be demonstrated? Support Desk? Continued usefullness of legacy apps? Open source??
08-03-02 15:53:41 <kim> Bela: OS/2 has *always* been scalable. That's the number one reason saving OS/2's skin to this day.
08-03-02 15:53:48 <bela> if you are using just the kernal itself - you acn switch to linux an vmware ...? you do not need OS/2 technoloy at all
08-03-02 15:54:16 <bela> you even can save money as you do not need to spent moeny to IBM ...
08-03-02 15:55:12 <kim> It's so scalable that if in a few years time, IBM can not be convinced to travel a different path, yes, it's conceivable that a replacement kernel, a replacement Windows manager, and, yes, a replacement WPS can be implanted - one module at a time.
08-03-02 15:55:51 <kim> Skip: All of the above. Plus...
08-03-02 15:56:14 <kim> Enterprise can not freely explore what else is out there - without the fear of breaking their legacy Windows applications.
08-03-02 15:57:02 <Skip> Kim: Could winxx apps be icons on the desktop?
08-03-02 16:12:33 <Joachim> If you save the VPC session in a 'save current state to disk' it is rather quick
08-03-02 16:13:11 <Joachim> (i.e. just the time it takes to read the amount of memory used by the VPC session from disk)
08-03-02 16:13:28 <Skip> Joachim: Like a full-screen Win/os2 session say?
08-03-02 16:13:35 <Joachim> no, longer
08-03-02 16:13:50 <Joachim> 128 MB reading from disk takes something like 15 secs or so
08-03-02 16:13:51 <MADecsSMP> So it saves windoze as a memory image?
08-03-02 16:13:55 <Joachim> yes
08-03-02 16:14:02 <Joachim> (optionally)
08-03-02 16:14:31 <Joachim> I think you will all be able to testdrive VPC soon, as Innotek will release a timelimited version (or so they promised me)
08-03-02 16:14:48 <Skip> Can a BPC session be minimized to the desktop?
08-03-02 16:15:03 <Skip> BPC=VPC
08-03-02 16:15:10 <Joachim> yes, i see
08-03-02 16:15:34 <Joachim> but what do you mean with minimize to desktop?
08-03-02 16:17:52 <Skip> I can be running a Win program in a Win/OS2 window and minimize it. It appears as a icon at the bottom of the screen.
08-03-02 16:18:28 <Skip> I can click on it and it reappears where I left off.
08-03-02 16:18:40 <Skip> I use this quite a bit.
08-03-02 16:19:13 <Joachim> ah, okay. Well, yes, it is just another os/2 app to the system. However, it takes up a lot of resources, obviously. So it may not be a desireable way to work