08-03-102 17:46:56 Ok, now, the discussion of VPC for the enterprise. 08-03-102 17:47:04 It has to do with making things more manageable. 08-03-102 17:47:38 those guys need windows... they're junked on it and getting off will take a long time and a lot of money. 08-03-102 17:48:09 Easiest way to create a test CD is with RSJ or else mkisofs from the command-line. 08-03-102 17:48:24 However, windows is very expensive to run. Windows Zero Management push was a complete flop. 08-03-102 17:48:34 I wouldn't suggest using the Creator GUI, people seem to have problems doing it that way... 08-03-102 17:49:07 However, OS/2 and eCS are not like that... there are a lot of things that make managing large networks much easier than on windows... things like CID and so on. 08-03-102 17:49:23 AlexTaylo: I used RSJ. I used CD View. But everytime I finalized it there were no files on the CDR 08-03-102 17:49:37 One thing that helps is the ability to reduce the standard windows desktop to a one or two GB image file in a VPC container. 08-03-102 17:50:06 MADecsSMP: not even a TRK file? 08-03-102 17:50:17 AlexTaylo: Nope, nada 08-03-102 17:50:42 MADecsSMP: that may indicate a problem with your writer... OTOH, you might want to try mkisofs. 08-03-102 17:50:44 If someone screws there image up... the base system is still available for downloading a replacement image to the HD without having to truck out to the workstation in question. 08-03-102 17:51:29 Sorry, not mkisofs, I mean 'cdrecord'. 08-03-102 17:51:29 Think about a network with 10k workstations, how much the typical tech makes per hour, and start thinking about how much time they spend walking from one workstation to the next... and you can see why this approach might have some appeal. 08-03-102 17:51:45 It also has appeal to other sectors of the marketplace. 08-03-102 17:51:57 Yes... cdrecord is the program. 08-03-102 17:52:09 So eCS becomes a windoze network installer/re-installer. 08-03-102 17:52:41 VPC is memory, motherboard, and CPU intensive... this will help intel, amd, and resellers upgrade their customers. 08-03-102 17:52:45 Thx jake. So the big business will benefit. How about endusers? 08-03-102 17:52:49 I've been away for a week. Is there a new test boot image file? 08-03-102 17:52:53 cdrecord2 -v -eject dev=x,y,z ecstest.trk 08-03-102 17:53:05 There will be a tangible benefit to the client because there day to day management costs will drop. 08-03-102 17:53:15 er... their day to day costs;) 08-03-102 17:53:45 Big business will give the seats, which will mean money to invest in making native solutions that can take over from the windows solutions running in virtual machines. 08-03-102 17:54:05 madecssmp... NAFAIK. 08-03-102 17:54:59 A problem for OS/2 is that it runs well on old hardware. This means that there's no percentage in the hardware vendor or reseller in pushing the solution... the windows treadmill has been very lucrative for the distribution chain. 08-03-102 17:56:13 However, right now, there's a way to make it look good to them because it will require at least a one time upgrade on the part of the customer to gear their systems for VPC... 512MB RAM, high end Athlons and/or P4s, and scsi to help out the disk IO mean that they can sell hardware. 08-03-102 17:57:31 Unless of course the customer allready has said hardware 08-03-102 17:57:55 You're right in that this turns ecs into a windows manager sort of thing... but if native solutions are found, they will perform better, look better, and be better than the one inside the VM. 08-03-102 17:58:16 Sector: yes, that's true... I certainly don't think we're going to take over the world. 08-03-102 17:58:40 Problem is, developers may look at it as if I develop for mickysoft windoze it'll run on those use VPC as well... 08-03-102 17:58:54 However, I don't really need THAT many customers to make a good living for myself... and the platform doesn't need that many mes to be able to justify continuing platform development. 08-03-102 17:59:43 Dell probably has that hardware... but do you think that GM has it on all their desktops? 08-03-102 18:00:03 * jake would love to have that hardware... and not just for VPC:) 08-03-102 18:00:42 There's still a lot of PII and NT4 in the enterprise... I figure that NT4 still has a good year in it before it's all gone in favour of Win2K. 08-03-102 18:01:02 jake: GM has a LOT of old hardware (in .au anyways) 08-03-102 18:01:28 a lot is disappearing now though as Win2k is rolled out 08-03-102 18:01:33 There is still a lot of old hardware in canada too. 08-03-102 18:01:53 Royal Bank still has NT4 on the desktop, and I'm guessing most of them are PIIs. 08-03-102 18:02:47 At any rate... one of the main points is that we're not a solution that lets people keep hardware for ten years anymore... this makes us look better to the reseller. 08-03-102 18:03:18 The fact that ecs w/ vpc will let you maintain that level of hardware for a long time is something that's besides the point. 08-03-102 18:03:23 But probably most of them cannot support large (GB) amount of memory needed for VPC 08-03-102 18:03:31 The main thing is getting sales, so that there's money to do things. 08-03-102 18:04:45 That's just it... if you have PIIs on your desktop, it doesn't cut it. This means that the reseller channel can sell an upgrade to their hardware. More sales means more money for them, which makes this solution look more appealing as a money maker for those guys. 08-03-102 18:05:04 ... and the reseller channel moves a LOT of product. 08-03-102 18:07:21 Also, it will help them tame the support cost beast. By using this solution... they can charge less than their competition for support contracts, and still make more money because they'll just be copying a new image file to a still functioning system, instead of having to reinstall the system from scratch. 08-03-102 18:08:13 This looks good for large businesses... and hopefully this will translate into sales... which will mean money for development. 08-03-102 18:08:32 It's the trickle-down theory of platform development. 08-03-102 18:08:35 let's hope 08-03-102 18:08:52 Indeed... there's no guarantee this will fly in the marketplace. 08-03-102 18:09:07 We can but throw it at the wall and hope it sticks:) 08-03-102 18:09:34 jake: Is there much if any interest in eCS from existing OS/2 corporate users in Canada yet? 08-03-102 18:10:42 madecssmp: Not really. 1.0 is not really a vendable product, not least because it's not available in French. For large Canadian firms, that's a killer... if they have offices in Quebec, they have to have a French version. 08-03-102 18:11:28 since Quebec is about one quarter of the Canadian market as a whole, pretty much all large firms have offices in Quebec. 08-03-102 18:11:58 I've been in a holding pattern waiting for the NLS versions to come out, pretty much. 08-03-102 18:12:53 Why is it that Quebec license plates only have a french motto on them and not French and English? I thought everything had to be bilingual in Canada? 08-03-102 18:13:20 The rules are more complicated than that. 08-03-102 18:13:27 Not at all... language policies are provincial. 08-03-102 18:13:43 There's only one officially biling province... New Brunswick. 08-03-102 18:14:10 Quebec is uniling French, and everyone else is uniling English. 08-03-102 18:14:22 Product packaging has to be in both languages... and government services must be available in both. Other than that... 08-03-102 18:14:29 ...it really varies. 08-03-102 18:14:30 INternational trade is a federal responsibility, though... and they require bilingual packaging. 08-03-102 18:14:42 that's the truth, eh Alex? 08-03-102 18:14:50 Pretty sure. 08-03-102 18:24:36 what is miniLVM? 08-03-102 18:24:50 madecssmp: a pretty front end for lvm :) 08-03-102 18:25:03 Short name for 'installation volume manager', a stripped-down GUI for LVM to be used in the 1.1 installer. 08-03-102 18:25:05 miniLVM is the version from the bootCD test drop, correct ? 08-03-102 18:25:15 What cannot minLVM do that LVM can? 08-03-102 18:25:19 I've updated it a bit since then, but yes. 08-03-102 18:25:20 I take it there is no java required for it 08-03-102 18:25:31 No, no Java. It's pure PM. 08-03-102 18:25:44 wouldn't be loaded from RAM if it was hehe 08-03-102 18:26:24 Off the top of my head, MiniLVM can't create multi-partition volumes, rename disk drives, or give partitions separate names from volumes. 08-03-102 18:27:02 what doesn't it do? 08-03-102 18:27:18 It can accept multi-partition volumes if you have them already, of course. But it can't create them. 08-03-102 18:28:42 That was the key design decision. Without multi-volume partitions, there's no need to have the split logical view/physical view mess. So there's just one view, reminiscent of FDISK. 08-03-102 18:28:54 so far as i have tested it - it is a nice piece of software ... 08-03-102 18:29:13 it will fit the needs for "normal" users ;-) 08-03-102 18:29:18 As a bonus, it also creates partitions from the _beginning_ of free space (instead of the end, like LVM). I figured people would prefer that... :) 08-03-102 18:29:46 Good decision 08-03-102 18:29:46 and for the rest - we do have IBM's LVM ... 08-03-102 18:30:08 I hated that about LVM.. I would always partition first to avoid it 08-03-102 18:30:42 Quite, quite. (MiniLVM, LVM.EXE and LVMGUI are all front-ends to the LVM Engine, which is located in LVM.DLL -- which makes things /very/ convenient.) 08-03-102 18:31:25 Has anything been done to change the looks of LVM? I know there was talk of redoing it better a long time back. 08-03-102 18:31:47 miniLVM is a nice looking PMapp 08-03-102 18:32:20 Agreed 08-03-102 18:32:43 http://www.cs-club.org/~alex/os2/lvm/minilvm01.gif 08-03-102 18:33:31 As for LVM itself... well, we hope to eventually provide a rewritten front-end for the 'full' version. Don't know how soon that'll become a reality though. 08-03-102 18:33:45 ah - you're the author of this app ? 08-03-102 18:34:15 Yup. 08-03-102 18:34:49 I was originally hoping somebody else would do it... but after putting the LVM API documentation together, it seemed logical... 08-03-102 18:34:50 It looks very nice! 08-03-102 18:35:11 ...and nobody else was doing it, so I taught myself the basics of PM programming and sat down. 08-03-102 18:35:29 AlexTaylo: What did you write it in? C? 08-03-102 18:35:54 Will minLVM be installed in the setup directory the same as LVM after installation? 08-03-102 18:36:10 Kim had been pushing it for a while of course, but we couldn't find an author. So I gave in and did it myself. 08-03-102 18:36:23 It's written in C. 08-03-102 18:36:53 I don't know if it will be available after installation. That'll presumably be decided by the ruler of the installation dev team. 08-03-102 18:37:21 Which compiler did you use? 08-03-102 18:37:35 Keep in mind, minilvm is written for installation only. It is entirely designed with the assumption that the user is installing the OS... hence the lack of certain 'advanced' functions. 08-03-102 18:37:52 It /works/ perfectly well after install, of course... 08-03-102 18:37:56 I used VAC++ 3.08. 08-03-102 18:38:27 But it's pure C, no C++. 08-03-102 18:38:28 LVMgui should be buried 08-03-102 18:38:57 Just used the ICC.EXE compiler as well. No Builder, no OpenClass/ICL. Just ICC and the OS/2 PM toolkit. 08-03-102 18:39:09 So it should be perfectly compilable with any other OS/2 C compiler. 08-03-102 18:40:05 MADecsSMP: I agree. That's why I started the LVM interface design sketches in the first place... 08-03-102 18:40:31 I may have learned enough to actually start bringing them to reality. If I ever get six free months... ;) 08-03-102 18:41:54 it amazes me that so much has been done in "free time' whatever that is. I can't find the time to do much of anything anymore. 08-03-102 18:44:14 indeed - it amazes me too - that so much work is done for "free" ... 08-03-102 18:44:21 Well, it's for a great cause... 08-03-102 18:45:36 Alex, how long have you been working on the miniLVM? 08-03-102 18:46:15 A few months. I started it during my spring vacation, think that was April or May. 08-03-102 18:48:31 Hey, I'm just one guy among many. David, Joachim, Alessandro, Ulrich, Aaron, all the others too numerous to mention... they're the real workhorses here. 08-03-102 18:49:14 And the fine people at Serenity, of course. Kim, Bob, Glenn, et al. 08-03-102 18:50:11 And Jack, Duane and the other distros. If Jack ever gets back, that is. I think he must be singing his kids lullabies. :) 08-03-102 18:56:32 Does theme01.zip contain you new thems? 08-03-102 18:57:51 Yes it was. I guess Peter didn't check with you. Sorry about that 08-03-102 19:01:39 It's just one theme. I've done a couple others, which should be going into eCS 1.1. (The coloured tiles theme may not be in 1.1 though... ThemeMgr is probably frozen by now.) 08-03-102 19:03:51 Why not use Wisemachine to add additional themes and thkgrds as you do 3rd party programs. 08-03-102 19:04:49 Well, I don't really have any contact with WiseMachine. That's Serenity's baby. 08-03-102 19:05:23 Besides, IMHO it's not great practise to encourage users to think of WiseMachine as an installer... it can be used as one under certain conditions, but that's not what it's for. 08-03-102 19:06:30 Many people seem t ohave a tough time figuring out what WM is 08-03-102 19:06:54 It logical. Let people submit themes and thkgrds to a site, Serenity makes it possible to add additional themes and thkgrds just like Windows does for its additional themes. 08-03-102 19:06:55 Wisemachine is an enterprise tool for cloning o 08-03-102 19:07:18 Wisemachine is an enterprise tool for cloning or repairing /previously-installed applications/ 08-03-102 19:07:24 08-03-102 19:07:59 It can be invaluable on large installations, e.g. corporate situations. 08-03-102 19:08:38 For instance, you know that old REXX utility, ORC? (Object Re-Creator, available on Hobbes?) 08-03-102 19:08:46 Its also helpful with re-installs 08-03-102 19:09:15 When you have the apps installed on a different partition then the OS 08-03-102 19:09:23 Think of WiseMachine as a generic scriptable ORC for applications. An infinitely extensible one. 08-03-102 19:09:47 Amazingly handy utiilty, when you have a use or need for it. 08-03-102 19:09:57 But if you don't need it, don't use it. 08-03-102 19:10:30 Plus it works on files as well as objects, unlike (AFAIK) ORC. 08-03-102 19:12:01 True, if you reinstalled your OS you can re-enabled applications with WiseMachine, without having to reinstall them as well. Really nice capability. 08-03-102 19:12:46 What's badly needed right now is for somebody to write a replacement for Object Package. 08-03-102 19:13:24 WiseMachine is just one half of the deal... the half that takes package scripts and applies them. 08-03-102 19:13:46 ...The other half is the packager, which generates packages. 08-03-102 19:13:59 This used to be Object Package. Then StarDock discontinued it. :( 08-03-102 19:14:42 We really must find somebody willing and able to write a functional (or enhanced :) ) replacement for Object Package. 08-03-102 19:14:44 unfortunately their is no chance (or it seems so) to get those stuff from StarDock 08-03-102 19:15:05 I suspect most of what's needed is already available in XWorkplace. 08-03-102 19:15:49 XWorkplace has the logic to deal with object attributes and setup strings already. What Object Package is, fundamentally, is a utility that takes the contents of the Icon 'Details' page which XWorkplace adds to objects... 08-03-102 19:15:58 one of the only things that isnt in XWP is, as alex said, object packager 08-03-102 19:16:23 ...parses it into a REXX script for recreation, and saves it in a few different formats. 08-03-102 19:17:28 I think created a 'WisePackage' from XWorkplace functions would be pretty easy... for someone who (a) knows WPS/SOM programming, and (b) is at least passingly familiar with XWorkplace's internals (or can become so). 08-03-102 19:17:47 Unfortunately, Ulrich's busy. :) 08-03-102 19:18:29 maybe someone else would volunteer to make it 08-03-102 19:19:07 I hope so. I know Kim really wants someone to do that... but I don't know if he's been asking in the right places. 08-03-102 19:19:54 if only there were more volunteers... 08-03-102 19:20:19 maybe we should convert some of the linux users :-) 08-03-102 19:20:28 All the same, we have some incredibly bright and talented people already. 08-03-102 19:20:38 Just not enough of them. 08-03-102 19:21:09 I already suspect Ulrich never sleeps. 08-03-102 19:21:28 I'm wondering a bit about Alessandro as well. :) 08-03-102 19:21:28 Unfortunately I can't code, otherwise I would be willing to help out a little. 08-03-102 19:22:07 There's more than coding to be done. 08-03-102 19:22:50 what, for an example? 08-03-102 19:23:13 There's writing documentation, translating to other languages, giving design feedback... even just testing and reporting is tremendously valuable. 08-03-102 19:23:41 Pretty much none of the work I did for 1.0 was coding. 08-03-102 19:23:42 well, I know I can test the software :-) 08-03-102 19:24:26 yes - i also have a lot of experience - concering this issue 08-03-102 19:24:27 unless using Babelfish counts, I can't translate either :-) 08-03-102 19:25:05 I helped design the desktop layout (mainly taking screenshots), contributed bits of design for the installer (Paint Brush), wrote scripts to generate various parts of the desktop (REXX)... 08-03-102 19:25:35 ...tested GUI enhancements, proofread dialogs and so on, wrote documentation... 08-03-102 19:26:01 There's lots that can be done without having to write code. 08-03-102 19:26:38 I have always wonder what program or programs have been used to make the graphics for the themes ? 08-03-102 19:26:42 which is harder, in your opinion, coding or writing documents? 08-03-102 19:27:03 MozillaSm: tough call. Depends what mood I'm in. :) 08-03-102 19:27:14 dwgras: ICONEDIT, mainly. 08-03-102 19:27:30 At least for mine. I think Alessandro uses Embellish. 08-03-102 19:28:45 paint brush, now that's quality software :-) 08-03-102 19:28:55 I still swear by Paint Brush. 08-03-102 19:29:21 It may be old and crude, but it's miles easier to use and more convenient than just about any other paint program I've ever used. 08-03-102 19:29:43 even a child can use Paint Brush 08-03-102 19:30:10 I did all my graphical designs (LVM, installer, etc.) in Paint Brush. 08-03-102 19:30:14 Yes, PaintBrush was definitely easy to use. 08-03-102 19:30:27 Some people seemed to have trouble believing that, though. :) 08-03-102 19:30:53 OK, I had to use Embellish to paste the text in, because Win-OS/2 can't see the WarpSans font. 08-03-102 19:31:14 If there was one font I really wanted, it would be a TTF version of WarpSans. 08-03-102 19:31:27 I agree 08-03-102 19:36:39 aley - you are looking for an ttf version of warpsans, correct ? 08-03-102 19:36:41 That's it. 08-03-102 19:36:59 bela: I'd like to see one done, yeah. 08-03-102 19:37:15 which format does warpsans use ? 08-03-102 19:37:23 adobe ps 08-03-102 19:37:26 It's bitmapped, I believe. 08-03-102 19:37:53 which means there is only one size :-( 08-03-102 19:37:59 where is that file installed ? 08-03-102 19:38:16 Jack's around somewhere, he said he was putting his kids to bed, then disappeared about 45min ago... 08-03-102 19:43:51 alex - do you know were this dammend warpsans file is ... I searched my hdd for it ... without luck 08-03-102 19:44:56 WarpSans isn't a font file. That's the problem. It's hardcoded into DSPRES.DLL. (You can extract it from the binary resources if you have a resource decompiler, but even then it's a bitmapped font so it doesn't do you too much good...) 08-03-102 19:47:25 I think 'mid-fall' is the absolute deadline, not the current target... but that's supposition on my part. 08-03-102 19:48:16 I know the new installer is coming along fairly nicely... and also, new methods of booting the installation CD are being tested. 08-03-102 19:48:30 (Hence the BootCD Test Track released recently.) 08-03-102 19:51:06 I think it's mainly fine-tuning. 08-03-102 19:51:20 Although, there may be an issue with floppy-emulation and BIOS support. 08-03-102 19:51:49 Some BIOSes (particularly certain SCSI controllers?) don't seem to support the emulated-floppy type of bootable CD. 08-03-102 19:52:06 That's what we used, also what most Linux distros use. But Windows uses a different method, naturally...