VOICE - General Meeting for 2003-11-15
12:07:54 <WalterOS2> This meeting of VOICE is now in session.
* WalterOS2 is only late when eCSNL comes. :-)
<WalterOS2> Hello Gord
<wdl> Hi Gord!
<WalterOS2> Hi everyone else.
<Gord> HI, wdl
* WalterOS2 is trying to print the agenda.
<WalterOS2> Walter's printer is being uncooperative at the moment.
<WalterOS2> I turned off BIDI and disabled the spooler.
<WalterOS2> It's printing now, but oh so sloowly!
<WalterOS2> I think my new colour laser may have to returned for a replacement. :-(
<WalterOS2> OK, we can begin at last.
<WalterOS2> Agenda Item A. Old Business
<WalterOS2> 1. Add my name to Help Desk.
<WalterOS2> That's done as of lunch time ET.
<WalterOS2> Incidentally, Roderick, I think your idea to put the help information on another page under
<WalterOS2> another page, perhaps "Help Desk" is a good one.
<eCSNL> Otherwhise the main page becomes a mess...
<WalterOS2> Any other comments?
<eCSNL> Put a link there to the timezone conerverter that is also
<eCSNL> in the voice
<KenKrchnr> I agree with both those suggestions.
<eCSNL> of the meetings...
<eCSNL> I don't want to be called by somebody in California when its 18:00 in California :-)
<eCSNL> BTW a status report so far I have received 0 calls that got in via the VOICE line....
<WalterOS2> There already is.
<WalterOS2> a link to the TimeZone site in the meeting announcements.
<WalterOS2> I'm not sure Jeremy will have much time for VOICE for awhile. He's gotten back to his first love--music.
<WalterOS2> First in chronology, I mean.
<WalterOS2> Ken, would you have the time to modify the website so that the help announcements are located else?
<KenKrchnr> Yes, where would you like them to go?
<WalterOS2> I'm still not sure of the best place to put them, but wherever we put them, let's be sure to keep a link on the front page.
* WalterOS2 looks over the "Help Desk"
<KenKrchnr> Help Desk looks like a prime candidate.
<WalterOS2> Perhaps another page off the main Help Desk page, with a link to it in the first paragraph. How does that sound to everyone?
<WalterOS2> It doesn't seem to me to fit anywhere on the main page.
<eCSNL> No put it on the main page of help desk....
<eCSNL> Otherwhise people will not click on....
<eCSNL> People are lazy don't forget that :-)
<WalterOS2> Well, NOBODY, has called you yet?
<WalterOS2> What's the point of this service if no one uses it?
<WalterOS2> Anyway, where would you like to put it?
<eCSNL> When I goto
<WalterOS2> Perhaps I misunderstood what you were trying to say.
<eCSNL> and click on "help desk"
<eCSNL> My first suggestion is to scrap all of does old tips about win32s etc...
<eCSNL> And create some space there...
<eCSNL> And place the table there...
<WalterOS2> How many people even access the Help Desk now, I wonder. I have the feeling that not used a lot.
<eCSNL> Maybe because the first view you bump into gives a kind of old impression...
<eCSNL> Coming here...
<eCSNL> Help for Warp 3 & 4 warp
<WalterOS2> First you have to click, then view. I'm just not sure very many click on the "Help Desk" link.
<eCSNL> move it to a different section...
<eCSNL> We keep no track of that
<eCSNL> Oke question for the web department...
<eCSNL> Could we get counts how many people on average a month or week or day
<eCSNL> click on that help desk link
<WalterOS2> Ken: does your tracking utility tell us how many people click on the "Help Desk" now?
<eCSNL> or are there no server logs ?
<KenKrchnr> I only have Warpdoctor, VOICE is still on voice1.
<eCSNL> And if that is not possible I would also suggest that some things are in need of serious update...
<eCSNL> That might also keep people from looking around futher...
<KenKrchnr> There are logs, but I know Mark was having trouble with them.
<eCSNL> Start chopping some dead links, thats extremely bad publicity...
<WalterOS2> A major update of the website is something Jeremy's working on, so I don't think this is the place to start rewriting or redesigning large chunks of it. :-)
<WalterOS2> Either chop or update, yes.
<eCSNL> Oke this is outside the voice webpage
<eCSNL> Can the mirror page be removed ?
<eCSNL> It points to an IBM fora last updated in 2002
<WalterOS2> But I think we should steer clear of throwing things out. Not everyone is using eCS 1.13 with the latest kernel.
<eCSNL> Thats not why I placed that remark...
<eCSNL> but the first you get when you click on the help desk page is infor on a 8 speed Creative CD ROM player...
<wdl> NOT everone is using eCS - any version!!!
<eCSNL> That stuf belongs more
<eCSNL> in warpdoctor and not the main page of the help desk section...
<eCSNL> Helpdesk page should be your start for searching the links to information and not listing info there...
<KenKrchnr> (on Warpdoctor, the most accessed files are the Warp 4 boot disks. The disks on there aren't the newest :-) )
<WalterOS2> wdl: True enough. However, eCSNL is on the eCS development team, which is why I worded it the way I did.
<eCSNL> What I mean to say is that that long lis of help should be there, it does in my opion not fit in the structure of the website...
<eCSNL> Thats all has nothing todo with eCS
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: If you want the task of removing or updating all the links on the web site, then it's yours.
<eCSNL> Well I don't have access to the server...
<WalterOS2> However, I don't think we should throw stuff out, because we don't know who might be using it.
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: That could change. :-)
<eCSNL> Walter I mean MOVE it...
<WalterOS2> However, before you start doing that, we need to bring VOICE2 online as the main server.
<eCSNL> The information...
<WalterOS2> I'm sorry: MOVE what?
<eCSNL> The content of that help desk pages belongs in my humble opion in WarpDoctor
<eCSNL> And the help desk should for instance list
<eCSNL> * Phone support (link to phone numbers etc)
<eCSNL> * Mailing lists
<eCSNL> * newsgroups
<eCSNL> That helpdesk page in my opion should have links to short pages where you can go...
<WalterOS2> So should we leave things as they are until we rearrange the HELP desk / pages?
<eCSNL> Well I don't know when the plan to restructure the pages...
<eCSNL> when the plan is to restructure the pages...
<eCSNL> If its still going to take 6 months or so (which I can understand since it volenteer work)
<eCSNL> then I would say redo the pages...
<WalterOS2> I guess what I'm wondering is that this whole discussion begain with the simple query about where to move the 2 Volunteers information. Now you want to rearrange both sites.
<WalterOS2> That's not a bad thing, necessarily.
<WalterOS2> But do you want it to be all or nothing?
<WalterOS2> My idea is something like this:
<WalterOS2> 1. Put the help phone numbers in a better place (I'm not too fussy about where.)
<WalterOS2> 2. Change to the new server.
<WalterOS2> 3. Rearrange the Help Desk information and/or do the major redesign of os2voice.org.
<eCSNL> Fine with me...
* PsiFire has returned. .gz.
<WalterOS2> OK, let's have Ken put the information about the telephones on a new page, I don't care what we call it--it's only temporary anyway, and put a link to it on the main page.
<KenKrchnr> Sounds like a plan
<eCSNL> One final question on this topic what is holding up the move to the new server ?
<WalterOS2> That's the next topic.
<WalterOS2> OK, Ken--please move the phone information as I laid it out above. :-)
<KenKrchnr> I'll take care of that either tonite or tomorrow.
<WalterOS2> Thanks a lot!
<WalterOS2> OK, let's move on.
<wdl> ---- I need to get this in:
<wdl> ---- I'll be gone (totally unavailable) Friday, Nov 21 2003. through Monday, Dec 15 2003, inclusive. Hence not logging either VOICE or WarpDoctor.
<WalterOS2> Old Business: Item 2: Move to VOICE2
<WalterOS2> OK, I'll take the log and give it to Ken.
<WalterOS2> Thanks for letting us know.
<WalterOS2> OK, Ken, what about the Server move? What is left to do?
<WalterOS2> Did you get the information from Mark and Christian?
<KenKrchnr> As far as I know everthing is ready, I just need some people to test their sections.
<KenKrchnr> I got that info, I beleive I have all that setup, but I need them to test. I was hoping Mark would be here today.
<WalterOS2> I could have asked him specifically to be here, if I'd known he was needed. :-(
<WalterOS2> Though Sat afternoon isn't a good time for him.
<KenKrchnr> I set up the mail temporarily as warpdoctor.org, so I need people to use their existing os2voice.org accounts on warpdoctor.org to be sure all is OK.
<WalterOS2> Existing os2voice.org accounts on warpdoctor.org? Please explain.
<KenKrchnr> I have put the cgi scripts the translators use on voice2, but they need to be tested. I can't do that.
<WalterOS2> The best thing would be to email them asking them to run the tests; they'll need to know what tests you want them to run.
<WalterOS2> Do you have their email addresses?
<KenKrchnr> I made the mail server respond as warpdoctor.org while we test. Any mailboxes, lists and/or redirects should be the same as any existing user os2voice account.
<WalterOS2> OK, what about the VOICE NEWS mailing list?
<KenKrchnr> So, for instance, if Walter logs on to mail.warpdoctor.org, you should see the same mailbox and info as if you had logged into mail.os2voice.org.
<WalterOS2> That's a huge one.
<KenKrchnr> All mail lists should work the same as on voice1.
<WalterOS2> What do I have to put in my hosts file?
<KenKrchnr> To test the mail you don't need to change anything, just log into mail.warpdoctor.org instead of mail.os2voice.org.
<KenKrchnr> That goes fo anyone with an existing account on voice1.
<KenKrchnr> Once we have that tested, we can move the next service to voice2.
<WalterOS2> So far as I can tell that's Peter, Bill, and Mark.
<wdl> I just tried that. No place to access anything; no place for password, etc. Says "Encrypted Pages..."
* PsiFire has set away! (auto away after idling [15 min]) [Log:ON] .gz.
<KenKrchnr> I'll email Mark and Christian to see if they can test their end for the newsletter. They'll need to change their hosts file to do that check.
<KenKrchnr> Bill, what were you trying to log into?
<KenKrchnr> Ahhh, you need a mail client and do a pop3 logon.
<wdl> How to do that via Mozilla mail client???
<KenKrchnr> Set the incoming mail address as "mail.warpdoctor.org"
<KenKrchnr> Then your username and password.
<wdl> Where (in which file) do I put that?
<KenKrchnr> That's in settings for the mail/news.
<KenKrchnr> So open the mail/news window, then pick "edit" - "mail/newsgroup settings" (or something like that)
<wdl> Hmmm. Don't see where... Not looking in the right place?
<KenKrchnr> Did you open the Mail/newsgroups window?
<KenKrchnr> (In Mozilla, click "Window" - "Mail and Newsgroups"
<KenKrchnr> I have a question for Roderick, do I have to call with it? ;-)
<eCSNL> I think you also send me an email
<eCSNL> from Warpstock about wanting to be on the
<eCSNL> phone support project ?
<KenKrchnr> Have you heard of any problem with Apache 2.0 with eCS 1.1 tcpip stack? Specifically sockets hung in FIN_WAIT_2
<KenKrchnr> We're getting a lot of them. I had to reboot voice2 (77 days run time) to clear 2500 hung sockets.
<WalterOS2> I tried logging on to mail.warpdoctor.org, but it wants a password. I never use that account--didn't even know it was there until today. So I have *no* clue what the password is. :-(
<wdl> Ken: re "Did you open the Mail/newsgroups window?" - Yes, filled various blanks; still doesn't work right???
<KenKrchnr> It's the same as your os2voice.org password.
<wdl> Ken: Maybe we should try something after this meeting?
<WalterOS2> Ken: Have you looked at the FTP tuning stuff on eCS Disk 2? I'm told it's pretty good.
<KenKrchnr> Bill, did you set the server field? What error did you see?
<KenKrchnr> Oh yeah, what account are you logging in to?
<KenKrchnr> Walter, yes, I ran that stuff.
<WalterOS2> Ken: I used that password: no joy.
<KenKrchnr> Walter, which account are you trying?
<WalterOS2> We should probably deal with this after the meeting.
<KenKrchnr> Sounds good.
<WalterOS2> OK, let's move on to
<WalterOS2> B. New Business
<WalterOS2> I'm going to move Item 4 up to the top.
<WalterOS2> Roderick, take it away.
<WalterOS2> Item 4: Offer of Articles in FreeX
<WalterOS2> Is he still here?
<eCSNL> For the people who don't know what FreeX is
<eCSNL> Its a German computer magazine
<eCSNL> that is published in Germany
<eCSNL> and the Swiss part of Switserland where German is spoken
<eCSNL> about 90.000.000 or so in total...
<eCSNL> Now VOICE wants to promote OS/2 and eComStation
<eCSNL> Would it not be wonderfull if we can get again OS/2 in a printed magazine ?
<eCSNL> And it will not cost us one cent...
<eCSNL> Rosa Riebl from FreeX
<eCSNL> drops by at all European Warpstocks and
<eCSNL> she was at WarpWeekend...
<eCSNL> She finds me a complete OS/2 zealot
<eCSNL> and in an email she mentioned
<eCSNL> a new name for me
<eCSNL> Roderick van Warp...
<eCSNL> Well I said nice name for column...
<eCSNL> She said that actualy here magazine would be interested in such a column...
<eCSNL> Oke the offer stands...
<eCSNL> FreeX is published every 2 months
<eCSNL> and its not required...
<eCSNL> But she wants to publish OS/2 articles
<eCSNL> We can go as far as 4 to 5 pages...
<eCSNL> A review written by Adriaan Geschwend about eCS 1.1 German was published...
<WalterOS2> What's a page? VBG
<eCSNL> A 4 paper
<eCSNL> A4 paper size I mean...
<eCSNL> Well its not a strange question :-)
<eCSNL> Now we don't have to send here a column every 2 months
<eCSNL> however it would be cool if we
<eCSNL> every 2 months...
<eCSNL> If you have a flow of articles that would create some attension
<eCSNL> not if you only publish 1 or 2 times a year...
<eCSNL> I can not commit to this...
<eCSNL> I'm to busy :-)
<eCSNL> I thought of the following sollution...
<eCSNL> VOICE is publized every month
<WalterOS2> Do they offer translation services?
<eCSNL> And translated into German....
<eCSNL> The idea was we could use articles
<WalterOS2> Right, I forgot for a moment.
<eCSNL> from VOICE in FreeX
<eCSNL> Especialy since the are willing to place articles every issue
<eCSNL> (I'm very pleased with this operutnity!)
<WalterOS2> What about their copyright policies?
<eCSNL> We can not make demands I'm afraid...
<eCSNL> Well let me get to the small detail now...
<eCSNL> They only demand that
<eCSNL> the articles for the time FreeX is on the news stand (which is 2 months)
<eCSNL> are not publicezed on the internet....
<eCSNL> So where is difficult point...
<eCSNL> A commercial magazine is printing
<eCSNL> OS/2 articles and wants to have an exclusive right to them
<eCSNL> until the issue of Free X goes of the newstand...
<eCSNL> Something that I can understand
<eCSNL> Copyright issue I have not spoken about yet
<eCSNL> Its a take it or leave or deal...
<WalterOS2> But articles from VNL will be on the Internet by the time FreeX gets them.
<eCSNL> Thats the problem
<WalterOS2> "exclusive right" is a copyright issue.
<Rat-Salad> I didn't miss this
<WalterOS2> Your band let out early?
<eCSNL> Somebody needs to select the articles before they are made public in the voice news letter
<eCSNL> and send them off to Free X
<Rat-Salad> a tad bit... usually practice from noon till 5
* Rat-Salad is worn out
<eCSNL> They can then be made public after FreeX is of the news stand after 2 months...
<eCSNL> The copyright issue we would need to look into to...
<eCSNL> But if VOICE wants to promote OS/2 and a editor of an interesting article is interested in OS/2 to promote it...
<eCSNL> This is our change in my opion..
<eCSNL> In my opion we should be very flexible towards FreeX...
<eCSNL> Most computer magazines are not that OS/2 friendly...
<eCSNL> It would be great if OS/2 can be mentioned every 2 months in a computer magazine
<eCSNL> Instead of just *only * on the internet....
<WalterOS2> That's really Christian's department, since he edits the German edition of VNL, but I'm involved just enough that I can't think of anyway that's going happen. It's up to the editors (Christian and Mark), of course.
<eCSNL> So you think this will not work ?
<WalterOS2> But we (writers and translaters) would have to produce an article two months before it gets published in VNL.
<eCSNL> No before VNL is published you look what could goto FreeX
<eCSNL> and what not
<WalterOS2> It's theoretically possible, but the translation and publishing teams are so busy already....
<eCSNL> I must admit its not nice to give them exclusive rights for 2 months... But heck if you want to reach new users (which VOICE wants) then I see this as a golden opertunity....
<eCSNL> For the rest I rest my case
<eCSNL> The offer stands
<eCSNL> and let me know if people have questions
<eCSNL> or want to get in contact with Rosa Riebl...
<WalterOS2> I'm not even taking about rights, now. I'm just think of the timing.
<WalterOS2> Before we can discuss this further, we need to either have Mark and Christian here in a meeting (that would be ideal), or at least do some correspondance by email.
<eCSNL> Well the can receive the IRC log...
<eCSNL> So most details are know...
<WalterOS2> The rights issue is to some extent up to the author of each article.
<eCSNL> Thats right...
<WalterOS2> VOICE by default has the rights to every article, but I hold the rights to mine.
<WalterOS2> I got badly burned once. :-(
<eCSNL> Well let me know what people think about it later by mail
<eCSNL> But I urge people think twice before saying no!
<eCSNL> This is what VOICE wants
<eCSNL> Reach new users....
<WalterOS2> OK, I'll send an email to Mark, Christian with a copy to you. Then we can hash it around.
<wdl> What about "exclusive rights" to the GERMAN LANGUAGE version - of ENGLISH Language material on the Web?
<wdl> My wife's had experience with similar issues, and sometimes that sort of thing can be OK.
<eCSNL> Well the German version of os2voice contains a translation of the English version
<eCSNL> So I gues it would
<WalterOS2> Well, don't forget that if I write an article, it gets translated into German anyway.
<eCSNL> count for English articles as well...
<wdl> Or even co-publication - in the two languages?
<WalterOS2> For example, if I write....
<WalterOS2> That wouldn't work, because they are publishing before VNL. I don't think copublishing is the right herm
<eCSNL> Well lets discuss that later...
<eCSNL> It was the first offer...
<WalterOS2> I'm sure something could be worked out about that.
<eCSNL> And maybe the right people need to talk to Rosa Riebl
<eCSNL> I'm just the messenger...
<eCSNL> But I again say I think this is wonderfull opertunity for VOICE that this could be made possible!
<WalterOS2> How is she on the Internet?
<eCSNL> You mean email adress ?
<WalterOS2> Would a chat be possible?
<eCSNL> Don't know
<eCSNL> I think you need to communicate via email...
<WalterOS2> How's her English? Better than my German, I hope. :-)
<eCSNL> Here English is perfect!
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: email makes sense.
<eCSNL> Man you don't want to see me write a German email...
<eCSNL> Otherwhise I could not have invited here for WarpWeekend...
<WalterOS2> Who actually posts these logs to the VOICE site?
<KenKrchnr> I do
<WalterOS2> I forget if it's Ken or Bill. :-(
<WalterOS2> Hi Ken
<WalterOS2> Could you drop me a note after this log is posted?
<WalterOS2> Then I'll email Mark and Christian.
<WalterOS2> Thanks. :-)
<eCSNL> Walter I will send you the email adres of Rosa Riebl
<WalterOS2> OK, thanks.
<eCSNL> I will not mention it in the logs
<eCSNL> (extra source for spammers)
<KenKrchnr> It would get stripped anyway.
<WalterOS2> See, we know what we're doing too. VBG
<WalterOS2> I would like to see all SPAMMERS hanged, drawn, and quartered!!
<WalterOS2> I'm afraid they'll destroy the 'net.
<eCSNL> Well my manlyhood can be increased every day
<eCSNL> I could made millions of dollars with business deals from Nigeria
<eCSNL> And my viagria subscription is ready for pickup every hour or so
<WalterOS2> I know.
<WalterOS2> OK, I guess that covers the agenda, since Doug and Peter aren't here.
<WalterOS2> Is there any OTHER BUSINESS?
<WalterOS2> Anyone have anything on their mind relating to eCS/OS2
<eCSNL> How can VOICE
<eCSNL> push OS/2 users again harder to contribute to some beta testing
<eCSNL> of OS/2 applications /drivers...
<wdl> Re eCS install, oh MY Yes! But this's not the right place. ;-)
<eCSNL> Its still the same old tune...
<eCSNL> Some developers/ projects end because of
<eCSNL> lack of feedback....
<eCSNL> An issue that is slightly related to this....
<eCSNL> Where if you want information about OS/2 do you go....
<eCSNL> Well if you goto google and search for
<eCSNL> you get teamos2.org
<eCSNL> both are dead websites
<eCSNL> the good news is that I'm in touch with BMT Micro
<wdl> eCSNL: Sometimes the developers can be intimidating, when the ordinary user - trying to help - doen's know quite what's wanted. Or how to phrase his/her comments.
<eCSNL> I know its difficult :-)
<eCSNL> But my conclusion is...
<wdl> Uh. "doen's" - doesn't
<eCSNL> Users like OS/2...
<eCSNL> I gues we should be gratefull to developers... I know it sounds very harsh
<eCSNL> it varies with every case
<eCSNL> But in genereal be gentle with developers...
<eCSNL> There realy importanted...
<eCSNL> But in genereal end users are dead silent!
<eCSNL> The biggest problem is
<eCSNL> No feedback
<WalterOS2> Reminding is good.
<eCSNL> then developers and/or end users end up in a fight because of a dispute...
<eCSNL> And I know the views of developer
<WalterOS2> It's also very important to register your shareware.
<eCSNL> can conflict with
<wdl> Some of us are not. But some of the "big boy" developers are, uh... pretty impatient with the "little guy" users.
<eCSNL> end user...
<eCSNL> Well OS/2 developers like
<eCSNL> for instance Chriss Wolgemuth
<wdl> I've had very little trouble. But others I know have given up trying to help. It's a 2-way street...
<WalterOS2> eCSNL: Why don't you write an article in FreeX or VNL?
<eCSNL> Because I'm more then overloaded
<eCSNL> BTW he is rotten example of free developer that had enough
<WalterOS2> It's getting late.
<WalterOS2> Anyone want to move we adjourn?
<WalterOS2> All in favour of adjourning this meeting, type Aye.
<WalterOS2> All opposed type Nay.
14:22:19 <WalterOS2> Motion is carried, meeting is adjourned.