08-03-102 11:09:10 BTW, we are getting close to finalize a brand name for the upcoming eCS/VPC package. 08-03-102 11:09:29 We decided to go with "eComStation WorkSpace OS" 08-03-102 11:10:48 And the slogon will be: Platform neutrality today. 08-03-102 11:11:15 or rather "Platform neutrality - Today" 08-03-102 11:12:05 interesting. 08-03-102 11:20:43 How's 1.1 looking¨ 08-03-102 11:22:15 Joachim can talk about 1.1 this afternoon. 08-03-102 11:22:41 I have the project summary report but they are most involved with it. 08-03-102 11:37:31 Hey... let me tell you about the project I'm working on. 08-03-102 11:42:06 The next version of eComStation will be version 1.1, and should be out by early-mid fall. 08-03-102 11:42:42 i've seen the scrrenshot of the installation-routine .. 08-03-102 11:42:46 It will include some notable user interface enhancements to the desktop, an up to date version of Smartsuite, plus more software than you can shake a stick at in a month of Sundays. 08-03-102 11:42:47 looking good 08-03-102 11:43:11 It will have a greatly improved installer, which should help make the platform accessible to the masses. 08-03-102 11:43:11 btw: i have successfully tested the bootcd-demo-stuff ... 08-03-102 11:44:15 yes - an improved installer is important 08-03-102 11:44:42 Also, with version 1.1, it will be possible to start supporting various NLS (National Language) versions of eComStation... so versions in German, French, and Spanish should be forthcoming reasonably shortly after the English 1.1 release. 08-03-102 11:45:25 good news 08-03-102 11:45:27 so how much is 1.1??? is there an Upgrade price? 08-03-102 11:45:41 NLS versions will help for those markets 08-03-102 11:45:44 Egon: yes... but I don't know how much it will be. I wouldn't think it would be onerous, though. 08-03-102 11:45:57 Egon or included with upgrade protection 08-03-102 11:46:02 NLS will help me a lot... it's hard to sell in Quebec without a French version:) 08-03-102 11:46:26 When can we expect another test drop of the BootCD? 08-03-102 11:46:48 So, um, not to be too direct about it, but when will 1.1 be out? And is there a way to get my hands on a copy very quickly? 08-03-102 11:47:06 We can not promise an exact date. 08-03-102 11:47:13 Egon: if you want to get it as soon as possible, get Upgrade Protection. 08-03-102 11:47:32 I want to put up tutorials on how to install it as soon as possible 08-03-102 11:47:38 It really doesn't help anybody to target an exact date. 08-03-102 11:47:46 As Kim says... no exact date, but I believe that there has been mention of permitting UP subscribers access to the release candidates as they become available. 08-03-102 11:48:16 kim: agreed... better when it's done than pushing something half-baked out the door. 08-03-102 11:48:28 i think we have to wait for warpstock for a more exact date ;-) 08-03-102 11:49:25 In addition, 1.1 development is largely coordinated by Mensys. So, it would be better to ask Joachim this afternoon. 08-03-102 11:50:42 ahh - just a NLS -question : I've seen the BootCD test drop natively supports a codepage of 1004,850 ... will it be possible to install eCS with that settings without having problems with "german umlauts" ? 08-03-102 11:51:23 if I'm not mistaken here.. someone said earlier that upgrade protection customers will get 1.1 at no charge? 08-03-102 11:51:36 Not exactly... UP is the charge. 08-03-102 11:51:39 Kim - what is the response now to getting new updates....does SWC put it out first and then we see it on eCS site or what? 08-03-102 11:51:45 No additional charge would probably be more accurate. 08-03-102 11:51:56 Supposed to be included with Upgrade protection assuming it hasn't expired (which it shouldn't by the release of 1.1) 08-03-102 11:52:00 well yeah.. true.. but you know what I mean 08-03-102 11:52:03 That is true warpedos2 08-03-102 11:52:17 but the time between geting on SWC 08-03-102 11:52:19 and ecs.com 08-03-102 11:52:23 is aonly a couple of days 08-03-102 11:52:35 sometimes only hours... 08-03-102 11:52:45 Ok...my SWC subscription just ran out and I was debating whether to renew it 08-03-102 11:53:20 Warpedos2: one thing to remember... the only difference between SWC and eCS is that eCS 1.0 doesn't include the web browser. 08-03-102 11:53:34 You can continue to get new drivers, patches, and updates... but upgrades are out. 08-03-102 11:53:56 "the web browser" - meaning the IBM brand of the browser. You get Mozilla instead of Warpzilla. 08-03-102 11:53:56 So, tcpip 4.3.2 is part of the base eComStation entitlement.... but the IBM web browser is not. 08-03-102 11:54:09 Yes... IMHO, mozilla is better anyway. 08-03-102 11:54:32 yes indeed - sincs mozilla 1 GA :-) 08-03-102 11:54:43 So I should maintain eCS upgrd protection rather than SWC? 08-03-102 11:54:56 Actually, I'd say significantly better since 0.9.8:) 08-03-102 11:55:07 Yes - but there are companies out there that would rather buy paper from IBM then Office Depot. 08-03-102 11:55:27 WarpedOS2: if you want to get 1.1, try to buy UP before the official release announcement is made. 08-03-102 11:55:28 warpedOS2: imo, yes -btw - i'not affiliated with serentiy or mensys 08-03-102 11:55:50 Whereas I am... so my word is tainted by crass commercial interests:) 08-03-102 11:56:18 interesting to hear: with UP (bought today) i'll get 1.1 for free ? 08-03-102 11:56:35 or just for media shipping costs ...? 08-03-102 11:56:42 bela: at no additional charge... though your distributor may want shipping costs... 08-03-102 11:56:49 er, yeah:) 08-03-102 11:56:51 *no additional charge* - no08-03-102 12:00:23 08-03-102 12:00:33 No, you don't, warpedos2 08-03-102 12:00:39 its all there in the members section of the ecs site 08-03-102 12:00:48 Drivers get posted to the ecomstation.com website. 08-03-102 12:00:50 don't even need upgrade protection for that stuff 08-03-102 12:01:31 currectly only thing in the upgrade protection section is Lotus SS, and IBM Browser 08-03-102 12:01:50 Kim, Roderick: UP = only SmartSuite 1.7 now, right ? and an included 1.1 if bought before announcement, correct ? 08-03-102 12:02:19 SmartSuite 1.7 and the IBM version of Mozilla 08-03-102 12:02:35 Kim, have you had a chance to build a WiseTalker Box with either 1.0 or 1.1 yet if so how stable is it? 08-03-102 12:02:41 when IWB 2.0 will be out? 08-03-102 12:02:55 i'm an IGS employee but everything regarding OS2 is like a mistery at ibm... :( 08-03-102 12:03:12 sev0600: I sold eCS serial number 00000001 and 00000002 to Disney for running WiseTalker. 08-03-102 12:03:36 It's been in the field for 18 months and I haven't heard any problem. 08-03-102 12:04:01 maxwarp: c'mon... os/2 is death for a services oriented organisation... no recurring income fixing the problems that crop up. 08-03-102 12:04:02 disney... world? 08-03-102 12:04:09 DisneyLand. 08-03-102 12:04:16 Nah, kim's in Southern California 08-03-102 12:05:41 kim: what's wisetalker? 08-03-102 12:06:12 jake: i'm an IGS employee i know well this situation... 08-03-102 12:06:29 kim: what's exactly wisetalker? 08-03-102 12:06:43 CTI application generator. 08-03-102 12:10:16 Kim, Roderick: UP = only SmartSuite 1.7 now, right ? and an included 1.1 if bought before announcement, correct ? 08-03-102 12:10:42 and the IBM WB ... 08-03-102 12:10:44 SmartSuite and IBM branded Browser 08-03-102 12:11:15 well both items are uninteresting for me ;) using PAPYRUS here and Mozilla 08-03-102 12:11:53 And fixes to other applications... 08-03-102 12:12:26 How does virtual PC fit with this new version?? 08-03-102 12:12:46 The only thing you get if you are *not* an UP subscriber are device drivers and IBM fixes. 08-03-102 12:12:55 We will talk about VPC in a moment. 08-03-102 12:13:07 that applying fixpaks to eCS should be very very easy 08-03-102 12:13:10 thank you, kim 08-03-102 12:13:16 so that every normal user can do it 08-03-102 12:13:38 MaxWarp: Point taken, let's move on. 08-03-102 12:14:48 Anything else about 1.1? 08-03-102 12:15:43 Hmmm, new features¨ 08-03-102 12:16:53 The main focus for 1.1 has been to complete what we set out to do with 1.0. 08-03-102 12:19:28 eCS 1.1 is *frozen* 08-03-102 12:19:49 from a feature standpoint. 08-03-102 12:19:56 will there be any different version of RealPlayer in eCS 1.1 ? 08-03-102 12:20:14 I never managed to run the version from 1.0 ... 08-03-102 12:22:14 With the design of the 1.1 installer, I think it's feasible to have a replacement CD delivered to those people that couldn't install eCS 1.0 (for an handling charge) but it will be based on MCP #1 - not MCP #2. 08-03-102 12:22:51 The thing to do is to get involve with the beta testing process so we can determine whether the process will be worth your time. 08-03-102 12:23:42 sorry - probably it was misleading - i mean the RealPlayer of eCS1 ... (installation of ECS went fine! for me) 08-03-102 12:24:09 Oh, the RealPlayer. 08-03-102 12:24:23 yes :-) 08-03-102 12:24:41 i never managed to run this app 08-03-102 12:24:48 The real player has to be installed *exactly* as what the instruction says. A slight deviation would render it unusable. 08-03-102 12:25:11 Common issue would be using a wrong version of ODIN. 08-03-102 12:25:19 I did what the instruction said ... 08-03-102 12:25:30 I used the version you shipped ... 08-03-102 12:25:50 Um... not to put too fine a point on it... but I don't know that this is a support forum. 08-03-102 12:26:03 Then it would work. Post a message at the news.ecomstation.nl (application) 08-03-102 12:26:10 bela what was your probelsm? 08-03-102 12:26:13 bela: why don't you post to ecomstation.apps.misc at news.ecomstation.nl? 08-03-102 12:26:18 I'snt there a chance to make a ZIP of a correct configured Realplayer ? 08-03-102 12:26:30 Let's go back to the topic on hand. 08-03-102 12:26:46 bela nope, as it also contains heaps of registry entries 08-03-102 12:26:51 jake, probalby i'll do so 08-03-102 12:27:05 hugh, i see ... 08-03-102 12:27:18 bela: you'll probably get more substantive help there anyway... more people, and not time dependent. 08-03-102 12:27:27 kim, i think this is an issue 08-03-102 12:27:59 The #1 problem we have to resolve is the dreadful "Unable to operate your hard drive" 08-03-102 12:27:59 There are a lot of issues... we can only take them on as we have the resources to do so. 08-03-102 12:28:09 kim: I 100% agree... let's walk before we run. 08-03-102 12:28:32 This issue has been the show stopper for the demo CD. 08-03-102 12:29:18 kim: Has the memdisk utility helped in that at all? 08-03-102 12:29:38 1.1 is using a method from Veit Kanniesieser call memdisk that shows some promise of resolving this issue. 08-03-102 12:29:47 I did have some problems with getting the IDE drivers to work properly with this new KT266A motherboard 08-03-102 12:30:12 It's imperative for all those that experience boot problems with the eCS 1.0 CD to participate in the testing process. 08-03-102 12:30:59 kim: I was under the impression that this message was always because of a drive letter shift at boot time... 08-03-102 12:31:20 Jake, that's a bottom catcher message. 08-03-102 12:31:50 kim: I think that's why the os2 mcp boots always run vcu at boot time... to make sure that the drive letters get cast in stone BEFORE the rest of the config.sys gets processed... 08-03-102 12:31:54 *Anything* that goes wrong during the boot process will result in that message. 08-03-102 12:32:30 kim: not true... not anything. Only anything dasd related... unless you know of a different reason. 08-03-102 12:32:46 Not necessarily. 08-03-102 12:32:53 It can be CD related as well. 08-03-102 12:33:11 CD is dasd related, Kim. 08-03-102 12:33:20 We would turn OS2DASD.DMD off, turn CDFS off, and still see the message. 08-03-102 12:34:10 kim: get out... no dasd and you would get that message? Which module generates it? 08-03-102 12:34:19 kernel 08-03-102 12:34:31 The Alt-F1, S option when booted from CD doesn't load any of the DASD drivers and filters. It runs purely on boot floppy images - and you can still see it. 08-03-102 12:34:47 Final error when the kernel can't get a file? 08-03-102 12:36:23 When you boot using the Alt-F1, S option, and turn off OS2DASD from the pre-boot screen, you are running purely from the 2.88 boot floppy image. Yet, we have seen cases where even that would fail to get you to the command line. 08-03-102 12:36:55 Wow... kim, what do you need to unpack the boot image? 08-03-102 12:37:15 Jake: Don't understand your message. 08-03-102 12:37:59 I didn't realise that the boot image (boot.bin) would pass that message. I never get it here... so what's the right tool to unpack boot.bin so I can take a look? 08-03-102 12:38:34 Maybe something'll strike me and I can lend a hand to fixing it... 08-03-102 12:38:38 So, as I was saying, the #1 enermy on my "to do list" is the dreadful "Unable to operate your ..." message. 08-03-102 12:39:02 There are now 2 options to try to address this problem... 08-03-102 12:39:25 Option #1: Veit Kannegieser's memboot method. 08-03-102 12:39:38 Option #2: Daniella's DANIBOOT.FLT method. 08-03-102 12:40:21 Veit's method uses a ramdisk to boot and is the one currently in use for the 1.1 test track... 08-03-102 12:40:54 So, if you want to help, join the beta testing process. 08-03-102 12:41:05 kim: and probably the only one which could make to work in non emulation mode 08-03-102 12:42:01 Daniela's method continues to use the emulation mode but the "switch-over" from diskette #1 to diskette #2 is her code.... 08-03-102 12:42:29 It would be interesting to see if this would help in some cases... 08-03-102 12:43:03 What we need is somebody to head a testing team to try out Daniela's method since most of the boot team is focusing on Veit's method. 08-03-102 12:44:06 The fustrating part is that for the machine I am seeing the failure, I can stick a W98 boot CD in it and it would boot W98 fine! 08-03-102 12:44:37 This is a machine with DVD-CD/RW and W98 certainly doesn't know anything about this hardware. 08-03-102 12:44:43 kim: which machine? 08-03-102 12:44:50 The DeskNote machine I am typing on. 08-03-102 12:44:56 Windows doesn't use emulation mode... 08-03-102 12:45:11 They use DOS mode, I think. 08-03-102 12:45:25 They stick to BIOS calls only? 08-03-102 12:45:53 If so... lotta to-the-metal programming there... a LOT. 08-03-102 12:46:16 Unless we resolve this, there is no sense releasing the demoCD because it will fail in a unknown percentage of the hardware out there. 08-03-102 12:47:59 kim: If you want to test that, I can try... but I have no hardware that does this, so it's hard to see that I'm the right person. 08-03-102 12:48:13 Jake, try any of the Sony machines. 08-03-102 12:48:16 * jake checks carefully for warp compatibility before laying out the hard earned dollar. 08-03-102 12:49:08 Just take the bootable CD and go to your nearnest computer store. 08-03-102 12:49:31 We can't continue to do that. eCS must be bootable from any store brought systems. 08-03-102 12:49:39 That's a long way away from where I live now... but I'll burn the test track again and see what I can come up with. 08-03-102 12:49:45 Linux uses emulation mode...I wonder if there is a large source of information related to this issue in the Linux community? 08-03-102 12:49:50 Mebbe in a week or two. 08-03-102 12:50:04 There probably is, I would think... 08-03-102 12:50:21 Ok, gotta go. Ease! Enjoy your eCS boxen! 08-03-102 12:50:33 Veit and Daniela feels that they know the issue. Just need everybody to find these problem hardware... 08-03-102 12:50:47 and help with the testing. 08-03-102 12:52:38 What else we want to talk about? 08-03-102 12:53:57 Will you be able to include OpenWatcom in v1.1? 08-03-102 12:54:20 Most likely yes 08-03-102 12:54:35 We talked about this last week - in our first *all Serenity* person to person meeting ( :=) ) 08-03-102 12:55:04 We need to define what the purpose of eCS is. 08-03-102 12:55:25 I don't want to just throw in everything and make that a "package". 08-03-102 12:55:53 We still favor putting together a developer CD with the appropriate contents. 08-03-102 12:56:18 I'm working on some of the openwatcom stuff... hopefully we'll see some real results real soon now. 08-03-102 12:56:52 The compile using only the binary release and the toolkit that ships with ecs is progressing a lot further now, but isn't completing properly quite yet. 08-03-102 12:57:25 At any rate... openwatcom is making huge strides for the new openwatcom user on the platform. 08-03-102 12:57:59 Give it a little more time, and I hope to be able to build a really solid dev CD for people to use. 08-03-102 12:58:31 Jake, we are conducting a survey of an enterprise customer and see what their needs are.. 08-03-102 13:01:04 Things that appears to be top on their list of needs are compiler and editor. 08-03-102 13:01:23 Seems like they really want SlickEdit bad. 08-03-102 13:02:07 and since OpenWatcom is the only C/C++ compiler with any life in it would appear to be important... 08-03-102 13:02:47 Yes, OpenWatcom is important but we want to go further... 08-03-102 13:03:04 We want to port the IBM OpenClass library over and make it available. 08-03-102 13:03:24 We want to include a world class programmer's editor... 08-03-102 13:03:44 why IBM OCL ? 08-03-102 13:04:02 Because that's the one being use by the enterprise.. 08-03-102 13:04:10 the lack of Trolltech's QT is a great hole for OS/2 08-03-102 13:04:33 a good editor is badly needed...what are you thinking about? 08-03-102 13:04:55 bela, what's QT? 08-03-102 13:05:01 ehh there is QT in some sense.. after all there is a port of KDE 08-03-102 13:05:11 Nick, they favor SlickEdit. 08-03-102 13:05:25 QT is used by KDE 08-03-102 13:05:31 it ist ported to win and Mac ... 08-03-102 13:05:50 done by trolltech.no 08-03-102 13:06:26 theres a QT port for XFree86 OS/2 anyway 08-03-102 13:06:27 it's an important gui-libary - as its easy to make platform independent development 08-03-102 13:07:08 there's GTK+ as well 08-03-102 13:07:23 but who will use xfree ? 08-03-102 13:07:53 if I have to use xfree to run my app - i can switch to e.g. linux ... 08-03-102 13:08:21 i think kim is speaking of real native app-development 08-03-102 13:08:30 ohh.. i feel the same way.. I have been using HobLink X11 for such apps 08-03-102 13:08:57 Rat-Salad, why not run Linux in VPC? 08-03-102 13:08:58 if enterprises still use IBM OCL its ok 08-03-102 13:09:19 The IBM OCL is actually quite good. 08-03-102 13:09:19 but i do not think it will attaract new developer for eCS ... 08-03-102 13:09:25 in order for there to be QT, GTK+, etc.. Xlib has to be present 08-03-102 13:10:13 most developer which are not using Ms C++ are using multiplatform stuff like QT 08-03-102 13:10:29 bela: If people can come to an agreement what other gui-library to support, we would want to support that as well. 08-03-102 13:10:32 its a project.. which I think is the point of the EverBlue project (http://everblue.netlabs.org) which I haven't heard much about in a long time now 08-03-102 13:11:03 QT has two licenses -> a free one for non commercial projects, and an commercial by trolltech.no 08-03-102 13:11:12 But it seems there are multiple options there. (I am hearing QT for the first time). 08-03-102 13:11:33 kim - probably you should have a look an trolltech ... 08-03-102 13:11:43 bela: noted. 08-03-102 13:11:47 QT is used widley out there :-) 08-03-102 13:12:23 Ok, back to eCS. 08-03-102 13:12:42 personally I think I would have to favor having GTK+ on OS/2 first.. to have a good graphics app on the OS/2 desktop natively (The GIMP) 08-03-102 13:13:05 As I was saying, I wouldn't expect anything "earth shaking" between 1.1 and 1.0. 08-03-102 13:13:49 both QT, and GTK+ are widely used widget sets 08-03-102 13:13:54 The main thing is continue to be the installation process and the look and feel area. 08-03-102 13:14:19 MCP 2 and SS 1.7, plus various fixes and new device drivers integrated... 08-03-102 13:14:28 better NLS support... 08-03-102 13:14:43 Well multimedia is getting a lift where possble... 08-03-102 13:15:05 I have a question 08-03-102 13:15:15 Yes, Rod has spent a fair amount of time on that department... 08-03-102 13:15:30 Chris Wolgemuth has released new MM classes for OS/2.. 08-03-102 13:15:40 cool stuff ! 08-03-102 13:15:44 I'm on the point of making a modified install of MMOS/2 that uses 08-03-102 13:15:53 his classes by default! 08-03-102 13:16:10 good idea ! nice to hear 08-03-102 13:16:18 AT this very moment we almost have a good and, well basicly "supported" 08-03-102 13:16:28 way of removing MMOS/2 cleaning of a system 08-03-102 13:16:36 remove all classes 08-03-102 13:16:38 I've seen some reports of those classes destrying a few folks WPS. 08-03-102 13:16:52 *the multimedia folder 08-03-102 13:16:59 *cleaning up the config.sys 08-03-102 13:17:09 *cleaning up the MMOS/2 directory 08-03-102 13:17:24 By default now an MJPEG Codec will installed, IBM's video play back stuff 08-03-102 13:17:31 ,AVI codecs of mainconcept 08-03-102 13:17:40 and Openmpeg 1 from IBM 08-03-102 13:17:54 and at Divx support there is BEING *LOOKED* 08-03-102 13:17:56 AVI... that includes DIVX? 08-03-102 13:18:02 Nope 08-03-102 13:18:12 AVI RAt Salad is a collection name 08-03-102 13:18:17 of many video formats 08-03-102 13:18:24 its not one file format 08-03-102 13:18:31 yep.. thats the reason I asked that 08-03-102 13:18:41 The problem for eCS is patents 08-03-102 13:18:50 is there a chance to deselect some of these items (eg. i prefere warpvision instead openmgeg) ... ? 08-03-102 13:19:00 spreading MP 3 players and Divx players via internet looks harmless 08-03-102 13:19:08 as far as I can tell 08-03-102 13:19:10 HOWEVER 08-03-102 13:19:23 People who want to see warpvision in there 08-03-102 13:19:29 the problem is patents 08-03-102 13:19:38 Divx has patents in multimedia 08-03-102 13:19:51 multimedia=file format 08-03-102 13:20:05 so.. it has to remain third party.. 08-03-102 13:20:15 Same thing goes for Fraunhoffer and Thomson when it comes to MP3 08-03-102 13:20:16 NO 08-03-102 13:20:36 but you can include OGG 08-03-102 13:20:36 Third party or open source and all does other buzz words are worthless (sadly :) ) 08-03-102 13:20:57 Well Bela even that is doubtfull 08-03-102 13:21:09 You need to understand that we are selling a commercial OS 08-03-102 13:21:17 d'ohh 08-03-102 13:21:23 i see want you man 08-03-102 13:21:29 man= mean 08-03-102 13:21:31 by third party, I meant not included with the OS 08-03-102 13:22:28 we are much easier to get 08-03-102 13:22:28 we have adress website etc... 08-03-102 13:22:28 Open source developers are worldwide 08-03-102 13:22:28 People come and leave projects 08-03-102 13:22:28 and projects are mobile and mirrored at websites.... 08-03-102 13:22:28 Not easy to capture and not worthwhile 08-03-102 13:24:40 Oke thats multimedia and patents... 08-03-102 13:24:45 what about putting all this stuff on a extra CD (with a second installation routine after the OS) ... so you can say "this is for free" we only take some money for making this CD 08-03-102 13:24:45 the same thing redhat and suse dos with linux stuff 08-03-102 13:24:49 Okay, Rod, understood. Let's move on. 08-03-102 13:25:44 Oke but I do have some other interesting news that could directly effect your multimedia experience... It looks like in a quite stable form we can release soundblaster emulation for in DOS sessions 08-03-102 13:25:52 this will work indipended of your soundcard 08-03-102 13:26:21 That would be good 08-03-102 13:28:46 in the same way as the generic WIN/OS2 sound driver which can be found on home.wanadoo.nl/rwklein 08-03-102 13:28:47 VDMA stuff...? 08-03-102 13:28:47 VCOMPACT,VSOUND ... 08-03-102 13:28:47 right ? 08-03-102 13:28:47 So if you have a PCI card and want to play your DOS games it should work... 08-03-102 13:28:47 There is also being worked an a USB webcam driver 08-03-102 13:28:47 and a new sound interface for eCS which will be beter and can work BESIDES MMOS/2 with breaking things... 08-03-102 13:28:47 with=without 08-03-102 13:28:48 well vdma.sys yes that has to do with it :) 08-03-102 13:28:56 "indipended" meaning "independent", I assume. 08-03-102 13:29:04 yes 08-03-102 13:31:45 Any more questions on 1.1? 08-03-102 13:32:39 Requested ? 08-03-102 13:32:44 yes - 08-03-102 13:32:44 Idea's for 1.1 08-03-102 13:32:57 Well talk everything we love to hear from you :) 08-03-102 13:33:04 xworkplace will be shipped with 1.1 08-03-102 13:33:34 Rod: Reminder that feature set for 1.1 is *frozen*. 08-03-102 13:33:35 yes 08-03-102 13:33:51 Well Kim a enhancement 08-03-102 13:33:55 config.sys setting 08-03-102 13:34:07 I like your plan.. focus on what the users need.. wabt 08-03-102 13:34:13 wants come later 08-03-102 13:34:23 We can talk about future wants later. :=) 08-03-102 13:34:40 Kim - Any info about virtualpc and 1.1?? 08-03-102 13:36:05 The InJoy dialer has served eCS well. 08-03-102 13:43:13 Kim - what's about 1.1 and VPC as addon ? 08-03-102 13:43:24 VPC will not be an "addon". 08-03-102 13:43:50 We are finishing the branding and as I indicated earlier, it will be branded as 08-03-102 13:43:50 it will be an intergrated part ? 08-03-102 13:44:15 you mean.. it will be included with 1.1? 08-03-102 13:44:44 "eComStation WorkSpace OS - Platform Neutrality: Today" 08-03-102 13:44:55 yeah ! 08-03-102 13:45:24 how can you bundle a $400 product is my question 08-03-102 13:45:39 you might consider an update solution for ecs1 users which have also a license of VPC by innotek 08-03-102 13:45:41 A $400 product? 08-03-102 13:46:04 isn't that what VPC costs.. hmm maybe I'm not thinking right :) 08-03-102 13:47:04 bela, I am sure that question will come up. 08-03-102 13:47:58 well - i needed VPC as it came out ... thats why i'm using it right now for over two months ... 08-03-102 13:49:01 239 for VPC/2 08-03-102 13:50:49 but.. for what your planning to include.. really makes eCS a good value for the $ 08-03-102 13:50:57 The VPC question is a sensitive question and so I can only comment on what we intend to do with the technology. 08-03-102 13:51:47 Kim, sensitive in what way? 08-03-102 13:52:33 From our perspective, the ability for eCS to solve real life problems is vital to our success. 08-03-102 13:53:16 We don't look at VPC as an independent product like you would with any other shrink wrap. 08-03-102 13:53:50 good point 08-03-102 13:54:35 We want it to be an integral part of the platform. 08-03-102 13:55:51 just my dream: clicking a *.doc -File under WPS will open Word via its connected VPC-Win-session ... 08-03-102 13:56:21 well actually i'm not thinking of word - but of Corel Draw ;-) 08-03-102 13:56:25 We are in the process of writing a white paper detailing what we envision the eCSWOS - eComStation WorkSpace OS can offer. 08-03-102 13:56:34 So this is a seperate product from eCS 1.1 and is therefore not obtained by having valid upgrade protection and eCS 1.0. Correct?? 08-03-102 13:57:08 This is correct 08-03-102 13:57:30 But we never advertised VPC with upgrade protection 08-03-102 13:57:41 "only " a new SS with new eCS release 08-03-102 13:58:03 Hmmm, how smart shall it be¨ Say, opening a PDF 3 file in Acrobat Reader for OS/2 and a PDF 4 file in Acrobat Reader for Linux¨ (not counting GS)... 08-03-102 13:58:28 Sector and bela, you are still looking at it as just a product. 08-03-102 13:58:43 wouldnt it be better just to open all the PDFs in the same version of Acrobat Reader? 08-03-102 13:58:59 i'm looking at as an solution :-) 08-03-102 13:59:10 but tell me what you mean 08-03-102 13:59:30 bela, yes, product that provide a solution. Now, let me continue... 08-03-102 13:59:32 so this again brings up the question of what is shipped with which version. i think for a ecsWOS some customers might like the hobx-server to display linux apps fully integrated! 08-03-102 14:00:40 Nope, bela was looking at it as a product, I was simply proposing a scenario 08-03-102 14:00:45 We want to address the infrasture issue, the cost of ownership issues, the deployment issues,... 08-03-102 14:01:05 I know it all sound so "enterprise-ish"... 08-03-102 14:01:20 hoblink is definately very useful.. I can export just about any X app to my OS/2 desktop 08-03-102 14:01:28 In other words Joe Snow sits at his desk and his computer blows up... 08-03-102 14:01:32 Tech person walks in 08-03-102 14:01:40 puts new computer on desk 08-03-102 14:01:42 walks away 08-03-102 14:01:52 and a few minites later work resumes... 08-03-102 14:02:14 but the VPC technology allows us to visit these issues from a completely different angle then past attempts. 08-03-102 14:02:34 Is there a way to prevent M$ not to change codes so VPC in future will be able to continue to execute Win programs? 08-03-102 14:03:01 Kimre: M$ will always try to do that. 08-03-102 14:03:28 For instance, WSOD managed to address some of these issues very successfully 08-03-102 14:03:32 eCSNL: I understand that's what the WSeB and WSOD combination was supposed to do. Will eCS be that straightforward? 08-03-102 14:03:52 but as a whole, the industry rejected the approach. 08-03-102 14:04:04 eCSUserAB 08-03-102 14:04:08 look at wisemanager 08-03-102 14:04:17 Why? Because you can't run Windows very successfully under WSOD. 08-03-102 14:04:19 its diskless but then a lot easier.... 08-03-102 14:04:37 You can run Windows under WSOD but the question then becomes why? 08-03-102 14:04:48 Why would you bother? 08-03-102 14:05:15 hmm 08-03-102 14:05:37 Speaking of deployment and wisemanager. do you also address "robustness" of the software installation. (e.g. at university people _have to_ to fully reinstall all 50 public pcs of the department. 10 pct. of the PCs don't even start! poor people takes a whole week) 08-03-102 14:05:57 There is no Cost of Ownership saving running under WSOD. 08-03-102 14:06:07 correct 08-03-102 14:06:19 Because in other to do it, you will have to run it in a mode that's not supported by M$. 08-03-102 14:06:30 "other" means "order". 08-03-102 14:06:43 No, WSeB+WSOD was horrendously expensive. 08-03-102 14:06:49 but this is the old "applications -debate" 08-03-102 14:07:02 or am i wrong ? 08-03-102 14:07:19 "horrendously expensive" also because it's ungodly difficult to get WSOD running properly. 08-03-102 14:08:14 Now, with the VPC technology, a lot of these issues can be addressed. 08-03-102 14:08:51 For instance, as part of our effort to reduce the dependency on the container files, 08-03-102 14:09:55 sorry - what does "dependency on the container files" mean ? 08-03-102 14:10:08 we have developed new technologies for us to support the deployment of operating systems and applications in a more "traditional" fashion.. 08-03-102 14:10:26 Bela: In VPC, your guest OS runs from a container file. 08-03-102 14:10:42 ok 08-03-102 14:11:09 That dependency can be reduced but not eliminated. 08-03-102 14:11:31 Some have told me that it's not an issue but personally I found that to be an issue myself. 08-03-102 14:11:43 cool - may you tell us about this approach ? 08-03-102 14:11:52 sound interesting 08-03-102 14:12:15 Others will tell you that the container design is very robust and they do not have any problem with it. 08-03-102 14:12:44 Others will tell you that they have reduced the size of that container to a mere 300M and they have never seen it failed. 08-03-102 14:12:57 For me, I have to disagree. 08-03-102 14:13:17 well I have a killed container file due to a unclear file-system shutdown ... 08-03-102 14:13:33 so i also have a backup of this fiel ... 08-03-102 14:13:42 it seems much more logical not to use a single file 08-03-102 14:13:55 and store all documents via shared folders ... 08-03-102 14:14:06 because if anything happens to the file, everything is gone 08-03-102 14:14:12 And I have gigabytes of these containers on CD because I have experienced many failed container operations. 08-03-102 14:14:17 yes MozillaSM 08-03-102 14:15:01 Bela, I have situations where I did a clean shutdown and the next time I start up W2K, it won't start up. 08-03-102 14:15:22 well - you see my aaproach: using a quite small container file with all application installed - using the undo changes function for leaving this installation in a clear state 08-03-102 14:15:35 having a backup of this one ! 08-03-102 14:15:43 Now, imagine an enterprise having to deploy this to thousands and thousands of desktops. 08-03-102 14:16:05 and saving all personal documents via shared folders ... 08-03-102 14:16:29 kim : 'd'ohhh' this can't be a solution for an enterprise ... 08-03-102 14:16:59 bela, who do you think are buying into this big time? 08-03-102 14:17:02 that's better than having all the documents in the container file, at least 08-03-102 14:17:30 don't know 08-03-102 14:17:37 but definately not a viable solution for an enterprise 08-03-102 14:18:05 yes - MozillaSm 08-03-102 14:18:17 MozillaSm, with our approach, we are able to reduce the dependency to ...... 08-03-102 14:21:28 I'd like to ask Kim about any plans to make JFS bootable 08-03-102 14:21:51 Okay, container. 08-03-102 14:21:53 i think Free JFS is supposed to be made bootable 08-03-102 14:22:20 We have reduced the container to 7M. 08-03-102 14:22:30 if you are running eCS as a guest.. 08-03-102 14:22:41 and 16M if you are running W9x as a guest... 08-03-102 14:23:02 what about WinXP? 08-03-102 14:23:06 but not NT and XP. 08-03-102 14:23:22 so they are still very large container files? 08-03-102 14:23:26 cool ! kim 16 mb container for win as gueat ... 08-03-102 14:23:47 that sounds really interesting 08-03-102 14:23:49 MozillaSm, no. 99% of that container is now read only. 08-03-102 14:24:19 but the customers might want to run a later version of Windows, such as XP professional 08-03-102 14:24:29 Hold on, MozillaSm... 08-03-102 14:24:55 kim, does this approach also provide a better disk performance ? 08-03-102 14:25:01 but 16M is very good for Win9X 08-03-102 14:25:10 So, it means that 99% of that 7M can be pre-fabricated. 08-03-102 14:25:12 as JFS will be able to hold it in its cache ... 08-03-102 14:25:31 Now, once you booted whatever you want to boot, 08-03-102 14:25:41 you can in turn run XP and NT and 2K... 08-03-102 14:26:02 which doesn't want to be booted with the minimal container... 08-03-102 14:26:50 Kim - I was wondering if a bootable JFS is going to be included in a future release of eCS 08-03-102 14:27:06 In addition, keeping in mind that all Windows are now running in a "Normalized" fashion, 08-03-102 14:27:22 the saving in Cost Of Ownership is going to be *huge*! 08-03-102 14:27:31 JohnM: Bootable JFS is undergoing alpha testing. 08-03-102 14:27:40 sounds really interesting, kim 08-03-102 14:28:04 bootable JFS would be a nice addition to eCS 08-03-102 14:28:05 What's more important to the enterprise is that this "tamed" version of Windows is operating in a fashion that's supportable by M$. 08-03-102 14:28:49 In my demonstration to SCOUG, I had 2 machines that are completely different, 08-03-102 14:29:04 one machine running a P4, and the other an Athelon, 08-03-102 14:29:18 I had a Windows program running some animation, 08-03-102 14:29:44 then invoke the "save PC state" function to save Windows in the middle of the animation, 08-03-102 14:29:50 then shut down eCS, 08-03-102 14:29:52 We're having a problem understanding what you mean about "once you booted whatever you want to boot, you can in turn run XP and NT and 2K." What is the thing that gets booted *before* XP or whatever? 08-03-102 14:30:15 and yank out the hard drive from one machine... 08-03-102 14:30:27 plugged the hard drive onto the second machine, 08-03-102 14:30:36 booted, and started VPC again, 08-03-102 14:30:53 Windows continues to run that simulation program from where it left off, 08-03-102 14:31:04 didn't even know anything that was going on. 08-03-102 14:32:00 well - but isn't that "just" an VPC/2 feature ? you are using "save state" ... and the virtualised hardware is always the same 08-03-102 14:32:15 yes 08-03-102 14:32:47 Yes, precisely. 08-03-102 14:33:07 But right now, people are looking VPC only as a "migration" tool, 08-03-102 14:33:18 a way to run legacy applications, 08-03-102 14:33:22 yes, unfortunately 08-03-102 14:33:32 a way to migrate to other platforms, 08-03-102 14:34:11 I don't think it will take long for enterprise to notice that a) it's a 2 way street..... 08-03-102 14:34:26 and b) that the OS/2 foundation => stability..... 08-03-102 14:34:31 But to us, it's an important breakthrough in achiving "platform independcy - Today". 08-03-102 14:34:57 i agree 08-03-102 14:35:26 Now, back to the question eCSuserAB asked: What do I mean once you want to boot whatever I want to boot .... 08-03-102 14:35:40 What do you think my answer would be? 08-03-102 14:36:18 Oke I just integreated the classes of Chris Wilgemut in the CID installion of MMOS/2 08-03-102 14:36:26 * eCSNL does a prayer for his INI files :) 08-03-102 14:36:46 cool, ecsNL 08-03-102 14:37:02 Its running 08-03-102 14:37:03 I suppose you mean eCS. But it soudned as theough you were saying to boot something using VPC . . . 08-03-102 14:37:22 where is chris' site? 08-03-102 14:37:23 then run XP or whatever from that "something" 08-03-102 14:37:42 os2world.com/cdwriting @mozillasm 08-03-102 14:37:49 eCSUserAB, okay. Now how do I boot the eCS? 08-03-102 14:38:04 thank you @bela 08-03-102 14:38:26 you are welcome 08-03-102 14:38:59 I'm not sure what the answer is: it sounds as though we are running multi-stage emulation. 08-03-102 14:39:02 rebooting laptop 08-03-102 14:39:16 * eCSNL is keeping a bucket of water handy just in case it catches fire :) 08-03-102 14:39:50 eCSUserAB, the question should be then, does XP and 2K care? 08-03-102 14:40:10 It wouldn't know, would it? 08-03-102 14:40:35 well - i do not see the point 08-03-102 14:40:46 beeing slow today ;) 08-03-102 14:41:17 The point is that there are enterprises that are making platform decisions today base on political reasons... 08-03-102 14:41:31 yes - i know 08-03-102 14:41:35 From your initial statment, it sounded as though it was: eCS -> "something else" -> XP. Is there a "something else" in between? If so, why? 08-03-102 14:42:08 That something else is necessary because XP and NT doesn't like to be tamed. 08-03-102 14:42:13 "something else" is the VPC subsystem, correct ? it provieds the VM 08-03-102 14:42:33 bela: Precisely. 08-03-102 14:42:49 is it , the "freedom board" ?? 08-03-102 14:43:01 oke back to drawning board :) 08-03-102 14:43:07 I mean: eCS -> VPC -> "something else" -> XP 08-03-102 14:43:12 So, you can remote boot eCS in a WSOD environment, run XP or NT or 2K in a VPC... 08-03-102 14:43:20 what happened to the "freedom board"? 08-03-102 14:43:53 You can boot XP or NT or 2K using a fat machine, run eCS in a guest - which runs another VPC ... 08-03-102 14:44:25 a box in a box in a box.. :-) 08-03-102 14:44:37 if have enough memory ;) 08-03-102 14:45:06 kim: how much memory is needed for this? 08-03-102 14:45:08 Markus, and MozillaSm: There is no technical issue with the freedom board but the company that knows how to do it (Yarc) didn't have the funding needed to push it forward. 08-03-102 14:45:34 Memory? 08-03-102 14:45:43 It would be the amount for each OS. 08-03-102 14:45:45 oh. 08-03-102 14:45:51 yeah .. 08-03-102 14:46:02 So, for instance, if you have 1G, 08-03-102 14:46:07 so that would mean at least 128MB for each 08-03-102 14:46:24 so eg: having 128 MB for your eCS + 128 for an VPC session 08-03-102 14:46:37 *real* memory 08-03-102 14:46:43 no virtual memory ... 08-03-102 14:46:50 Yes, *real* memory for each of the guest. 08-03-102 14:47:23 What we bring to the equation is the "Management" issue. 08-03-102 14:47:55 But memory costs: the last 512MB of PC133 ECC SDRAM I bought cost $50.xx. 512MB of decent memory for a P4 is $300++. 08-03-102 14:48:07 We are providing the Enterprise (for the first time ever - really) - a Manageable Desktop: completely platform independent. 08-03-102 14:49:04 When will ecsWOS be available? 08-03-102 14:49:14 This is something they wanted IBM to provide them - and IBM came back with Java. 08-03-102 14:49:45 @eCSuserAB: yes you need memory - actually you can stay with 256MB using a 80MB VPC-Windows session ... 08-03-102 14:50:01 @kim: :-) 08-03-102 14:50:23 08-03-102 14:50:46 When is it available? 08-03-102 14:51:05 First, we need to find pilots. 08-03-102 14:52:36 Kim: Will these pilots need ecs 1.0 or 1.1?? 08-03-102 14:52:50 Due to the sensitivity issues involved, this will be a close pilot available only to consutants that are willing to enter NDA with us. 08-03-102 14:52:52 Hi Jake 08-03-102 14:53:29 Eventually, everybody will benefit from this. 08-03-102 14:54:54 Chris, we are talking about "eComStation WorkSpace OS". 08-03-102 14:57:05 Kim: SSI has pursued thin client deployment (Micho's work, Wisemanager) up to this point, but ecsWOS sounds like a pretty fat client. Or am I missing something? 08-03-102 14:57:31 SSI is about "Managed Client" - not "thin client". 08-03-102 14:57:52 Yes, eCSWOS is a convergence point of all of our past work. 08-03-102 14:57:54 Just been catching up... ecsnl: ogg vorbis is a bsd style license... we have nothing to fear from that. 08-03-102 14:58:37 The problem is that industry never brought the WSOD style solution. 08-03-102 14:58:49 "Thin Client" simply doesn't sell. 08-03-102 14:59:03 @jake @ecsNL : so OGGVorbis and its integration with the classes from Chris should be no problem ... 08-03-102 14:59:07 managed client is the key... a laptop is a fat client, and not always on the network. Can make managing it a problem if all your tools are geared to remote booted stations. 08-03-102 14:59:18 looking into things 08-03-102 15:00:01 The industry wants the benefit of what the fat client model offers but they don't want the headache associated with these "wonderful monsters" - including the inability to run platform independent applications. 08-03-102 15:00:06 ecsnl: was just reading the license. All we need to do is to point to the source of the software (chris) and ecs is off the hook. I don't think chris even needs to release his source if he doesn't want to. 08-03-102 15:00:45 fat clients don't have an inability to do that... the fact that currently they don't is not a feature of a fat client... it's a feature of a particular fat client. 08-03-102 15:00:52 kim, i agree 08-03-102 15:01:53 mp3licensing.com 08-03-102 15:02:00 is looking if ogg vorbis violates there 08-03-102 15:02:03 patents... 08-03-102 15:02:06 We incude it 08-03-102 15:02:11 we could run a risk 08-03-102 15:03:10 yes, ecsNL those things have to be clear 08-03-102 15:03:29 The enterprise have enough of a headache on their hand having hundreds and thousands and hundred thousands of these monsters running around, now we are telling them that all of those little angles (stations that runs OS/2) will now be running in Windows, inside a 300M container? 08-03-102 15:03:41 maybe a lawyer should look inti this ... Ulrich Moeller maybe ? 08-03-102 15:03:51 angels, not angles. 08-03-102 15:04:16 yes kim ! they won't buy it 08-03-102 15:04:37 they will stay with win :-( 08-03-102 15:04:44 i think he is probably busy enough with warpin and xwp 08-03-102 15:05:11 But the "OS/2" issue is becoming such a political hot potato that they will do anything to get away from it. 08-03-102 15:05:58 correct 08-03-102 15:06:01 Bela, that's why we must look at eCSWOS as a homerun all around platform solution. 08-03-102 15:06:15 yes 08-03-102 15:06:44 ecsnl: Where did you hear that thomson/fraunhofer thought ogg violated their patents? 08-03-102 15:06:53 @ ecsNL: have you read the following about license rates: mp3 Decoder · US$ 0.75 per unit 08-03-102 15:07:06 Jake and Rod, can you discuss that via private channel. 08-03-102 15:07:16 bela 08-03-102 15:07:17 [VOICENWS] Event: Speakup with Serenity Systems tonight (Sat. August 3rd) 08-03-102 15:07:23 about patents 08-03-102 15:07:32 I know a lot already 08-03-102 15:08:00 @ ecsnl : ok 08-03-102 15:08:27 There will be a VOICE speakup with Serenity Systems on the WEBBnet IRC network tonight at 8:00pm EDT (00:00 GMT) in the #VOICE channel. 08-03-102 15:08:38 kim, I see your agumentation 08-03-102 15:08:48 Kim: In light of the hefty hardware demand for this and the need for multiple OS liscence to deploy it, please explain the lower cost of ownership. 08-03-102 15:08:50 I using eCS and VPC for that way 08-03-102 15:09:06 but: 08-03-102 15:09:22 Skip, the accqusition part is the least costly of the whole equation. 08-03-102 15:09:42 enterprises will argue: why use win32 apps inside vpc - when i can run windows with these apps ... 08-03-102 15:10:06 bela: Because the cost of ownership for Windows is extremely high. 08-03-102 15:10:30 By running a "normalized" version of Windows, you have reduced that cost of ownership by an order of magnitude. 08-03-102 15:10:44 everybody knows it - but they are all using it ;) 08-03-102 15:11:05 Bela: because there hasn't been any other way to do it. 08-03-102 15:11:22 WSOD 3.0 attempted to addres the issue but enterprise doesn't buy it. 08-03-102 15:11:38 same applies to novell zen-works :-( 08-03-102 15:11:42 kim - IMO there has been a way with UNIXstuff - but thats going too far away ;) 08-03-102 15:12:29 Never in history do we have the necessary hardware and infrasture in place to do what eCSWOS attempts to do. 08-03-102 15:13:21 that is correct and a chance for it - hardware is fast engough (for VPCstuff) and quite cheap 08-03-102 15:13:50 Imagine what this means to Intel's sales account rep... 08-03-102 15:14:21 Imagine what this means to channel partners that's been searching for the reason to upgrade his accounts... 08-03-102 15:14:23 and to AMD's 08-03-102 15:14:32 And to Kingston... 08-03-102 15:14:43 And to IBM global service...' 08-03-102 15:14:52 I'm very sorry. Its 0:10 here and I was hoping to stay for the next speak up... But I'm VERY tired and can hardly stay awake, so sorry, but I'm shutting down and going to bed... 08-03-102 15:15:16 kim - may you tell me/us about your experiences wiht VPC and CPUpower ? 08-03-102 15:15:32 @ecsNL have a good night 08-03-102 15:15:40 So, we are no longer promoting a product that causes the entire industry to be up in arms against us.... 08-03-102 15:15:58 we are promoting a solution that everybody loves (or should love). 08-03-102 15:16:05 that is a psychological issue ... good point 08-03-102 15:16:22 bela, I don't find CPUpower a problem with VPC - it's I/O. 08-03-102 15:16:23 Kim good night sorry I'm leaving but I need to sleep, good night 08-03-102 15:16:49 good night 08-03-102 15:17:06 If anybody has questions in regards to eCS and Mensys 08-03-102 15:17:15 rwklein@mensys.nl 08-03-102 15:17:26 by kim 08-03-102 15:17:31 We are testing using IBM/3x5 servers (1.1G/all SCSI) vs my DeskNote (2G/512KCache/IDE), and we are certainly liking running VPC on the IBM hardware. 08-03-102 15:17:53 @ecsnl slaap lekker 08-03-102 15:18:04 The IBM machines are running P3 and my DeskNote is running P4. 08-03-102 15:18:12 my Athlon 600 ist too slow (for me) for VPC ... 08-03-102 15:19:20 MozillaSm, true as that might be but you are looking at a 1.1 vs a 2G CPU. 08-03-102 15:19:53 I/O. I/O is the issue. I don't think this is a CPU bound task. 08-03-102 15:20:27 for I/O: will these small container files be a pro ? e.g. for JFS cache ? 08-03-102 15:20:43 Kim: So am I correct in thinking that muscular machines with windows installed would be obtained and then have ecsWOS added? Then the installed winxx would be lifted via VPC from disc as the "normalized" workplace. 08-03-102 15:21:20 Skip, we have sucessfully done that with W9x. No luck with XP/NT yet. 08-03-102 15:21:40 But preloads means nothing to the enterprise anyway. 08-03-102 15:22:58 We are actually trying to encourage couple of vendors to have an "optimized for eCSWOS" hardware ready in time for our launch. 08-03-102 15:25:37 Do I have it right, Kim? eCSWSOD is a different product from eCS 1.1? And eCS UP will provide 1.1 but not VPC? 08-03-102 15:26:02 eCSUserAB: correct. 08-03-102 15:26:32 But we will certainly have something for eCS user. 08-03-102 15:26:41 Just can't say exactly what yet. 08-03-102 15:26:43 Kim: So hefty hardware is obtained, ecsWOS installed, existing Win?? liscence added via VPC, legacy apps installed to VPC? I am just trying to picture this though the eye of a companies PC support guy. 08-03-102 15:27:31 Skip, please detail your question a little more... 08-03-102 15:27:39 Kim, the VPC tests were on IBM X220 servers 08-03-102 15:27:43 I meant "eCSWOS" 08-03-102 15:30:44 Kim: I've been away and may have missed it if you already answered this: Any chance we will be able to actually see eCSWOS at Warpstock? 08-03-102 15:32:07 Mark, might not. There is some sensitivity issue here. 08-03-102 15:32:32 kim - but for eCS1.1 VPC will be just the "addon" ? 08-03-102 15:32:57 how much do you predict that eCSWOS will cost? 08-03-102 15:33:06 or ecs+VPC= eCSWOS ? 08-03-102 15:33:28 eCSWOS is *not* eCS+VPC. 08-03-102 15:34:08 KIM: If I were to describe this product to the tech people of some company that uses windows I would tell them that ecsWOS is installed on a PC. An existing Win Liscensed cd is then used to install Win?? to that machine by using VPC. Then all legacy apps are installed on that virtual pc. Also, many win liscenses could be deployed with this VPC and their associated apps. 08-03-102 15:34:29 Is that about right?? 08-03-102 15:35:02 eCSWOS = eCS (as a base) + VPC (as a technology) + WiseManager (new components added to support what I talked about) + Linux distro and applications + Other unnamed Network Management suites....+ 08-03-102 15:36:32 yes kim - i see - my "ecs+vpc" was too short ;) but my understanding of eCSWOS was that what you described ... 08-03-102 15:39:58 Skip: In it's very basic form, you start with a 7M distro (like a CD), it would boot up, "lift" the Windows you have on the fat client, insert a very thin eCS into the system, and then when you reboot, you will be running that same Windows (applications and all) in a *normalized* fashion. 08-03-102 15:40:51 And this is "legal"? how many windows-licenses will i need then? 08-03-102 15:41:26 To go a step further, you can selectively run either from a server when the link is available or from the local machine when that server link is not available. 08-03-102 15:41:43 markus: we are not doing anything Windows isn't already doing. 08-03-102 15:42:30 You are running the same code, using the same hardware, by the same person, employed by the same organization. 08-03-102 15:43:32 so after rebooting - what will i see ? the wps or directly win ? 08-03-102 15:43:46 If you want to see Windows, you see Windows. 08-03-102 15:44:19 but you are running eCS as base and windows via vpc ? 08-03-102 15:44:51 So the OS portion is the base OS (very thin, very transparent, very stable) that supports all that Winxx stuff as an application. Is that right? 08-03-102 15:45:22 ok, i just wanted to remind of this XP eula sentence that forbids any non-licensed "device" to display the windows desktop. ms wants to avoid "10 linux users running windows apps on one machine (=license) remotely. still be careful (see anytime later http://www.infoworld.com/articles/op/xml/02/05/27/020527opwinman.xml) 08-03-102 15:45:37 Skip, not just Winxx. It can be Linux, and yes, OS/2!!! 08-03-102 15:46:40 Markus, M$ can just able do anything they want with their EULA. That's why we don't design into the process what they will or will not do. 08-03-102 15:47:10 kim - sorry - but who would buy such a thing just to run win via ecsKernal 08-03-102 15:47:40 The idea is now to draw a circle in the sand and ask Windows to sit there, don't move. I will pay you whatever you want to play inside the circle. 08-03-102 15:48:14 bela, plenty of people. The cost of ownership for Windows - any version is extremely high. 08-03-102 15:48:38 put the still have to pay for that win-license ... 08-03-102 15:48:47 sorry - i do not see the point 08-03-102 15:49:06 One enterprise (with 6 digit numbers of stations) was willing to do anything to get rid of Windows from their desktop. 08-03-102 15:49:32 you are using an ecs kernal and vpc to provide a abstartion of that real hardware, correct 08-03-102 15:49:44 to install win, or linux into that vm 08-03-102 15:49:50 They were even willing to deploy Citrix to *all* of their desktops (in spite of the astronomical cost) if they could only make Citrix work under that environment. 08-03-102 15:50:28 but you won't use ecs in whole (wps and so on) ? 08-03-102 15:50:47 Again, you have to keep in mind that accquistion cost is the least of their concern. 08-03-102 15:51:23 bela: Unfortunately for all of us, very little of the WPS is being used by the enterprise (and the industry as a whole). 08-03-102 15:51:42 kim - i seem i misunderstand sonething here, sorry -but what will be the base of daily usage in your system ? 08-03-102 15:52:07 Bela, the "base"? 08-03-102 15:52:42 base = just a kernal or a "complete OS" ? 08-03-102 15:52:52 Kim: What concrete savings can be demonstrated? Support Desk? Continued usefullness of legacy apps? Open source?? 08-03-102 15:53:41 Bela: OS/2 has *always* been scalable. That's the number one reason saving OS/2's skin to this day. 08-03-102 15:53:48 if you are using just the kernal itself - you acn switch to linux an vmware ...? you do not need OS/2 technoloy at all 08-03-102 15:54:16 you even can save money as you do not need to spent moeny to IBM ... 08-03-102 15:55:12 It's so scalable that if in a few years time, IBM can not be convinced to travel a different path, yes, it's conceivable that a replacement kernel, a replacement Windows manager, and, yes, a replacement WPS can be implanted - one module at a time. 08-03-102 15:55:51 Skip: All of the above. Plus... 08-03-102 15:56:14 Enterprise can not freely explore what else is out there - without the fear of breaking their legacy Windows applications. 08-03-102 15:57:02 Kim: Could winxx apps be icons on the desktop? 08-03-102 16:12:33 If you save the VPC session in a 'save current state to disk' it is rather quick 08-03-102 16:13:11 (i.e. just the time it takes to read the amount of memory used by the VPC session from disk) 08-03-102 16:13:28 Joachim: Like a full-screen Win/os2 session say? 08-03-102 16:13:35 no, longer 08-03-102 16:13:50 128 MB reading from disk takes something like 15 secs or so 08-03-102 16:13:51 So it saves windoze as a memory image? 08-03-102 16:13:55 yes 08-03-102 16:14:02 (optionally) 08-03-102 16:14:31 I think you will all be able to testdrive VPC soon, as Innotek will release a timelimited version (or so they promised me) 08-03-102 16:14:48 Can a BPC session be minimized to the desktop? 08-03-102 16:15:03 BPC=VPC 08-03-102 16:15:10 yes, i see 08-03-102 16:15:34 but what do you mean with minimize to desktop? 08-03-102 16:17:52 I can be running a Win program in a Win/OS2 window and minimize it. It appears as a icon at the bottom of the screen. 08-03-102 16:18:28 I can click on it and it reappears where I left off. 08-03-102 16:18:40 I use this quite a bit. 08-03-102 16:19:13 ah, okay. Well, yes, it is just another os/2 app to the system. However, it takes up a lot of resources, obviously. So it may not be a desireable way to work