08-03-02 17:46:56 <jake> Ok, now, the discussion of VPC for the enterprise.
08-03-02 17:47:04 <jake> It has to do with making things more manageable.
08-03-02 17:47:38 <jake> those guys need windows... they're junked on it and getting off will take a long time and a lot of money.
08-03-02 17:48:09 <AlexTaylo> Easiest way to create a test CD is with RSJ or else mkisofs from the command-line.
08-03-02 17:48:24 <jake> However, windows is very expensive to run. Windows Zero Management push was a complete flop.
08-03-02 17:48:34 <AlexTaylo> I wouldn't suggest using the Creator GUI, people seem to have problems doing it that way...
08-03-02 17:49:07 <jake> However, OS/2 and eCS are not like that... there are a lot of things that make managing large networks much easier than on windows... things like CID and so on.
08-03-02 17:49:23 <MADecsSMP> AlexTaylo: I used RSJ. I used CD View. But everytime I finalized it there were no files on the CDR
08-03-02 17:49:37 <jake> One thing that helps is the ability to reduce the standard windows desktop to a one or two GB image file in a VPC container.
08-03-02 17:50:06 <AlexTaylo> MADecsSMP: not even a TRK file?
08-03-02 17:50:17 <MADecsSMP> AlexTaylo: Nope, nada
08-03-02 17:50:42 <AlexTaylo> MADecsSMP: that may indicate a problem with your writer... OTOH, you might want to try mkisofs.
08-03-02 17:50:44 <jake> If someone screws there image up... the base system is still available for downloading a replacement image to the HD without having to truck out to the workstation in question.
08-03-02 17:51:29 <AlexTaylo> Sorry, not mkisofs, I mean 'cdrecord'.
08-03-02 17:51:29 <jake> Think about a network with 10k workstations, how much the typical tech makes per hour, and start thinking about how much time they spend walking from one workstation to the next... and you can see why this approach might have some appeal.
08-03-02 17:51:45 <jake> It also has appeal to other sectors of the marketplace.
08-03-02 17:51:57 <jake> Yes... cdrecord is the program.
08-03-02 17:52:09 <MADecsSMP> So eCS becomes a windoze network installer/re-installer.
08-03-02 17:52:41 <jake> VPC is memory, motherboard, and CPU intensive... this will help intel, amd, and resellers upgrade their customers.
08-03-02 17:52:45 <kimre> Thx jake. So the big business will benefit. How about endusers?
08-03-02 17:52:49 <MADecsSMP> I've been away for a week. Is there a new test boot image file?
08-03-02 17:52:53 <AlexTaylo> cdrecord2 -v -eject dev=x,y,z ecstest.trk
08-03-02 17:53:05 <jake> There will be a tangible benefit to the client because there day to day management costs will drop.
08-03-02 17:53:15 <jake> er... their day to day costs;)
08-03-02 17:53:45 <jake> Big business will give the seats, which will mean money to invest in making native solutions that can take over from the windows solutions running in virtual machines.
08-03-02 17:54:05 <jake> madecssmp... NAFAIK.
08-03-02 17:54:59 <jake> A problem for OS/2 is that it runs well on old hardware. This means that there's no percentage in the hardware vendor or reseller in pushing the solution... the windows treadmill has been very lucrative for the distribution chain.
08-03-02 17:56:13 <jake> However, right now, there's a way to make it look good to them because it will require at least a one time upgrade on the part of the customer to gear their systems for VPC... 512MB RAM, high end Athlons and/or P4s, and scsi to help out the disk IO mean that they can sell hardware.
08-03-02 17:57:31 <Sector> Unless of course the customer allready has said hardware
08-03-02 17:57:55 <jake> You're right in that this turns ecs into a windows manager sort of thing... but if native solutions are found, they will perform better, look better, and be better than the one inside the VM.
08-03-02 17:58:16 <jake> Sector: yes, that's true... I certainly don't think we're going to take over the world.
08-03-02 17:58:40 <Sector> Problem is, developers may look at it as if I develop for mickysoft windoze it'll run on those use VPC as well...
08-03-02 17:58:54 <jake> However, I don't really need THAT many customers to make a good living for myself... and the platform doesn't need that many mes to be able to justify continuing platform development.
08-03-02 17:59:43 <jake> Dell probably has that hardware... but do you think that GM has it on all their desktops?
08-03-02 18:00:03 * jake would love to have that hardware... and not just for VPC:)
08-03-02 18:00:42 <jake> There's still a lot of PII and NT4 in the enterprise... I figure that NT4 still has a good year in it before it's all gone in favour of Win2K.
08-03-02 18:01:02 <PSmedley> jake: GM has a LOT of old hardware (in .au anyways)
08-03-02 18:01:28 <PSmedley> a lot is disappearing now though as Win2k is rolled out
08-03-02 18:01:33 <jake> There is still a lot of old hardware in canada too.
08-03-02 18:01:53 <jake> Royal Bank still has NT4 on the desktop, and I'm guessing most of them are PIIs.
08-03-02 18:02:47 <jake> At any rate... one of the main points is that we're not a solution that lets people keep hardware for ten years anymore... this makes us look better to the reseller.
08-03-02 18:03:18 <jake> The fact that ecs w/ vpc will let you maintain that level of hardware for a long time is something that's besides the point.
08-03-02 18:03:23 <kimre> But probably most of them cannot support large (GB) amount of memory needed for VPC
08-03-02 18:03:31 <jake> The main thing is getting sales, so that there's money to do things.
08-03-02 18:04:45 <jake> That's just it... if you have PIIs on your desktop, it doesn't cut it. This means that the reseller channel can sell an upgrade to their hardware. More sales means more money for them, which makes this solution look more appealing as a money maker for those guys.
08-03-02 18:05:04 <jake> ... and the reseller channel moves a LOT of product.
08-03-02 18:07:21 <jake> Also, it will help them tame the support cost beast. By using this solution... they can charge less than their competition for support contracts, and still make more money because they'll just be copying a new image file to a still functioning system, instead of having to reinstall the system from scratch.
08-03-02 18:08:13 <jake> This looks good for large businesses... and hopefully this will translate into sales... which will mean money for development.
08-03-02 18:08:32 <jake> It's the trickle-down theory of platform development.
08-03-02 18:08:35 <bela> let's hope
08-03-02 18:08:52 <jake> Indeed... there's no guarantee this will fly in the marketplace.
08-03-02 18:09:07 <jake> We can but throw it at the wall and hope it sticks:)
08-03-02 18:09:34 <MADecsSMP> jake: Is there much if any interest in eCS from existing OS/2 corporate users in Canada yet?
08-03-02 18:10:42 <jake> madecssmp: Not really. 1.0 is not really a vendable product, not least because it's not available in French. For large Canadian firms, that's a killer... if they have offices in Quebec, they have to have a French version.
08-03-02 18:11:28 <jake> since Quebec is about one quarter of the Canadian market as a whole, pretty much all large firms have offices in Quebec.
08-03-02 18:11:58 <jake> I've been in a holding pattern waiting for the NLS versions to come out, pretty much.
08-03-02 18:12:53 <MADecsSMP> Why is it that Quebec license plates only have a french motto on them and not French and English? I thought everything had to be bilingual in Canada?
08-03-02 18:13:20 <AlexTaylo> The rules are more complicated than that.
08-03-02 18:13:27 <jake> Not at all... language policies are provincial.
08-03-02 18:13:43 <jake> There's only one officially biling province... New Brunswick.
08-03-02 18:14:10 <jake> Quebec is uniling French, and everyone else is uniling English.
08-03-02 18:14:22 <AlexTaylo> Product packaging has to be in both languages... and government services must be available in both. Other than that...
08-03-02 18:14:29 <AlexTaylo> ...it really varies.
08-03-02 18:14:30 <jake> INternational trade is a federal responsibility, though... and they require bilingual packaging.
08-03-02 18:14:42 <jake> that's the truth, eh Alex?
08-03-02 18:14:50 <AlexTaylo> Pretty sure.
08-03-02 18:24:36 <MADecsSMP> what is miniLVM?
08-03-02 18:24:50 <PSmedley> madecssmp: a pretty front end for lvm :)
08-03-02 18:25:03 <AlexTaylo> Short name for 'installation volume manager', a stripped-down GUI for LVM to be used in the 1.1 installer.
08-03-02 18:25:05 <bela> miniLVM is the version from the bootCD test drop, correct ?
08-03-02 18:25:15 <dwgras> What cannot minLVM do that LVM can?
08-03-02 18:25:19 <AlexTaylo> I've updated it a bit since then, but yes.
08-03-02 18:25:20 <MADecsSMP> I take it there is no java required for it
08-03-02 18:25:31 <AlexTaylo> No, no Java. It's pure PM.
08-03-02 18:25:44 <Rat-Salad> wouldn't be loaded from RAM if it was hehe
08-03-02 18:26:24 <AlexTaylo> Off the top of my head, MiniLVM can't create multi-partition volumes, rename disk drives, or give partitions separate names from volumes.
08-03-02 18:27:02 <kimre> what doesn't it do?
08-03-02 18:27:18 <AlexTaylo> It can accept multi-partition volumes if you have them already, of course. But it can't create them.
08-03-02 18:28:42 <AlexTaylo> That was the key design decision. Without multi-volume partitions, there's no need to have the split logical view/physical view mess. So there's just one view, reminiscent of FDISK.
08-03-02 18:28:54 <bela> so far as i have tested it - it is a nice piece of software ...
08-03-02 18:29:13 <bela> it will fit the needs for "normal" users ;-)
08-03-02 18:29:18 <AlexTaylo> As a bonus, it also creates partitions from the _beginning_ of free space (instead of the end, like LVM). I figured people would prefer that... :)
08-03-02 18:29:46 <dwgras> Good decision
08-03-02 18:29:46 <bela> and for the rest - we do have IBM's LVM ...
08-03-02 18:30:08 <Rat-Salad> I hated that about LVM.. I would always partition first to avoid it
08-03-02 18:30:42 <AlexTaylo> Quite, quite. (MiniLVM, LVM.EXE and LVMGUI are all front-ends to the LVM Engine, which is located in LVM.DLL -- which makes things /very/ convenient.)
08-03-02 18:31:25 <dwgras> Has anything been done to change the looks of LVM? I know there was talk of redoing it better a long time back.
08-03-02 18:31:47 <bela> miniLVM is a nice looking PMapp
08-03-02 18:32:20 <dwgras> Agreed
08-03-02 18:32:43 <AlexTaylo> http://www.cs-club.org/~alex/os2/lvm/minilvm01.gif
08-03-02 18:33:31 <AlexTaylo> As for LVM itself... well, we hope to eventually provide a rewritten front-end for the 'full' version. Don't know how soon that'll become a reality though.
08-03-02 18:33:45 <bela> ah - you're the author of this app ?
08-03-02 18:34:15 <AlexTaylo> Yup.
08-03-02 18:34:49 <AlexTaylo> I was originally hoping somebody else would do it... but after putting the LVM API documentation together, it seemed logical...
08-03-02 18:34:50 <kimre> It looks very nice!
08-03-02 18:35:11 <AlexTaylo> ...and nobody else was doing it, so I taught myself the basics of PM programming and sat down.
08-03-02 18:35:29 <MADecsSMP> AlexTaylo: What did you write it in? C?
08-03-02 18:35:54 <dwgras> Will minLVM be installed in the setup directory the same as LVM after installation?
08-03-02 18:36:10 <AlexTaylo> Kim had been pushing it for a while of course, but we couldn't find an author. So I gave in and did it myself.
08-03-02 18:36:23 <AlexTaylo> It's written in C.
08-03-02 18:36:53 <AlexTaylo> I don't know if it will be available after installation. That'll presumably be decided by the ruler of the installation dev team.
08-03-02 18:37:21 <MADecsSMP> Which compiler did you use?
08-03-02 18:37:35 <AlexTaylo> Keep in mind, minilvm is written for installation only. It is entirely designed with the assumption that the user is installing the OS... hence the lack of certain 'advanced' functions.
08-03-02 18:37:52 <AlexTaylo> It /works/ perfectly well after install, of course...
08-03-02 18:37:56 <AlexTaylo> I used VAC++ 3.08.
08-03-02 18:38:27 <AlexTaylo> But it's pure C, no C++.
08-03-02 18:38:28 <MADecsSMP> LVMgui should be buried
08-03-02 18:38:57 <AlexTaylo> Just used the ICC.EXE compiler as well. No Builder, no OpenClass/ICL. Just ICC and the OS/2 PM toolkit.
08-03-02 18:39:09 <AlexTaylo> So it should be perfectly compilable with any other OS/2 C compiler.
08-03-02 18:40:05 <AlexTaylo> MADecsSMP: I agree. That's why I started the LVM interface design sketches in the first place...
08-03-02 18:40:31 <AlexTaylo> I may have learned enough to actually start bringing them to reality. If I ever get six free months... ;)
08-03-02 18:41:54 <MADecsSMP> it amazes me that so much has been done in "free time' whatever that is. I can't find the time to do much of anything anymore.
08-03-02 18:44:14 <bela> indeed - it amazes me too - that so much work is done for "free" ...
08-03-02 18:44:21 <AlexTaylo> Well, it's for a great cause...
08-03-02 18:45:36 <dwgras> Alex, how long have you been working on the miniLVM?
08-03-02 18:46:15 <AlexTaylo> A few months. I started it during my spring vacation, think that was April or May.
08-03-02 18:48:31 <AlexTaylo> Hey, I'm just one guy among many. David, Joachim, Alessandro, Ulrich, Aaron, all the others too numerous to mention... they're the real workhorses here.
08-03-02 18:49:14 <AlexTaylo> And the fine people at Serenity, of course. Kim, Bob, Glenn, et al.
08-03-02 18:50:11 <AlexTaylo> And Jack, Duane and the other distros. If Jack ever gets back, that is. I think he must be singing his kids lullabies. :)
08-03-02 18:56:32 <dwgras> Does theme01.zip contain you new thems?
08-03-02 18:57:51 <MADecsSMP> Yes it was. I guess Peter didn't check with you. Sorry about that
08-03-02 19:01:39 <AlexTaylo> It's just one theme. I've done a couple others, which should be going into eCS 1.1. (The coloured tiles theme may not be in 1.1 though... ThemeMgr is probably frozen by now.)
08-03-02 19:03:51 <dwgras> Why not use Wisemachine to add additional themes and thkgrds as you do 3rd party programs.
08-03-02 19:04:49 <AlexTaylo> Well, I don't really have any contact with WiseMachine. That's Serenity's baby.
08-03-02 19:05:23 <AlexTaylo> Besides, IMHO it's not great practise to encourage users to think of WiseMachine as an installer... it can be used as one under certain conditions, but that's not what it's for.
08-03-02 19:06:30 <MADecsSMP> Many people seem t ohave a tough time figuring out what WM is
08-03-02 19:06:54 <dwgras> It logical. Let people submit themes and thkgrds to a site, Serenity makes it possible to add additional themes and thkgrds just like Windows does for its additional themes.
08-03-02 19:06:55 <AlexTaylo> <professor>Wisemachine is an enterprise tool for cloning o
08-03-02 19:07:18 <AlexTaylo> Wisemachine is an enterprise tool for cloning or repairing /previously-installed applications/
08-03-02 19:07:24 <AlexTaylo> </professor>
08-03-02 19:07:59 <AlexTaylo> It can be invaluable on large installations, e.g. corporate situations.
08-03-02 19:08:38 <AlexTaylo> For instance, you know that old REXX utility, ORC? (Object Re-Creator, available on Hobbes?)
08-03-02 19:08:46 <MADecsSMP> Its also helpful with re-installs
08-03-02 19:09:15 <MADecsSMP> When you have the apps installed on a different partition then the OS
08-03-02 19:09:23 <AlexTaylo> Think of WiseMachine as a generic scriptable ORC for applications. An infinitely extensible one.
08-03-02 19:09:47 <AlexTaylo> Amazingly handy utiilty, when you have a use or need for it.
08-03-02 19:09:57 <AlexTaylo> But if you don't need it, don't use it.
08-03-02 19:10:30 <AlexTaylo> Plus it works on files as well as objects, unlike (AFAIK) ORC.
08-03-02 19:12:01 <AlexTaylo> True, if you reinstalled your OS you can re-enabled applications with WiseMachine, without having to reinstall them as well. Really nice capability.
08-03-02 19:12:46 <AlexTaylo> What's badly needed right now is for somebody to write a replacement for Object Package.
08-03-02 19:13:24 <AlexTaylo> WiseMachine is just one half of the deal... the half that takes package scripts and applies them.
08-03-02 19:13:46 <AlexTaylo> ...The other half is the packager, which generates packages.
08-03-02 19:13:59 <AlexTaylo> This used to be Object Package. Then StarDock discontinued it. :(
08-03-02 19:14:42 <AlexTaylo> We really must find somebody willing and able to write a functional (or enhanced :) ) replacement for Object Package.
08-03-02 19:14:44 <bela> unfortunately their is no chance (or it seems so) to get those stuff from StarDock
08-03-02 19:15:05 <AlexTaylo> I suspect most of what's needed is already available in XWorkplace.
08-03-02 19:15:49 <AlexTaylo> XWorkplace has the logic to deal with object attributes and setup strings already. What Object Package is, fundamentally, is a utility that takes the contents of the Icon 'Details' page which XWorkplace adds to objects...
08-03-02 19:15:58 <MozillaSm> one of the only things that isnt in XWP is, as alex said, object packager
08-03-02 19:16:23 <AlexTaylo> ...parses it into a REXX script for recreation, and saves it in a few different formats.
08-03-02 19:17:28 <AlexTaylo> I think created a 'WisePackage' from XWorkplace functions would be pretty easy... for someone who (a) knows WPS/SOM programming, and (b) is at least passingly familiar with XWorkplace's internals (or can become so).
08-03-02 19:17:47 <AlexTaylo> Unfortunately, Ulrich's busy. :)
08-03-02 19:18:29 <MozillaSm> maybe someone else would volunteer to make it
08-03-02 19:19:07 <AlexTaylo> I hope so. I know Kim really wants someone to do that... but I don't know if he's been asking in the right places.
08-03-02 19:19:54 <MozillaSm> if only there were more volunteers...
08-03-02 19:20:19 <MozillaSm> maybe we should convert some of the linux users :-)
08-03-02 19:20:28 <AlexTaylo> All the same, we have some incredibly bright and talented people already.
08-03-02 19:20:38 <MozillaSm> Just not enough of them.
08-03-02 19:21:09 <AlexTaylo> I already suspect Ulrich never sleeps.
08-03-02 19:21:28 <AlexTaylo> I'm wondering a bit about Alessandro as well. :)
08-03-02 19:21:28 <MozillaSm> Unfortunately I can't code, otherwise I would be willing to help out a little.
08-03-02 19:22:07 <AlexTaylo> There's more than coding to be done.
08-03-02 19:22:50 <MozillaSm> what, for an example?
08-03-02 19:23:13 <AlexTaylo> There's writing documentation, translating to other languages, giving design feedback... even just testing and reporting is tremendously valuable.
08-03-02 19:23:41 <AlexTaylo> Pretty much none of the work I did for 1.0 was coding.
08-03-02 19:23:42 <MozillaSm> well, I know I can test the software :-)
08-03-02 19:24:26 <bela> yes - i also have a lot of experience - concering this issue
08-03-02 19:24:27 <MozillaSm> unless using Babelfish counts, I can't translate either :-)
08-03-02 19:25:05 <AlexTaylo> I helped design the desktop layout (mainly taking screenshots), contributed bits of design for the installer (Paint Brush), wrote scripts to generate various parts of the desktop (REXX)...
08-03-02 19:25:35 <AlexTaylo> ...tested GUI enhancements, proofread dialogs and so on, wrote documentation...
08-03-02 19:26:01 <AlexTaylo> There's lots that can be done without having to write code.
08-03-02 19:26:38 <dwgras> I have always wonder what program or programs have been used to make the graphics for the themes ?
08-03-02 19:26:42 <MozillaSm> which is harder, in your opinion, coding or writing documents?
08-03-02 19:27:03 <AlexTaylo> MozillaSm: tough call. Depends what mood I'm in. :)
08-03-02 19:27:14 <AlexTaylo> dwgras: ICONEDIT, mainly.
08-03-02 19:27:30 <AlexTaylo> At least for mine. I think Alessandro uses Embellish.
08-03-02 19:28:45 <MozillaSm> paint brush, now that's quality software :-)
08-03-02 19:28:55 <AlexTaylo> I still swear by Paint Brush.
08-03-02 19:29:21 <AlexTaylo> It may be old and crude, but it's miles easier to use and more convenient than just about any other paint program I've ever used.
08-03-02 19:29:43 <MozillaSm> even a child can use Paint Brush
08-03-02 19:30:10 <AlexTaylo> I did all my graphical designs (LVM, installer, etc.) in Paint Brush.
08-03-02 19:30:14 <dwgras> Yes, PaintBrush was definitely easy to use.
08-03-02 19:30:27 <AlexTaylo> Some people seemed to have trouble believing that, though. :)
08-03-02 19:30:53 <AlexTaylo> OK, I had to use Embellish to paste the text in, because Win-OS/2 can't see the WarpSans font.
08-03-02 19:31:14 <AlexTaylo> If there was one font I really wanted, it would be a TTF version of WarpSans.
08-03-02 19:31:27 <MozillaSm> I agree
08-03-02 19:36:39 <bela> aley - you are looking for an ttf version of warpsans, correct ?
08-03-02 19:36:41 <AlexTaylo> That's it.
08-03-02 19:36:59 <AlexTaylo> bela: I'd like to see one done, yeah.
08-03-02 19:37:15 <bela> which format does warpsans use ?
08-03-02 19:37:23 <bela> adobe ps
08-03-02 19:37:26 <AlexTaylo> It's bitmapped, I believe.
08-03-02 19:37:53 <MozillaSm> which means there is only one size :-(
08-03-02 19:37:59 <bela> where is that file installed ?
08-03-02 19:38:16 <AlexTaylo> Jack's around somewhere, he said he was putting his kids to bed, then disappeared about 45min ago...
08-03-02 19:43:51 <bela> alex - do you know were this dammend warpsans file is ... I searched my hdd for it ... without luck
08-03-02 19:44:56 <AlexTaylo> WarpSans isn't a font file. That's the problem. It's hardcoded into DSPRES.DLL. (You can extract it from the binary resources if you have a resource decompiler, but even then it's a bitmapped font so it doesn't do you too much good...)
08-03-02 19:47:25 <AlexTaylo> I think 'mid-fall' is the absolute deadline, not the current target... but that's supposition on my part.
08-03-02 19:48:16 <AlexTaylo> I know the new installer is coming along fairly nicely... and also, new methods of booting the installation CD are being tested.
08-03-02 19:48:30 <AlexTaylo> (Hence the BootCD Test Track released recently.)
08-03-02 19:51:06 <AlexTaylo> I think it's mainly fine-tuning.
08-03-02 19:51:20 <AlexTaylo> Although, there may be an issue with floppy-emulation and BIOS support.
08-03-02 19:51:49 <AlexTaylo> Some BIOSes (particularly certain SCSI controllers?) don't seem to support the emulated-floppy type of bootable CD.
08-03-02 19:52:06 <AlexTaylo> That's what we used, also what most Linux distros use. But Windows uses a different method, naturally...