| <Walter> | While we're waiting I got a question for Rollin. |
| <rollin> | Go for it. |
| <Walter> | This afternoon JunkSpy quit accepting mail or whatever it does again. I thought it was my ISP, but I checked with my wife she could still get mail. When I took JunkSpy "out of the loop" then I started getting mail. |
| <rollin> | What exactly happens? Does Junk Spy report an error or your email program? |
| <Walter> | This seems to be the LAN problem I've been experiencing for awhile. Have you made progress tracking it down? |
| <rollin> | I'm not sure what LAN problem you're refering to. Refresh my memory. |
| <Walter> | PMMAil tries to connect and after awhile jus times out. |
| <Walter> | I believe I mentioned it at the last Speakup when you came. Is there some long I could have generated to help track this thing. |
| <rollin> | There is an advanced debug log we can turn on, but let's do a little trouble shooting first. |
| <rollin> | Looking back through the old email I have, have you added an entry to your \mptn\etc\hosts file for your new LAN IP address? |
| <Walter> | Rollin, I've got a large number of IP's in the HOSTS file. |
| <rollin> | Including your computer? Do you still get the error message when Junk Spy starts or is that resovled? |
| <Walter> | No, that problem is resolved. Junkspy doesn't give me any error messages. |
| <rollin> | Ok, I will email you a set of steps to do the next time the problem occurs. How often does it occur? What does it take to fix it a reboot? |
| <Randell> | Walter, as a side note, let me remind you and others that you don't need to wait for a chat like this one to resolve those kind of issues... |
| <Randell> | Just send them along anytime to junkspy@sundialsystems.com |
| <Randell> | Well... since we have sort of gotten started with that... shall we get started? |
| <Walter> | It varies a lot. Sometimes it can go for months and be fine; other times it can fail several times in a month. The real problem is when it goes down, there is no know way to get it going again! A simple reboot doesn't do it. Restarting both JunkSpy and PMMail doesn't either. I *think* reinstalling JUNKSPY may do it but its been awhile since I tried it. |
| <rollin> | Ok, I'm emailing you now with several suggestions. |
| <Walter> | So let's officially start the meeting. |
| <Randell> | Great! I apologize for the fact that we don't have a specific topic for tonight... |
| <Walter> | This evening we are privileged to have Rollin and Randell from Sundial Systems on hand for our meeting. |
| <Walter> | I'll now turn the meeting over them. |
| <Randell> | Thanks Walter! |
| <Randell> | We tried hard to come up with something specific for tonight but nothing really seemed to fit will... |
| <Randell> | So we're basically going to open it up for "random access" questions and answers on anything Sundial related... |
| <madodel0> | So nothing new in the Sundial stable in the immediate future? |
| <Randell> | A bit later we're going to test out something we may use more in future chats... but we'll get to that later. |
| <Randell> | madodel0, well... not much "new" that we haven't already talked about some... |
| <Randell> | We are continuing toward the release of ClikClok that we talked about in the last chat... |
| <Mok> | Define "ClikClok", please. |
| <Randell> | but it's not close enough to release to concentrate on tonight. |
| <Sector> | !ask clikclok |
| <VoiceBot> | [clikclok] For a preview of Sundial's latest project see http://www.sundialsystems.com/clikclok/clikclokpreview.html (madodel) |
| <Randell> | Mok, it's a "graphical clock of the world" type of program... and, yes, see the preview from last time (and the log of the last chat) for details. |
| <Randell> | We're also still working on the next major version of Relish... |
| <Randell> | We had a preview of that on a VOICE chat many months ago... |
| <crimso> | Relish? Great! |
| <Randell> | but it's also not yet to the point that we are ready to talk about the release in any detail. |
| <Randell> | We're also working on relatively minor update for JunkSpy and Mesa in the short term... |
| <Walter> | I plan my life around Relish. |
| <Randell> | those are essentially maintainence releases. |
| <Mok> | ...but you can't talk about those either? |
| <Walter> | Please tell me you'll fix that bug that's bugging me in JunkSpy. :-) |
| <Randell> | Mok... since they are mostly minor, internal changes, there's not much to talk about in any detail. |
| <Randell> | Longer term we'll also still working on possible future versions of Clearlook, DBExpert, and the Rover Pack... but we have not mapped out the detailed plans for any of those at this time. |
| <Randell> | The Relish release is the most significant one we are working on at the moment... |
| <Randell> | It's a relatively large, feature rich, enhancement. |
| <madodel0> | Any you can mention now? |
| <Randell> | The most interesting "big thing" in my mind is that it will support the Relish Net group calendaring features... |
| <Randell> | both "out of the box" (so to speak) and via TCP/IP connections... |
| <Randell> | So you could, for instance have a Relish Net server for a geographically distributed group of people. |
| <Randell> | And all they would need to connect to it would be normal internet connectivity. |
| <Mok> | Kinda like a VPN sorta thingy? |
| <Randell> | You still get all the benefits of "automatic" sync between your machine and the server... |
| <Randell> | And you have full access to your own info even when you aren't connected to the net. |
| <Randell> | Mok, kinda, but it doesn't need any VPN software since it uses our private protocol between the workstation and server software. |
| <Randell> | Theres also a new "sliding week" view that allows you to see "the next 7 days" rather than just a specific week. |
| <Randell> | And that view allows you some flexibility to do things like "the last n days plus the next m days". |
| <Walter> | That sounds like a very useful feature. |
| <Randell> | We've also make the idea of a "week" more flexible some of our worldwide customers in countries where the week starts on Monday rather than Sunday for instance. |
| <madodel0> | I remember someone asking about that at a Speakup with sundial a long time ago |
| <Randell> | And our Lookup views (that let you search for values) gain the ability to handle "or" conditions across fields and allow you to search the attached memos as well. |
| <Randell> | madodel0, yes, we take the comments we get from these Speakups (and other sources) seriously and try to factor them all into our product plans... |
| <Randell> | though we know we will never be able to address everyone's every desire. |
| <Sector> | That's ok, you do more then most |
| <Randell> | There's a bunch more stuff being added to Relish... but that will be the topic for some future Speakup when we are close to release. |
| <Randell> | So, back to questions... any specific questions, comments, requests (Sundial-related) out there? |
| <Sector> | Any plans to offer more then POP3 connectivity to JunkSpy (aol for example)ù |
| <Randell> | Rollin, you want to take that one? |
| <rollin> | AOL != POP3! |
| <rollin> | We're looking at issues around AOL and web based email services |
| * | Sector knows someone who would have purchased it if it had of worked with aol... |
| <rollin> | But nothing specific has been decided yet. |
| <rollin> | I know millions of AOL users who would like it, but the AOL protocol is very proprietary. |
| <Randell> | The main problem with AOL is that the don't publish their protocol. |
| <crimso> | Like Real... |
| <Randell> | crimso, yes. |
| <Randell> | Most of our JunkSpy users on the chat are probably aware of the issue... but, Rollin, why don't you comment a little about the current issue with the external detectors that Junk Spy uses. |
| <rollin> | There are external services that Junk Spy uses to add to it's own detection scheme. |
| <rollin> | One of them closed recently and the database was moved to a new organization orbl.org. |
| <rollin> | The other two are maintained by mail-abuse.org and have decided to require a contract with EVERYONE that is using their service. |
| <rollin> | As a result of the various changes we recently suggested that users disable all external detectors to keep their life simple. |
| <crimso> | You mean not only the vendors of software, but also the users? |
| <rollin> | We're working on a solution to allow all Junk Spy users to use RBL and RSS from mail-abuse.org without individually having to sign contracts. |
| <Randell> | crimso, yes. |
| <rollin> | Crimso, correct. It's mostly aimed at corporations using their lists, but it affects individuals too. |
| <rollin> | So, hopefully the dust will settle soon and in the end you'll have the same or better results from external detectors. |
| <Randell> | The good news is that Junk Spy still works great even without the external detectors turned on. |
| <Walter> | It also works a lot faster! |
| <rollin> | :) True. |
| <Randell> | Most Junk Spy detection is based on checking the content of the junk mail against our clue database... and the external detectors are mostly a "backup" to that. |
| <Walter> | I found those external services often really slowed down processing mail. |
| <Sector> | Works well without the external detectors |
| <rollin> | It turns out to vary sinificantly from DNS server to DNS server. We've done some tests and found them to add less thatn 1%. We've tested with others and seen 30% increase. |
| <Randell> | Walter, yes, that can happen... and as Rollin says it really depends on the DNS server provided by your ISP... |
| <Randell> | but we have a plan (not for the short term but later) that we feel will get around most of that as well. |
| <crimso> | Maybe you could persuade the database providers to give their IPs? |
| <Randell> | crismo, I'm not quite sure I understood that comment. |
| <rollin> | Crimso, we don't really want to be in the business of maintaining the databases. They change daily, and that's not the area we're interested in. That's why use other's resources. There are other lists too, if things don't work out with these. |
| <crimso> | Well, if the external database providers handed you/the user the IP, DNS would not be required. |
| * | Sector doesn't use the DNS server provided by the ISP... |
| <MADeCS> | Where do the these databases get their information? |
| <crimso> | Or would it? |
| <rollin> | MADeCS, it varies from list to list. One actively probes mail servers, another is a list of dial-up address, and a third is based on submitted input. |
| <Randell> | crimso, even if we had complete control of the database (which we don't want), the protocol used to access them today would still be dependent on your DNS. |
| <crimso> | Randell: I see. |
| <Randell> | MADeCS, the key, however, is that all of these lists are updated VERY dynamically. |
| <crimso> | rollin: Can you explain this a bit more in detail? |
| <rollin> | Which part? |
| <crimso> | I mean the "dialup address" and "actively probes mail servers". |
| <Sector> | Checking for open relay'sù |
| <rollin> | ORBL has a list of known mail servers. Periodically, they try to send a message though each server much the way a spammer might. If it works, they send a message to the administrator telling them their server is misconfigured. |
| <rollin> | The dial-up list checks for a special type of server-to-server connection that wouldn't normally happen fron a dial-up connection. Thus if it does happen, it is suspected as a spammer. |
| <Walter> | Do you find that spammers are getting more sophisticated in their methods? |
| <rollin> | Not as much as I had expected. A small percentage of them are, but still only a small percentage of what is possible. |
| <Walter> | That's good news. |
| <Sector> | Don't give them any ideas... |
| <rollin> | Spammers are generally lazy. |
| <Randell> | Wlater, the real issue is that more and more people/companies/etc are sending spam. |
| <Randell> | Thus the OVERALL sophistication is decreasing. |
| <crimso> | Walter: On the other hand it means that they are not afraid of the authorities. |
| <Randell> | So, overall it seems that it's actually becoming a bit easier for Junk Spy to catch larger amounts of spam... |
| <Randell> | since more and more spammers are doing things in very unsophisticated ways. |
| <Randell> | Other questions? |
| <crimso> | Hm, I think I heard that spamming was illegal in the US or at least some states. Don't they fear they get caught? |
| <rollin> | It's kind-of-sort-of illegal in some states, but I've seen very few news stories about enforcement. |
| <rollin> | Most of these guys are your average joe who bought some spamming software and have no idea about the big picture. |
| <Walter> | When I purchase software online, the vendor always asks for a certain amount of personal info--usually more than I would like to give, really. Regardless of the vendor's claims of treating my information confidentially, can I really be sure the info won't wind up on some spammer's list? |
| <Randell> | Walter, absolutely not! |
| <crimso> | Well, one should think that the vendors of spamming software should get into trouble at least. |
| <rollin> | It depends on who they are. We're actually starting to do some experiments to track if any of these big companies are the source of spam. |
| <Walter> | So what do I do--not buy anything online? |
| <crimso> | Yahoo is, definitely. |
| <Randell> | crimso, the definition of what is and isn't spam is still a bit gray legally... |
| <MADeCS> | A lot of the time I can't figure out what they are even trying to promote with spam. Does anyone actually respond to that junk? |
| <Randell> | Walter, no, it just like the issue of getting physical junk mail when you give our your physical address... you just have to accept it and use tools like Junk Spy to manage it. |
| <rollin> | MADeCS, you'd be suprised. There are enough ignorant users out there that don't know any better and go ahead and respond. Think your mother or grand mother. |
| <Randell> | MADeCS, yes, they do. It may only be a very small percentage... but when you are sending thousands of message virtually for free that small response is still more than worth the effort. |
| <Randell> | Another question? |
| <crimso> | Hm, your software is running too well here. :-) |
| <rollin> | Good! |
| <Randell> | crimso, Thank you! |
| <crimso> | Well, I'm the one who has to thank, since I won it all last December. |
| <crimso> | I couldn't do without Relish. |
| <Randell> | crimso, I think I can guess why, but why don't you tell us why that it? |
| <crimso> | I could say it kind of saved my life sometimes. |
| <Randell> | That's a strong statement! |
| <crimso> | As my brain is like a sieve sometimes, I tend to forget very important dates/mettings. |
| <crimso> | mettings=meetings |
| <Randell> | Have you tried other reminder programs in the past and Relish just works "better" for you... or is Relish your first try at using that type of product? |
| <crimso> | No, I tried about two before, Excal and something else I can't remember now. |
| <crimso> | I guess I would have bought Relish anyway. |
| <Randell> | Great! I'm glad to hear that Relish make a difference... others have told us that as well. |
| <Randell> | Now on to somethin a bit different... |
| <crimso> | Excal is also nice, but lacks some features and was quite unstable on my system. |
| <Randell> | Since I've started asking questions.... |
| <Randell> | We'd like to try out something we've been working on that we might you in future chats. |
| <Randell> | Think of it as an on-line survey tool that lets us capture answers dynamically and use them in the chat. |
| <Randell> | It' nothing sophisticated, but it provides a better way of doing things than trying to capture answers from the chat text. |
| <Randell> | This particular time we going to use it to ask you a few general questions about your use of OS/2 and other things... nothing specifically Sundial related. |
| <Randell> | Rollin, you have the details, correct? |
| <rollin> | Yes, the URL to go to is http://www.sundialsystems.com/voicesurvey.html |
| <rollin> | Once you've answered the survey you'll see the results. You can also check the results wihout voting at http://www.sundialsystems.com/cgi-bin/vviewsurvey.cmd |
| <rollin> | The idea is for everyone in the chat to be able to get immediate feedback about everyone else's responses. |
| <crimso> | Looks like I'm the first to finish it. 100% everywhere. |
| <Randell> | crimso, hit the Reload button on your browser to see the update results... we didn't include that automation in today's test. |
| <crimso> | Randell: ok, already done it. |
| <crimso> | 66% belong to another user grouop besides VOICE. That's interesting. |
| <rollin> | I'm surprised at the answers to the Netscape question. |
| <crimso> | Mozilla and Links here. |
| <Randell> | Rollin, I'm surprised about the Netscape one as well. |
| <crimso> | I guess you'd be surprised how many people still use Netscape 2.02. |
| <rollin> | Looks like everyone's had a chance to respond? |
| <rollin> | I know I do, I just didn't expect many others did. |
| <Randell> | For those of you that are members of other user groups, I'm curious if they are other OS/2-related groups (like SCOUG or POSSI) or non-OS/2 groups or both? |
| <crimso> | OS/2-related: Team OS/2 Ruhr in Germany. |
| <MADeCS> | I've been a mmber of POSSI for several years |
| <Walter> | POSSI, I think, :-) and local OS/2 user group |
| <Randell> | Overall, computer user groups are really struggling these days... but OS/2 groups seem still to be stronger than many others. That seems confirmed by this. |
| <Randell> | Are any of you a member of any non-OS/2 user group? |
| <crimso> | Depends on what you call a "user group"... |
| <Walter> | No, what would be the point. :-) |
| <Randell> | crimso, give me an example... |
| <Walter> | I'm an OS/2'er through and through. |
| <Randell> | As for the "always on" internet connection, I'm curious about the people that answered No... |
| <Walter> | On vacation probably. :-( Probably not the best date for a Speakup as it turns out. |
| <Randell> | Is it because no "always on" connection is available in your area or is it because you don't feel the need for it. |
| <crimso> | Well, I contacted German Telekom last year. They said "You can have DSL in February". A while later I received a letter telling me "February 2002". |
| <Walter> | I guess you need to add another question. "If no, ...." |
| <Randell> | Walter, like I said earlier, this was kind of an experiment... |
| <Sector> | Not available around here (as far as cable modems and DSL go anyways) |
| <Randell> | crimso, thanks! |
| <crimso> | But I'll soon get a glass fibre/radio connection to my university. They said it would be faster than DSL. :-) |
| <Walter> | Does your tool allow for more than "Yes" or "No" answers? |
| <Randell> | Walter, yes... we wanted to try this one with strict yes/no answers rather than multiple choice or other things. |
| <Walter> | Then this experiment should give you an idea of when the multiple choice would be particularly useful. |
| <rollin> | Well thank you guys for particpating in the survey. I think it was a success, and I think it provided a little material for discussion. |
| <Randell> | Walter, yep! That's one of the goals we had... along with seen how detailed we needed to make the questions... |
| <Randell> | The idea was to get a base to further the discussion. |
| <Randell> | "This has been a test of the Sundial Systems VOICE Chat Survey System... had this been an actual survey..." |
| <Randell> | As Rollin said, thanks for participating. |
| <Randell> | I think that about wraps it up for us for tonight! |
| <Randell> | I'm not sure at this point what the plan might be for our October chat since the date would normally be the Monday just before Warpstock... |
| <rollin> | If there are any lingering questions PLEASE email us. |
| <Walter> | OK, well thanks for stopping by and giving us a tantalizing taste of things to come. |
| <Randell> | and we might not be available that day... so we'll work that out as we get closer. |
| <Randell> | Walter, thanks for having us... it was a pleasure as usual. |
| <Sector> | The pleasure is ours |
| <rollin> | Have a good evening everyone! |
| <crimso> | Thanks for coming! |
| <Walter> | Thanks, and the same to you! |