General VOICE Meeting - 6 November 2004

No Agenda was available.

Summary - Decisions/Announcements Made
1. Roderick Klein will prepare a written proposal for the format of future meetings for discussion at the next meeting.
2. Next regularly scheduled meeting will held on the 20th of November.

Meeting Log
Chairman of the meeting Roderick Klein called the meeting to order at 15:08:29 EST
<eCSNL> This might a historic meeting if the people present agree with the proposal...
<eCSNL> First all this meeting did get announced
<eCSNL> so I don't know if this is the proper time then to put such a proposal on the table....
<eCSNL> Let me first say I hereby declare this unannounced meeting for opened...
<WalterOS2> Roderick.. Did or did not get announced?
<eCSNL> John could you please take a log?
<Gord> Is there an agenda?
<eCSNL> It did not get announced
<JWE> Logging is started.
<MADodel> What is an "unnouched meeting"?
<MADodel> :-)
* eCSNL would like to inform everybody he has been sleeping for 13 hours last night
<WalterOS2> or an "annouched agenda"?
<eCSNL> And I still feel as if a steam roller has driven over me...
<MADodel> Someone sleeps for 13 hours?
<eCSNL> Flat :-)
<eCSNL> And not much energy...
<eCSNL> So this meeting did not get announced
<Gord> We appreciate the effort you are putting in.
<eCSNL> for which I'm sorry.
<eCSNL> So what the proposal.
<eCSNL> Well basically it's simple.
<eCSNL> The idea is to stop having IRC business meetings for VOICE.
<eCSNL> So everybody will say, well what will happen to the VOICE IRC channel?
<eCSNL> Its going to a empty place with some bodies?
<eCSNL> Well here is my comment.
<eCSNL> I want to move the business meetings to mailing list to make discussion more flexible.
<eCSNL> We would need a web archive where everybody could read the archives (with E-mail address to stop E-mail address collectors)
<eCSNL> I mean E-mail addressees removed so E-mail address collectors can not collect E-mail address for databases.
<eCSNL> Look at the people that turn up on the business meetings. Even when announced it does not attract a lot of people besides the people who are here now.
<eCSNL> We always need have an agenda finished an announce the meeting.
<eCSNL> We can vote via E-mail and discuss items and put motions forward. And it would be at prefixed dates.
<eCSNL> In exchange I would like to have one monthly meeting just like SCOUG has on IRC for OS/2 users to ask questions.
<eCSNL> In general would do you people thing about this idea?
<eCSNL> Maybe we could make VOICE members more involved if the meetings would not be at specific moments
<eCSNL> but you could read on a mailing list and post responses.
<MADodel> My guess would be that pretty much the same people would be active
<Gord> You do have a point about low attendance, but I would miss the immediacy of an IRC meeting.
<Gord> On the other hand it means I would never miss a 'meeting'.
<eCSNL> There would be an admin, me (chairman) and that is to really keep the mailing list on topic
<Gord> That would also free up my Saturday afternoons.
<Gord> But it might also mean longer lead times needed to get anything at all decided.
<eCSNL> That's up the chairman to push things in a certain direction.
<Gord> Or maybe shorter lead times since we wouldn't have to wait for an IRC meeting to discuss something.
<eCSNL> To get something done now means officially waiting for 2 weeks until a meeting can take place.
<eCSNL> MaDodel?
<eCSNL> Ken?
<eCSNL> What's your view on this?
<Gord> How would one of us get something on the discussion list?
<Gord> Would we send to directly to you first?
<KenKrchnr> I'm here
<KenKrchnr> Hang on a sec -
<eCSNL> That's up to do decide...
<eCSNL> If its sensitive so how we can always discuss things on the admin list...
<eCSNL> admin list
<MADodel> We've had several mailing lists for years which have been completely unused. I'm not sure a new list would generate much traffic, but its worth trying.
<MADodel> What would be helpful would be if there were still an IRC meeting once a month or so that people could attend and VOICE any issues, as Gord pointed out.
<MADodel> And maybe have general discussion on a mailing list.
<MADodel> Part of the problem with meetings on IRC or a mailing list is that things happen and no one tells anyone.
<Gord> For example?
<MADodel> Though I suppose if all members are on the mailing list they would get to see any decisions
<MADodel> Gord: Example of what?
<Gord> Of something happening and us not being told.
<WalterOS2> One of my complaints about the mailing lists that we use is that a new subscriber, he cannot see any messages before he subscribes.
<WalterOS2> Of course it's even worse with IRC. :-)
<Gord> Good point.
<WalterOS2> Maybe there are ways around that.
<Gord> With IRC he can join in.
<eCSNL> Well that's why I suggested that such a mailing list has a web archive so people can view the archives
<WalterOS2> But he would still see nothing before that.
<eCSNL> and search them.
<Gord> With a mailing list we'd have to know he wanted in.
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: I've never seen one of those in operation.
<MADodel> Gord: lots of things fall through the cracks. When people change positions, nothing is ever announced. Things like the server move. Just run of the mill type things.
<Gord> And we have to discuss Norman antivirus.
<eCSNL> Well look at what yahoogroups does :-)
<eCSNL> That's what I mean with a web archive..
<WalterOS2> I would still like to see a forum. They are much less likely to let things fall between the cracks, IMO.
<WalterOS2> However, Mark has always been opposed to them.
<MADodel> The member list is supposed to be updated as soon as someone joins
<WalterOS2> :-)
* MADodel still hates forums, but uses them if there is no other option
<MADodel> With a forum you are forced to go to it to find out what is going on. Same with IRC but there is usually a set date/time to do so there is some motivation.
<MADodel> With forums I just forget to check them
<eCSNL> Me to...
* WalterOS2 wonders if MADodel needs some reminders.
<eCSNL> Two things...
<eCSNL> Mensys has done it in the past
<eCSNL> We build our own system to make mailing lists readable via a web browser
<eCSNL> and searchable
<eCSNL> And getting on and off the list is also not difficult.
<WalterOS2> Would we be able to run it from our server?
<eCSNL> Guess so :-)
* eCSNL starts making a price offer $$$$ :-)
<eCSNL> We would need to dig it up it are just some REXX scripts....
<eCSNL> And Walter what you mean with :
<eCSNL> The member list is supposed to be updated as soon as someone joins
<eCSNL> You mean if you would go to
<eCSNL> and fill in your E-mail address that the mailing list subscription list gets updated instantly?
<MADodel> I would advise you to create a new member list for something like this, and keep the original list just for member announcements.
<KenKrchnr> I agree with Mark
<eCSNL> Until about a month ago we had that running on
<eCSNL> But his has been broken because we migrate the mail server..
<KenKrchnr> We have that running on, but it doesn't get used. But that is just for Admin users.
<MADodel> The other issue with this is will it be members only allowed on the maillist/forum? Or will it be open to everyone?
<KenKrchnr> IRC meetings are open to all, I would guess this would be the same. But only members vote.
<JWE> If the list is to be used to conduct the business of VOICE, it should only be open to VOICE members only to participate in the "meeting".
<JWE> A read-only function could be available to others.
<eCSNL> Via the web...
<eCSNL> I guess we could continue to discuss good and bad sides of this idea?
<eCSNL> I see people against it/ in favour and people having doubts?
<eCSNL> Maybe we should vote on this item?
* eCSNL pulls the emergency brake
<MADodel> Why not write up a proposal with details about what you want this to be?
<eCSNL> Well I have described this. I can do this if you want but I don't have much to add.
<WalterOS2> For the record, I think Roderick's plan is a good idea, if we can find a way to make people use the mailing lists (or a forum).
<eCSNL> I pulled the emergency brake simply because the question should we vote on this not announced meeting...
<MADodel> You described a general idea, but without details on how it will actually work. Hence the questions about it.
<Gord> For instance, who will set it up?
<Gord> What address will be used?
<MADodel> Now you are getting into really fine details.
<MADodel> :-)\
<MADodel> That "\" key keeps getting in the way
<Gord> Actually we should have something like the old bulletin boards.
<Gord> without the long distance charges.
<MADodel> hehehehe. I saw that AdeptBBS was just put up on hobbes.
* WalterOS2 still thinks there is a lot to be said for using the forums we already have at
<WalterOS2> 1. There already set up.
<WalterOS2> 2. You get me as administrator. :-)
<WalterOS2> 3. We already have the software.
<WalterOS2> OTOH the software does have some bugs. :-(
<Gord> What is the software?
<WalterOS2> Ceilidh.
<WalterOS2> There is limited support (fixing bugs, etc.).
<WalterOS2> See .
<MADodel> Didn't we pay for a 5 forum license?
<WalterOS2> Yep.
<WalterOS2> Terry used it awhile back to help teach a C++ class over the internet.
<MADodel> If we have the professional version that is supposed to have E-mail posting and notification
<WalterOS2> Ceilidh is a Web-based threaded discussion engine that features automatic
<WalterOS2> text to HTML conversion, file attachment, E-mail notification and
<WalterOS2> automatic expiration capabilities.
<WalterOS2> I'm pretty sure we do have the professional version.
<WalterOS2> I'll have to check my E-mail database.
<MADodel> But it doesn't send out an actual E-mail for each posting does it?
<WalterOS2> You can ask for that, but there are several options.
<WalterOS2> It's been awhile since I've worked with it so I'd have to look it up to be sure of all of them.
<MADodel> That would be ideal if it could handle both web posting/reading and E-mail posting/reading
<MADodel> Then everyone would live happily ever after
<MADodel> :-)
<WalterOS2> It's web-based and does retain an "archive" to which any subscriber can access.
<WalterOS2> have access.
<WalterOS2> As I recall there was a question of how to interface its E-mail capabilities to our mail system.
<WalterOS2> I would probably give Ken Ceilidh's developer's address and let them work it out.
<WalterOS2> I'm pretty sure there's no serious problem, but we didn't get to the point of serious investigation.
<KenKrchnr> It was before my time, so I don't have much info on it :-)
<KenKrchnr> I just know I fixed some configuration issues when it got moved from voice1
<MADodel> Ken is always looking for things to do ;-)
<WalterOS2> I can find out from the developer if it supports weasel and/or majormajor.
* MADodel would guess the developer has no idea what weasel or MM are
<KenKrchnr> Walter said we get him as the administrator, you miss that Mark ;-)
<MADodel> hehehe you missed where Walter will put you in touch with the developer to get the E-mail stuff working. ;-) But yes I'm sure you appreciate one less day-to-day thing to do.
<WalterOS2> You get a partial list of some of the features:
<WalterOS2> I checked and ours is definitely a PROFESSIONAL licence.
<MADodel> Then E-mail should be feasible
<MADodel> With most forums though you only get an E-mail notification if someone replies to your own post.
<MADodel> Gotta go get ready for church. Sorry I have to go.
<eCSNL> I'm back now?
<Gord> Yes.
<eCSNL> My connection dropped..
<KenKrchnr> Looks like it :-)
<eCSNL> But Mozilla did not mention to me the connection
<eCSNL> was gone. So I thought I was all alone :-(
<eCSNL> So I understood I missed a lot...
<WalterOS2> Yep :-)
<Gord> On our bulletin board you wouldn't have missed anything. There I switched to ezirc. That client at least pings the IRC server you are connected to every minute or so and warns you when you are offline
<eCSNL> I don't really understand how you would miss anything with a mailing list?
<WalterOS2> ping walteros2
<Gord> Well you wouldn't but you might lose some of the pieces.
<Gord> On the forum all the contributions are there.
<Gord> And a mailing list has a 'over-quoting' problem.
<eCSNL> A yes people who quote an entire message
<eCSNL> and then type
<eCSNL> yes
<eCSNL> The thing I like about a mailing list is that its dropped in your mailbox!
<WalterOS2> It must be catching. I got dropped as well. :-(
<eCSNL> My attention is drawn to the folder in my mail client the moment a message comes in.
<WalterOS2> What were you guys talking about?
<Gord> Well, that's for you. Mine doesn't work that way.
<Gord> Walter, 'over-quoting' in E-mail.
<eCSNL> When a message comes in in pmmail
<WalterOS2> OK, thanks.
<eCSNL> Well that could be one the rules on the mailing list.
<eCSNL> If you over-quote and you get three warnings your are suspended from the list :-)
<WalterOS2> How much quoting is "over-quoting"?
<eCSNL> Its the same thing as on IRC. If you flood a channel with to much garbage some bots just filter your input...
<eCSNL> Well that is the admin receives complaints from people privately or in public from people asking if somebody could properly quote an E-mail.
<eCSNL> Ok in three weeks time there will be another IRC meeting I will write a proposal document
<eCSNL> with also clear rules for the mailing list and then see if you people approve it.
<eCSNL> I'm personally in favour of such a mailing list.
<eCSNL> But if somebody wants a forum write a proposal on that.
<eCSNL> Who puts up, that is a second matter.
<WalterOS2> Obviously :-)
<eCSNL> But I'm certain Mensys can assist Ken in that.
<eCSNL> If he needs help.
<eCSNL> If people are in favour of a different kind of business meetings
<eCSNL> then next meeting we will vote on this
<eCSNL> and if there is more then proposal in
<eCSNL> (for lets say a web forum)
<WalterOS2> eCSNL You missed the part when even Mark was becoming enthusiastic about the Ceilidh forum software we now have.
<eCSNL> We can vote on web forum or E-mail.
<WalterOS2> Take a look at
<eCSNL> Yes I have seen that....
<WalterOS2> All I'm saying is that I don't think we need Mensys to build us a forum, if we decide to go that way.
<eCSNL> I will like to wrap up this discussion on this topic
<eCSNL> and we will see at the next meeting
<eCSNL> I will write my proposal
<eCSNL> for a mailing list
<eCSNL> people who want a different system like a web forum write your proposal and put it on a website somewhere for the next meeting
<eCSNL> so everybody can read it.
<eCSNL> That way everybody present at the next announced meeting can read it.
<eCSNL> If there is still discussion what system we want we will just vote on it.
<Gord> I move we adjourn.
<WalterOS2> 2nd
<Gord> All in favor?
<Gord> Aye.
<WalterOS2> Aye
<KenKrchnr> Aye
<JWE> Aye
<Gord> All opposed?
<Gord> Carried.
<Gord> Meeting adjourned.
Meeting adjourned 6 November 2004 at 16:46:57 EST