11-19-97 18:58:18 <VoiceBot> [voice] Virtual OS/2 International Consumer Education (mandie)
11-19-97 20:16:48 <MADodel> Timur Tabi and Peter Fitzsimmons will be speaking on the Win32-OS/2 project
11-19-97 20:17:15 <MADodel> Please direct questions to Abraxas or MADodel
11-19-97 20:17:52 <MADodel> The moderators will give voice to the questioners
11-19-97 20:18:06 <MADodel> Welcome everyone to WEBBnet
11-19-97 20:18:45 <MADodel> Timur you are op'd you can speak
11-19-97 20:20:32 <Abraxas> Timur: what client are you using?
11-19-97 20:20:39 <VoiceBot> [win32-os/2.project] For a description and current status - http://www.io.com/~timur/win32os2.html (MADodel)
11-19-97 20:20:42 <TimurTabi> ok, I'd like to make a few statements before we get into questions
11-19-97 20:21:04 <TimurTabi> first, the web page has been updated - we can know convert small MFC applications
11-19-97 20:21:53 <TimurTabi> know => now I mean. Next on the list is comctl32.dll, which is a DLL that is used by almost every major Win95 app
11-19-97 20:22:06 <TimurTabi> once that's converted, there should be a significant number of new apps that can be converted.
11-19-97 20:22:43 <TimurTabi> second, I'd like to introduce pfitz (Peter Fitzsimmons), who is also on the team.
11-19-97 20:22:55 <TimurTabi> I think he should be op'ed as well
11-19-97 20:23:09 <pfitz> howdy
11-19-97 20:23:22 <TimurTabi> third, my role in this project is little more than the web page maintainer and warpstock speaker.
11-19-97 20:23:38 <TimurTabi> calling myself the "spokesmodel" was perhaps a bit pretentious :-)
11-19-97 20:23:54 <MADodel> Timur You pretentious?
11-19-97 20:24:23 <os2hq> Timur: marketing rules!
11-19-97 20:24:23 <TimurTabi> the person doing all the real work is Sander Van Leeuven (sp?)
11-19-97 20:24:24 <pfitz> TimurTabi: did you update who-does-what according to sander's note?
11-19-97 20:24:30 <TimurTabi> pfitz: no, I didn't - I couldn't find that note in time
11-19-97 20:24:41 <DynoMutt> Question: Is there currently a list of successfully converted Windows apps?
11-19-97 20:25:08 <TimurTabi> no, there is no list really
11-19-97 20:25:25 <pfitz> the type of apps we have working are
11-19-97 20:25:49 <pfitz> some of the ones that come with NT 4.0 -- Solitair, Freecell, Notepad.
11-19-97 20:25:49 <TimurTabi> the number of apps we can convert is so small that we haven't tried to make a list
11-19-97 20:26:23 <MADodel> I'm being inundated with questions can folks hold off til Timur is ready
11-19-97 20:26:24 <TimurTabi> we have not put into place a procedure where we can test several apps.
11-19-97 20:26:30 <TimurTabi> until we do, I hesitate to provide a list.
11-19-97 20:26:52 <TimurTabi> I'm ready for question, now.
11-19-97 20:27:44 <pfitz> We also have a few stdin/stdout (non-colsole command line) apps working.
11-19-97 20:28:07 <GamerX> Question: Does Open32 help in the conversion of Win32 applications?
11-19-97 20:28:30 <TimurTabi> it doesn't help in the _conversion_ of the app
11-19-97 20:28:37 <TimurTabi> but it is NECESSARY to run the converted app
11-19-97 20:28:54 <GamerX> Becuase of the Win32 functions it emulates?
11-19-97 20:29:15 <TimurTabi> yes - so the more API's are in Open32, the more apps we can run
11-19-97 20:29:27 <MADodel> nando2 go ahead with your question
11-19-97 20:29:47 <pfitz> there are 100's of win32 api's that we simply "redirect" to pmwinx.dll (the open32 dll)
11-19-97 20:29:50 <nando2> my #1 question: is there a working converted 'Wordpad' for os/2? (I ask because it uses MFCnnn.DLL = microsoft foundation classes)
11-19-97 20:30:09 * pfitz doesn't know about wordpad
11-19-97 20:30:15 <TimurTabi> pfitz can answer that for certain, but last I checked, wordpad was not working
11-19-97 20:30:37 <pfitz> TimurTabi: I don't know either.
11-19-97 20:30:46 <MADodel> moderator note: tandie will also be taking questions.
11-19-97 20:30:48 <nando2> ok :)
11-19-97 20:31:25 <tandie> please direct your questions to either Madodel or myself, and we will voice you to ask your questions as soon as possible
11-19-97 20:31:25 <pfitz> nando2: isn't msvcrt.dll MFC?
11-19-97 20:31:27 <TimurTabi> again, the biggest stopping block at this point is comctl32.dll - which handles all the cool controls like toolbars and stuff
11-19-97 20:31:38 <TheSeer> One question only..: Is there or will there be a support for ATM-Fonts.. I know ATM is an "extra" produkt for Windows...
11-19-97 20:32:04 <TimurTabi> I'm confused by that questions, OS/2 already supports ATM fonts, doesn't it?
11-19-97 20:32:08 <pfitz> TheSeer: yes
11-19-97 20:32:25 <Terrulen> Can we then assume that the new Open32 APIs in FixPack 3SE and Fixpack 5 will open even more apps for conversion, or speed up your work?
11-19-97 20:32:30 <nando2> pfitz: it's mfc42.dll 941,840 bytes :)
11-19-97 20:32:44 <TimurTabi> terrulen: yes, it will
11-19-97 20:32:55 <TimurTabi> however, we still don't have a list yet from Lotus or IBM what those 50 new API's are
11-19-97 20:33:10 <nando2> pfitz (sounds like a LOT of work ;)
11-19-97 20:33:29 <pfitz> can someone send me the pmwinx.dll from FP3SE?
11-19-97 20:34:24 <pfitz> Terrulen: thanks
11-19-97 20:34:26 <Abraxas> Timur (re: ATM) The Seer just wonderd since some Windoze-Apps can't work with
11-19-97 20:34:26 <Abraxas> the ATM.. and ATM is not "natively" included into windūūČave written open32 apps; they can use ATM fonts. So our converted apps can too.
11-19-97 20:35:12 <Sleekit> (Looking further into the future here, but) Will running Win32 programs increase system overhead? If I'm running OS/2 in an ISP, and I need to run a Win32 (perish the thought), will I have to be concerned about slowdowns?
11-19-97 20:35:18 <MADodel> Go ahead Sleekit
11-19-97 20:35:31 <Sleekit> Thank you, MADodel.
11-19-97 20:35:41 <TimurTabi> well, the converted apps are just like normal OS/2 apps that use Open32
11-19-97 20:35:48 <TimurTabi> just like SmartSuite
11-19-97 20:36:01 <pfitz> Sleekit: the first open32 app you run starts a small background process
11-19-97 20:36:09 <Sleekit> So, no massive drain on memory?
11-19-97 20:36:09 <TimurTabi> so there's the overhead of loading a couple large DLL's into memory, but other than that, there is no performance hit
11-19-97 20:36:26 <pfitz> Sleekit: for the registry.
11-19-97 20:36:26 <Sleekit> Wonderful. Thank you.
11-19-97 20:36:31 <TimurTabi> look at the size of pmwinx.dll - that will be how much additional space you need
11-19-97 20:37:04 <GamerX> Do you know if or when some samples applications will be made available, like solitaire ported from NT 4.0?
11-19-97 20:37:04 <MADodel> Go ahead GamerX
11-19-97 20:37:17 <pfitz> timtim: i'd like to take that
11-19-97 20:37:18 <TimurTabi> we are NEVER going to make any converted apps available
11-19-97 20:37:22 <TimurTabi> that is a copyright violation
11-19-97 20:37:29 <pfitz> right
11-19-97 20:37:49 <GamerX> How about freeware with source code applications?
11-19-97 20:37:58 <GamerX> Such as those covered by the GNU copyleft?
11-19-97 20:38:00 <MADodel> Just the tool to convert them then?
11-19-97 20:38:03 <TimurTabi> well, perhaps, but I see little point in that
11-19-97 20:38:21 <pfitz> GamerX: that's an idea
11-19-97 20:38:21 <TimurTabi> yes, we'll only provide the tool to convert them. How you use that tool is your business
11-19-97 20:38:22 <TimurTabi> keep in mind,
11-19-97 20:38:54 <TimurTabi> that some licenses prohibit you from running your app under non-MS operating systems
11-19-97 20:39:29 <WrightC> Timur or Pfitz, I'm curious as to how these tools would actually help a large Win32 application be installed... does it convert the installation program 'on the fly'?
11-19-97 20:39:59 <WrightC> Or would we need to have all dll's and exe's somehow already uncompressed?
11-19-97 20:40:18 <pfitz> wrightc: the idea right now is you install the app under win95/nt, and then convert it...but it is possible that SETUP's will be done later.
11-19-97 20:40:28 <TimurTabi> our immediate plans are to require that you install your app under Win95/NT on another partition, and then you boot OS/2 and access those exe's and dll's and convert them.
11-19-97 20:40:47 <Dargon> Are you looking for volunteers for helping with the coding of the project?
11-19-97 20:40:54 <TimurTabi> no, we are not looking for any more volunteers.
11-19-97 20:41:33 <MADodel> Go ahead Dark
11-19-97 20:41:34 <Dark> Is it a full conversion to a native os/2 executable (open 32, etc.), or is it a partial conversion with lots of "patches" to force it to work under os/2?
11-19-97 20:41:52 <TimurTabi> no, it's a full conversion
11-19-97 20:41:58 <TimurTabi> however,
11-19-97 20:42:12 <TimurTabi> we need to supply the full Win32 API one way or another,
11-19-97 20:42:23 <TimurTabi> whatever Open32 doesn't provide, we have to provide ourselves
11-19-97 20:42:26 <Dark> ok. So it will be slower than native NT ?
11-19-97 20:42:43 <TimurTabi> these additional API's are located in various DLL's that we call the "supplemental DLL's"
11-19-97 20:42:56 <tandie> go darkstar :)
11-19-97 20:42:56 <TimurTabi> it's as fast as an Open32 app
11-19-97 20:43:05 <Dark> Thanks :)
11-19-97 20:43:12 <TimurTabi> it's as fast as SmartSuite
11-19-97 20:43:13 <TheSeer> will the converter automaticly find all used DLL's or do we have to start the converter for each library.?
11-19-97 20:43:14 <TimurTabi> no, it will not find them.
11-19-97 20:43:26 <TimurTabi> we may provide additional tools to help you locate them,
11-19-97 20:43:26 <TheSeer> ok...
11-19-97 20:43:33 <TimurTabi> and perhaps even automate the process.
11-19-97 20:43:37 <TimurTabi> but for now, it's all manual.
11-19-97 20:43:42 <pfitz> TheSeer: an "on the fly" converter is in the back burner
11-19-97 20:43:50 <MADodel> Go ahead Klaus
11-19-97 20:43:58 <Klaus> TimurTabi: Do you know when/if IBM will fix this "512MB RAM" problem of the OS/2 Client (so that it would be possible to port the MS Office) Or do you have found any way to avoid the "512MB RAM Problem?
11-19-97 20:44:26 <TimurTabi> I get different answers to this question depending on whom I ask.
11-19-97 20:45:02 <TimurTabi> I personally have not heard anything promising in this regard.
11-19-97 20:45:02 <TimurTabi> My guess is that IBM will feel pressure from it's customers that are using this converter,
11-19-97 20:45:02 <pfitz> Klaus: if we can get Word running on SMP (where there is > 512mb) support, I will get that fix put in the kernel.
11-19-97 20:45:02 <TimurTabi> and they will eventually fix the problem.
11-19-97 20:45:09 <Klaus> Thanks..
11-19-97 20:45:58 <_grey> TimurTabi: has IBM reacted to any of your initial successes? Have you received any aid or offers of help from IBM or any third parties? Thanks in advance.
11-19-97 20:46:03 <MADodel> Go ahead nando2
11-19-97 20:46:09 <TimurTabi> I personally have had no communications from IBM.
11-19-97 20:46:18 <pfitz> _grey: yes
11-19-97 20:46:21 <nando2> timur and pftiz: Are you guys working with,or have any of you contacted DAVID REICH?, he's one of the of the brains behind (DAX/DAPIE/OPEN32). His email is 76711,632 (CIS) or firstname.lastname@example.org (dunno if he's still in IBM)
11-19-97 20:46:29 <pfitz> _grey: there's even one ibm'er on the team
11-19-97 20:46:54 <pfitz> nando2: yes
11-19-97 20:46:54 <TimurTabi> pftiz: having an IBM'er on the team is NOT the same thing as official contact from IBM
11-19-97 20:47:07 <Barmaley> Are Open32 APIs slower than native OS/2 APIs? If so, how much?
11-19-97 20:47:07 <pfitz> nando2: he's still at ibm, but not the mgr of DAX (but he has helped anyway)
11-19-97 20:47:33 <TimurTabi> barmaley: good question. I think overall they're slower, but there may be some that are faster here and there.
11-19-97 20:48:03 <darkstar> Timur: what plans do you have to make it available? Free?
11-19-97 20:48:17 <Terrulen> Where is the bulk of the work being done? On the supplemental DLLs?
11-19-97 20:48:17 <TimurTabi> yes, IT WILL BE FREE.
11-19-97 20:48:17 <pfitz> Abraxas: in general, open32 is damn good! Some open32 apps run faster on OS/2 than win95/nt.
11-19-97 20:48:18 <tandie> woo hoo!!
11-19-97 20:48:27 <TimurTabi> the builk of the work now is in the DLL's.
11-19-97 20:48:41 <TimurTabi> abraxas: trust pfitz - he knows better than I
11-19-97 20:48:42 <darkstar> Timur: will you get any problems from windoze software vendors??
11-19-97 20:48:51 <pfitz> darkstar: it will be free for the end user anyway.
11-19-97 20:49:01 <TimurTabi> one thing I want to mention is that the converted EXE's and DLL's are often MUCH SMALLER than the originals
11-19-97 20:49:18 <TimurTabi> darkstar: like what kind of problems?
11-19-97 20:49:55 <nathana> First, how long to you 'spect it to be before an alpha or beta or demo version is released, and how long do you guesstimate it will be before the final thing is done? Also, will any source code be released to the public? GA.
11-19-97 20:50:13 <nathana> TIA. :-)
11-19-97 20:50:24 <Korig> Could you clarify that the package will be of no use at all if you don't have a copy of win95 installed on the same machine?
11-19-97 20:50:27 <TimurTabi> nathana: I don't have any availability dates. Pfitz, what about the source?
11-19-97 20:50:27 <pfitz> nathana: source code, probably not.
11-19-97 20:50:29 <DynoMutt> What version of DirectX are you converting? also: is Win16 a subset of Win32, and if so, will Win16 be convertible too?
11-19-97 20:50:57 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event atr Madodel and tandie, please /msg either of us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 20:51:01 <pfitz> Korig: you will need win95, but not nec on the same machine.
11-19-97 20:51:07 <TimurTabi> korig: yes, if you don't have win95/nt installed, it will be useless. That may change in the future, though
11-19-97 20:51:31 <TimurTabi> dyno: directx support is WAY down the road
11-19-97 20:51:47 <Sleekit> I'm interested in your opinions on whether or not this will become a major draw for OS/2's upcoming versions in the end user market
11-19-97 20:51:54 <MADodel> go ahead Sleekit
11-19-97 20:51:56 <TimurTabi> Win16 apps WILL NOT be supported
11-19-97 20:51:56 <pfitz> DynoMutt: os/2 already runs 16bit win apps. Our project is only for pure 32bit exe's and dll's.
11-19-97 20:52:11 <Sleekit> Thank you MADodel.
11-19-97 20:52:28 <MADodel> go ahead os2hq, you are op'd
11-19-97 20:52:30 <DynoMutt> pfitz: OK, just wondering (Seamless Win16 would be a good idea tho)
11-19-97 20:52:32 <pfitz> Sleekit: maybe, but our focus is the corporate market.
11-19-97 20:52:33 <TimurTabi> sleekit: yes, I see all sorts of users, from SOHO to enterprise, either sticking with on switching to OS/2 because of this tool.
11-19-97 20:52:55 <TimurTabi> on => or
11-19-97 20:52:55 <tandie> go ahead nando2
11-19-97 20:53:04 <os2hq> Okay, thanx. Timur, what about Win32s 1.30 support? It's a real sticking point with me.
11-19-97 20:53:09 <TimurTabi> pfitz is more interested in the corporate, whereas my interest is in the SOHO
11-19-97 20:53:23 <nando2> my main interest is cd-r programs, does open32 include a 'bridge' to turn windows 'aspi32' request to the os/2 aspi manager? or would you have to convert ASPI32.DLL as well?? I heard open32 already includes winsock32 calls
11-19-97 20:53:30 <TimurTabi> win32s is a 16-bit thing - we're not touching that
11-19-97 20:53:41 <TimurTabi> win32s is for Win-OS/2. This project is completely unrelated to Win-OS/2
11-19-97 20:53:48 <os2hq> Thanks.
11-19-97 20:54:06 <WrightC> Do you know how long it will take (rough estimate) before this toolset will be developed enough so that high-end applications (like Desktop Publishing programs) can be converted?
11-19-97 20:54:10 <TimurTabi> nando2: there is no limit to what we can do. It's all a question of time.
11-19-97 20:54:10 <pfitz> nando2: not sure about aspi.
11-19-97 20:54:15 <timtim> Have Micros**t benn in contact /contacted ?
11-19-97 20:54:32 <TimurTabi> wright: again, we have no availibilty dates.
11-19-97 20:54:34 <nando2> pfitz: could you check and let me know? -tia
11-19-97 20:55:00 <TimurTabi> timtim: no, we don't care about MS, and they haven't contacted us (to my knowledge)
11-19-97 20:55:12 <timtim> tnx
11-19-97 20:55:14 <pfitz> WrightC: there are only a few of us really doing any coding, and are all volunteers. It will be a few months at least -- if it is even possible.
11-19-97 20:55:36 <MADodel> go ahead caveman
11-19-97 20:56:00 <nando2> timur: can u confirm then if winsock calls ARE included in open32?
11-19-97 20:56:03 <pfitz> the only "official" contact we
11-19-97 20:56:26 <Caveman> I'm curious about the header that you change from Win to OS/2. What kind of information is in those headers.
11-19-97 20:56:32 <TimurTabi> I don't think winsock is in Open32, but pmsock is just like it
11-19-97 20:56:33 <pfitz> the only "official" contact we've had from any companies are large os/2 shops that want to use the product. IBM and MS have not contacted us officially.
11-19-97 20:57:01 <pfitz> nando2: someone just did the winsock stuff. It is done/
11-19-97 20:57:15 <TimurTabi> caveman: you mean EXE headers? check the web page - it's way too detailed information to present here.
11-19-97 20:57:21 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel and tandie, please /msg either of us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 20:57:31 <pfitz> Caveman: I think timur covers that on his web page.
11-19-97 20:57:37 <MADodel> and Abraxas
11-19-97 20:57:46 <Caveman> Yes. And what changes with the DLLs
11-19-97 20:58:12 <TimurTabi> caveman: same thing with DLL's and EXE's
11-19-97 20:58:35 <ulthar> Is it possible that I will be able to code win32 Visual Basic programs under OS/2 as I now do win16 VB programs?
11-19-97 20:58:50 <pfitz> oops, I was wrong about winsock.
11-19-97 20:58:58 <pfitz> [VeV] <20:58> No it's not done. I had hoped for 70% this
11-19-97 20:58:59 <pfitz> week, I'll only have about 40% (for wsock32).
11-19-97 20:59:06 <TimurTabi> ulthar: do you mean can VB be converted to an OS/2 app?
11-19-97 20:59:33 <ulthar> yes, Timur
11-19-97 20:59:33 <TimurTabi> perhaps, but it's just like any other major app: we don't know for sure how long it will take to convert any of them.
11-19-97 20:59:46 <TimurTabi> right now we're still in code-frenzy stage
11-19-97 20:59:59 <Terrulen> How long ago did you start working on this project?
11-19-97 21:00:08 <TimurTabi> we know we have lots of DLL's and API's to provide, so we're not even measuring our progress
11-19-97 21:00:23 <TimurTabi> terrulen: about six months ago. pfitz?
11-19-97 21:00:35 <MADodel> Trix: Go ahead and ask your question you are op'd
11-19-97 21:01:05 <pfitz> Terrulen: looking it up.
11-19-97 21:01:08 <trix> I may have missed alot...but is this just going to be a development p
11-19-97 21:01:20 <trix> package? or something anyone can use?
11-19-97 21:01:21 <TimurTabi> no, this is for END-USERS only
11-19-97 21:01:21 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:01:35 <pfitz> Terrulen: june
11-19-97 21:01:43 <trix> timur: very nice.. :)
11-19-97 21:01:57 <Dark> OpenGL games are going to be the future of gaming pretty soon. (For our generic 3d first person ones anyway). Will OpenGL win items be converted using this utility? As I understand some corporations are NOT going to convert and market os/2 versions of some games. (Quake II may be one of those mentioned not porting)
11-19-97 21:02:21 <TimurTabi> dark: we have someone working on that already :-)
11-19-97 21:02:31 <Dark> Great!!
11-19-97 21:02:58 <pfitz> dark: we have someone who WILL work on that would be more accurate I think
11-19-97 21:03:19 <PHS> Any idea how to handle removed relocation records AKA based loading. Pariticularly when this goes beyond OS/2s process address space ?
11-19-97 21:03:19 <pfitz> Dark: if we can't get the basics working, the other stuff will be wasted time.
11-19-97 21:03:42 <trix> what about developing win32-OS/2 apps? WIll there be libraries available to those of us who would like to develop compatible apps?
11-19-97 21:04:06 <pfitz> phs: if an object (code/data) is not relocatable, and does not fit in os/2, it will not work.
11-19-97 21:04:13 <Abraxas> ?me doesn't, either
11-19-97 21:04:23 <pfitz> phs: we had a hell of a time just getting the ones that did fit in the adress space to work!
11-19-97 21:04:32 <TimurTabi> trix: we will make our DLL's available to developers, if they want.
11-19-97 21:04:36 <pfitz> phs: and ended up with a kludge, but it works.
11-19-97 21:04:55 <PHS> pfitz: Thought so :) Any other incompatibilities that will prevent certain executables from running at all ?
11-19-97 21:05:25 <WrightC> Timur or Pfitz, would it be possible for a non-OS/2 ISV to write an app in Win32, then convert it with your tools *After Compile*, and voila -- instant OS/2 app?
11-19-97 21:05:28 <codehd7> pfitz: you mentioned that source code will not be released. is it a definite No nd what are the reasons please?
11-19-97 21:05:30 <pfitz> phs: there are still some things have not done (like memory mapped files) that might cause problems.
11-19-97 21:05:30 <tandie> go ahead codehd7
11-19-97 21:05:39 <TimurTabi> wrightc: yes
11-19-97 21:05:47 <pfitz> phs: there is also the "user excetion" problem
11-19-97 21:06:13 <pfitz> wrigghtc: yes
11-19-97 21:06:32 <pfitz> codehd7: I'll take that
11-19-97 21:06:51 <TimurTabi> wrightc: however, that OS/2 app will lack OS/2-specific features like WPS integration
11-19-97 21:06:56 <Caveman> I would like to voice my support and tell you that I think this is a most ingenious effort!
11-19-97 21:07:18 <TimurTabi> thank you!
11-19-97 21:07:27 <pfitz> codehd7: this is a long story, and requires you to listen to the "misstion statement", if that is ok.
11-19-97 21:07:45 <codehd7> pfitz: it's ok with me
11-19-97 21:07:58 <codehd7> pfitz: unless it's more convenient to put it on the webpage
11-19-97 21:08:11 <codehd7> pfitz: if it's such a long story :)
11-19-97 21:08:12 <pfitz> codehd7: in the beginning (before TImur, so I don;t know what he thinks) ...
11-19-97 21:08:13 <MADodel> Go ahead Dirk
11-19-97 21:08:48 <pfitz> codehd7: it was decided that the best thing for all os/2 users was to keep large companies using OS/2...
11-19-97 21:08:57 <Dirk> Timur/pfitz, great project. Just curious if you have any funding and if not, could it help speed development?
11-19-97 21:09:15 <TimurTabi> dirk: no funding, and it wouldn't help either.
11-19-97 21:09:26 <pfitz> dirk: some people need compilers.
11-19-97 21:09:42 <WrightC> When a Win32 app is converted with the tools, will it lack all integration with the WPS, or will there be a way to hook some WPS functionality in?
11-19-97 21:09:42 <TimurTabi> that's true. some people do need compilers.
11-19-97 21:09:42 <ptackbar> um, I'm a little late..just wondered if a date has been mentioned (or projected date) for some any kind of release
11-19-97 21:09:50 <pfitz> codehd7: so the target is apps that will keep large companies from switching from OS/2 to NT
11-19-97 21:09:57 <TimurTabi> wrightc: it will lack all the OS/2-specific stuff.
11-19-97 21:10:08 <TimurTabi> ptackbar: no date.
11-19-97 21:10:10 <pfitz> codehd7: IOW, word processors, presentation programs and spreadsheets.
11-19-97 21:10:13 <mandie> timur: weren't there some ppl at Warpstock that wanted to help with funding?
11-19-97 21:10:28 <Dark> Several other's have asked similar things, but... Is there anyway we can help you to keep the project going smoothly? Asking corporations for support. Mailing, being around for help, etc?
11-19-97 21:10:43 <TimurTabi> mandie: I think so, but I didn't pay much attention, since I didn't think we needed any money
11-19-97 21:11:08 <pfitz> codehd7: it has also been my experience that large companies do not use "freeware" or "shareware" (in general).
11-19-97 21:11:15 <TimurTabi> dark: not for the time being. it's still to early. the best thing that you can do
11-19-97 21:11:23 <pfitz> codehd7: and they also don't like things that "hackers have the source code to"
11-19-97 21:11:29 <TimurTabi> is tell big companies that are switching to NT, "Hey, wait! look at this stuff!"
11-19-97 21:12:20 <Barmaley> If a Windows compiler will be converted, how is it expected to work?
11-19-97 21:12:22 <pfitz> codehd7: so the best thing that could happen (for os/2) is for us to get this thing to work , and present it to IBM and have them bless it and release it.
11-19-97 21:12:33 <TimurTabi> barmaley: just like an OS/2 compiler.
11-19-97 21:12:53 <Barmaley> but it will still generate win exes, right?
11-19-97 21:12:57 <TimurTabi> pfitz: or even better, make it run on the fly and add it to a fixpack!
11-19-97 21:13:03 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:13:08 <TimurTabi> barmaley: no, it generates OS/2 exe's
11-19-97 21:13:41 <Projects> pfitz: and if IBM doesn't bless and release it?
11-19-97 21:13:41 <Sleekit_> Thank you, MADodel. I'd like to ask (if you two have one) what the process entails for the user to convert and run a program.
11-19-97 21:13:45 <nathana> pfitz: Are you saying that you are relying on IBM to release this? And if they decide not to, will you release it anyways? GA...I'll log this as I gotta go. :-)
11-19-97 21:14:19 <TimurTabi> sleekit: that's answered on the web page - basically just do "pe2lx winapp.exe os2app.exe" and that's it. The same for the DLL's
11-19-97 21:14:19 <pfitz> Projects: then I suspect we will have to set up some sort of body to sell it (since large companies insist on paying for software -- so they get support)
11-19-97 21:14:43 <Sleekit_> Thank you, Timur
11-19-97 21:14:43 <TimurTabi> nathana: we're not relying on IBM for anything
11-19-97 21:14:43 <PolyEx> If this is a project that is asking for volunteers, why is it not set up with a GNU lisc. etc.. would this not speed up development?
11-19-97 21:14:56 <Projects> pfitz: ok, great then... I just wanted to make sure it would be available somehow :)
11-19-97 21:15:02 <TimurTabi> polyex: we're not asking for volunteers.
11-19-97 21:15:10 <PolyEx> Ok
11-19-97 21:15:12 <PHS> Do you plan to release the PE2LX + Thunks source code ? Perhaps for someone to tailor a ELF2LX from it ?
11-19-97 21:15:16 <ulthar> What are your thoughts regarding the fact that this is user-driven rather than IBM-driven? Is OS/2 getting more like Linux in that regard?
11-19-97 21:15:20 <pfitz> Projects: you "end users" will get it, don't worry.
11-19-97 21:15:37 <PolyEx> So this is a commercial product?
11-19-97 21:15:39 <Projects> pfitz: :))
11-19-97 21:15:48 <TimurTabi> ulthar: I don't think so. I don't look at this any different than XFree/86
11-19-97 21:16:02 <TimurTabi> in fact, since the source code won't be available, it's not even like that either.
11-19-97 21:16:26 <TimurTabi> polyex: no, it's not commercial.
11-19-97 21:16:36 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:16:43 <TimurTabi> although pfitz says that some companies will expect a formal support/purchase mechanism before they consider it. we'll leave that to someone else.
11-19-97 21:17:36 <pfitz> TimurTabi: the big os/2 shops are banks, insurance cos, etc... they don't screw around when it comes to support!
11-19-97 21:18:06 <TimurTabi> pfitz: yeah, but who will support them? Not us!
11-19-97 21:18:30 <pfitz> TimurTabi: if ibm doesn't, we might! MAybe not you...
11-19-97 21:18:52 <pfitz> phs: no
11-19-97 21:18:54 <TimurTabi> phs: no, we will not release our source
11-19-97 21:19:24 <pfitz> I can only see the source being released if no one wants to support it.
11-19-97 21:19:34 <TimurTabi> like pfitz said, some companies don't like the security risks that it would allow.
11-19-97 21:19:47 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:19:47 <Caveman> My company uses a lot of CAD software on NT. I hope you will be able to do these types of programs also.
11-19-97 21:20:31 <pfitz> and that would probably only happen if the product is a market failure (no one big wants it)
11-19-97 21:20:31 <TimurTabi> caveman: only time will tell.
11-19-97 21:20:34 <TimurTabi> but I think CAD software would be easier than Office '97
11-19-97 21:21:03 <Caveman> Thats encouraging
11-19-97 21:21:03 * Projects hopes so... cad software is the only thing he needs converted
11-19-97 21:21:06 <Klaus> pfitz/Timur: Large companies will have a problem with Win32->OS/2, because patched Software maybee not legal and defenetly unsupported , and support is (imho) more important for big companies than the software features.
11-19-97 21:21:38 <TimurTabi> klaus: well, that's their problem.
11-19-97 21:21:42 <pfitz> klu: unsupported yes, illegal? I don't think so.
11-19-97 21:21:56 <codehd7> Timur/pfitz: perhaps Brad Wardell (Stardock) would take over the project officially once it's in that stage???
11-19-97 21:22:07 <Klaus> pfitz/Timur: OK ;o)
11-19-97 21:22:11 <TimurTabi> pfitz: well, what if MS says, "you can only run Office under MS OS's?"
11-19-97 21:22:22 <pfitz> Klaus: as long as they have a valid licesnce for the win32 s/w, I don't see what the problem is. They are not reverse engineering it.
11-19-97 21:22:36 <TimurTabi> codehd7: I don't know if that's a good thing.
11-19-97 21:22:45 <pfitz> TimurTabi: I'd like to read such a license agreement (just before I mailed it to the DOJ :)
11-19-97 21:22:57 <codehd7> timur: I'd think it's better than giving it to IBM
11-19-97 21:23:08 <pfitz> codehd7: stardkock? over my dead body!
11-19-97 21:23:16 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:23:20 <MADodel> Any chance you will make this free to the individual user, but on a commercial basis for corporate users?
11-19-97 21:23:33 <TimurTabi> yes, it will be FREE!!!!
11-19-97 21:23:40 <TimurTabi> FREE !!!! FREE !!!!!!!!
11-19-97 21:23:45 <tandie> free??
11-19-97 21:23:47 <tandie> :)
11-19-97 21:23:55 <TimurTabi> free for corporate users too, if they want.
11-19-97 21:24:31 <tandie> I have a q:... will you be looking for beta testers? and if so, what will be the mechanism for application?
11-19-97 21:24:52 <pfitz> if ibm takes it, it will be "part of os/2" -- so not really free.
11-19-97 21:24:52 <trix> whats free?
11-19-97 21:25:05 <TimurTabi> tandie: I don't think we're going to have a closed beta
11-19-97 21:25:11 <pfitz> tandie: I imagine it will be an "open beta"
11-19-97 21:25:11 <trix> see theb doesn't know either
11-19-97 21:25:12 <tandie> oki, thank you
11-19-97 21:25:15 <Caveman> I understand 16 bit is the past & 32 bit is the future, but why no 16 bit conversions?
11-19-97 21:25:27 <TimurTabi> caveman: because we don't care.
11-19-97 21:25:34 <pfitz> Caveman: because open32 is 32bit
11-19-97 21:26:10 <Caveman> i see
11-19-97 21:26:13 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:27:00 <MADodel> So who was the originator of this project?
11-19-97 21:27:10 <TimurTabi> Sander I think
11-19-97 21:27:17 <pfitz> let me get his full name
11-19-97 21:27:17 <pfitz> sec
11-19-97 21:27:25 <TimurTabi> I know the idea was floating around the internet for 1-2 years already.
11-19-97 21:27:33 <pfitz> Sander van Leeuwen"
11-19-97 21:27:41 <Dark> Is it possible when testing this program, that the new libraries and executables could severly damage our current setup? Or, are all the libraries used completly new, and not modifications of current ones used by os/2?
11-19-97 21:27:55 <TimurTabi> they're completely new
11-19-97 21:27:58 <Dark> great.
11-19-97 21:28:10 <pfitz> darK: one of them comes with os/2: pmwinx.dll
11-19-97 21:28:22 <pfitz> dark: as well as the registry daemon
11-19-97 21:28:30 <TimurTabi> but we're not touching those
11-19-97 21:28:44 <Dark> ok. But, no serious changes (like kernel modifications)
11-19-97 21:28:50 <pfitz> dark: the rest are new, and have the same names user under win32 (kernel32.dll, user32.dll, etc)
11-19-97 21:28:53 <nando2> I have read that IBM has included, or was going to include, OLE support into OS/2 for SmartSuite (since lotus uses OLE and never liked Opendoc). could any of you confirm this? (ole into OS/2 FP3SE and/or Open32). If it is, it would save you a lot of work and trouble. And a second simple one to save tim: are you going to create a mailing list for this project so we can learn about your progress? if not, does someone from VOICE volunteer to create one?
11-19-97 21:28:55 <TimurTabi> dark: no.
11-19-97 21:29:02 <pfitz> dark: we don't patch any os/2 code
11-19-97 21:29:14 <Dark> thanks
11-19-97 21:29:15 <pfitz> dark: but we do patch the converted code a little bit
11-19-97 21:29:26 <TimurTabi> nando2: I heard that Lotus ported part of OLE to OS/2, but I doubt we'll be able to use that.
11-19-97 21:29:44 <TimurTabi> and no, I have no plans for a mailing list.
11-19-97 21:29:54 <cowboy> 1) is there ANYTHING us SOHO & end users can do now to help & 2) whats the URL of your Webpage?
11-19-97 21:30:07 <cowboy> thanks
11-19-97 21:30:16 <TimurTabi> cowboy: no, there's nothing that you can do but wait and watch the webpage.
11-19-97 21:30:32 <TimurTabi> http://www.io.com/~timur/win32os2.html
11-19-97 21:30:38 <nando2> thanks... (but a mailing list would be nice ;) :)
11-19-97 21:30:49 <VoiceBot> [win32-os/2.project] For a description and current status - http://www.io.com/~timur/win32os2.html (MADodel)
11-19-97 21:31:15 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:31:18 <TheSeer> question to the copyright-stuff again: What about if it's prohibited to modify the stuff... i think creating an os/2-exe is kind of doing a modified copy of the win-exe..?
11-19-97 21:31:35 <TimurTabi> we're not modifying anything
11-19-97 21:31:55 <pfitz> The idea of a exe converter was Sanders (so simple, but I never thought of it! everyone else was thinking "emulator")....Sander started it, drafted me and a few others -- but still 80% of the work is sanders.
11-19-97 21:32:01 <TheSeer> TimurTabi: you (?) said before some DLL's are even smaller... ??!
11-19-97 21:32:14 <TimurTabi> what we're doing to the EXE is the same thing that the computer does when it loads it into memory.
11-19-97 21:32:16 <DaBull> How much overhead will winos2->os/2 require and how much of a performance hit?
11-19-97 21:32:22 <pfitz> TheSeer: because of exe compression. It's a trick :)
11-19-97 21:32:46 <TimurTabi> dabull: no overhead, and it might even be faster.
11-19-97 21:32:50 <TheSeer> pfitz: ahh.. ok..
11-19-97 21:32:50 <pfitz> DaBull: you only convert the app once; after that it is native os/2.
11-19-97 21:33:04 <DaBull> kewl
11-19-97 21:33:22 <pfitz> open32 is _really_ slow at a few tings (GetPixel()) for example, so it depends on the app
11-19-97 21:34:12 <Caveman> What if MS or 3rd party was relying on a bug in their original libraries?
11-19-97 21:34:27 <TimurTabi> caveman: well, then it won't work
11-19-97 21:34:35 <pfitz> Caveman: since you're converting the original libs too, the bug comes with it :)
11-19-97 21:34:39 <TimurTabi> unless the big is in Open32 or in our DLL's as well
11-19-97 21:34:50 <pfitz> Caveman: unless you are talking about bugs in the win32 api,
11-19-97 21:34:52 <Caveman> such a deal
11-19-97 21:34:57 <TimurTabi> pfitz: I think he is
11-19-97 21:35:03 <pfitz> Caveman: in which case IBM has already programmed in the bugs they know about.
11-19-97 21:35:11 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:35:22 <Caveman> great thankx
11-19-97 21:35:41 <MADodel> Let's hope IBM codes as bad as M$ then
11-19-97 21:35:48 <pfitz> We are relying on our converter to supply major parts of the system ---
11-19-97 21:35:55 <pfitz> for example, winhlp32.exe.
11-19-97 21:36:00 <pfitz> and comdlg32.dll
11-19-97 21:36:04 <pfitz> and comctl32.dll
11-19-97 21:36:12 <pfitz> they will all be converted by you.
11-19-97 21:36:54 <MADodel> your moderators for tonight's event are MADodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:37:18 <tandie> Q: what about apps requiring directx? how will they be ported over?
11-19-97 21:37:35 <TimurTabi> tandie: we'll need to port DirectX outselves, I think
11-19-97 21:37:46 <DaBull> what category of appls are you initially testing . i.e. WP, spreadsheets, graphic, DB's, etc?
11-19-97 21:37:46 <tandie> :P
11-19-97 21:37:54 <TimurTabi> that might be too much work, and some of it, like dynamic resolution changes, might not even be possible.
11-19-97 21:38:01 <Caveman> I'm soory if this was already covered but what about games. By getting office working will this mean some games might convert as well?
11-19-97 21:38:32 <pfitz> DaBull: small apps. notepad, solitaire, sample apps we wrote or from the toolkit
11-19-97 21:38:33 <TimurTabi> caveman: well, directx is the clincher. It's a tough thing to convert, since it's device-specific
11-19-97 21:39:04 <TimurTabi> caveman: again, we have no idea what will and what will be convertable, and when they will be convertable.
11-19-97 21:39:04 <DaBull> k
11-19-97 21:39:07 <Caveman> i was thinking of kali and Red Alert for 95
11-19-97 21:39:14 <pfitz> Caveman: games are not the target....
11-19-97 21:39:35 <Caveman> i understand that i was wondering wether the calls are similar at all.
11-19-97 21:39:42 <pfitz> Caveman: but we won't go out of our way to break them.
11-19-97 21:39:47 <nando2> ok: Is much of the 'graphics' api calls (the win32 equiv of GPI) already done in Open32?. I wonder if MGI's decision not to release Photosuite for OS/2 (on the app sampler CD) was because of buggy gfx support in Open32 or simply because IBM screwed up their commitments? (I'd like some of you to comment on this). (DON'T BOTHER with DirectX for me btw it's for games and I don't care and most business don't either :)
11-19-97 21:40:20 <pfitz> nando2: I did the photosuite port.
11-19-97 21:40:32 <pfitz> nando2: it was mainly because ibm screwed them
11-19-97 21:40:52 <nando2> pfitz: what a surprise. :) do you have a save-enabled ver then? :)
11-19-97 21:41:10 <pfitz> nando2: yes, probably the only one on the planet :)
11-19-97 21:41:31 <MADodel> your moderators for tonight's event are MADodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:41:34 <nando2> highly illegal to distribute, but worth millions to os/2 fans ;).ok thanks
11-19-97 21:42:01 <PHS> Will PE2LX be (script) extensible in any way ? Let's say an EXE requires a certain NT-API which I could implement myself, could I integrate it into the whole Win32-OS/2 system or will I have to bug you ? :)
11-19-97 21:42:05 <pfitz> nando2: if you send me the millions, I'm sure I'll take the chance :)
11-19-97 21:42:05 <PHS> Thanks.
11-19-97 21:42:42 <TimurTabi> you'd have to bug us, because all the API's are in DLL's that we control
11-19-97 21:42:44 <nando2> (wonder if it could leak like Doom/2 or quake/2 ;)
11-19-97 21:42:55 <MADodel> Boy this is going to be a long log tonight.
11-19-97 21:42:56 <pfitz> phs: stop saying "winos2"!
11-19-97 21:42:56 <nando2> :)) ok
11-19-97 21:43:04 <TimurTabi> you can't just slap them into some random DLL, they have to be in the RIGHT dll.
11-19-97 21:43:09 <tandie> :)
11-19-97 21:43:33 <PHS> Timur: I'm not talking about the DLLs since I could do the thunking, etc. myself. Can I have PE2LX to "forward" the entries for me ?
11-19-97 21:43:34 <pfitz> phs: there is a way around it.
11-19-97 21:43:47 <pfitz> phs: you can use a "forwarder entry"
11-19-97 21:43:50 <TimurTabi> you could use DosReplaceModule
11-19-97 21:44:32 <PHS> So how do you map the Win32 imports to OS/2 imports where the DLL names do not match ?
11-19-97 21:44:37 <pfitz> phs: you'd use FWDSTAMP on our dll to fwd it to yours
11-19-97 21:44:39 <TimurTabi> but we would prefer it if you let us incorporate the change into our DLL's
11-19-97 21:45:00 <PHS> OK. Thanks :)
11-19-97 21:45:26 <pfitz> phs: even though open32 supplies many functions, they are in the wrong dll -- as you just said -- and they also have a different calling convention, so
11-19-97 21:45:38 <pfitz> phs: all of the api's go through our dll's.
11-19-97 21:46:21 <tandie> your moderators for tonight's event are Madodel, Abraxas and tandie, please /msg us if you have a question for our guests.
11-19-97 21:46:55 <pfitz> nando2: MGI knows the photosuite would have been leaked by me -- that's why I can't do it.
11-19-97 21:47:43 <pfitz> nando2: you can save stuff to the clipboard and save it from another app.
11-19-97 21:48:41 <Barmaley> TimurTabi: you said, a converted Windows compiler will generate OS/2 exe's. Just curious, how will you tell it to do so? Will you hook the disk access functions used by the Windows compiler and rebuild the generated file on the fly?
11-19-97 21:49:03 <TimurTabi> no, a converted windows compiler will generate windows exe's
11-19-97 21:49:21 <TimurTabi> actually, the converted windows LINKER would generate the windows exe's
11-19-97 21:51:29 <TimurTabi> are there no more questions?
11-19-97 21:51:37 <pfitz> shall we call it a night?
11-19-97 21:51:56 <Dark> Will there be any serious changes to Windows98 that could render the converter useless?
11-19-97 21:52:08 <Dark> Or, are those unknown at this moment?
11-19-97 21:52:08 <TimurTabi> useless? no
11-19-97 21:52:32 <nathana> One more Q...are you planning on releasing a beta version, or only a final version?
11-19-97 21:52:32 <nathana> TIA
11-19-97 21:52:39 <TimurTabi> Win98 is just Win95 plus a dumb new shell and maybe some more API's
11-19-97 21:52:43 <MADodel> Isn't 98 just 95 with IE 4.0 and a few fixes?
11-19-97 21:52:47 <pfitz> nando2: there will be a beta
11-19-97 21:52:49 <Dark> That's what I thought.
11-19-97 21:52:50 <TimurTabi> until there are Win98-only apps out there, it should not be a problem.
11-19-97 21:53:04 <PHS> You're working on the common controls ? Will you do a release (headers) for use in apps other than PE2LX ? I'd like to know whether I'll get neat toolbars, etc. for my apps.
11-19-97 21:53:05 <nathana> Actually, U mean nathana... ;-)
11-19-97 21:53:29 <pfitz> phs: those will be converted by you
11-19-97 21:53:39 <MADodel> Uh, I meant enhancements. We all know M$ never releases buggy software.
11-19-97 21:54:05 <PHS> pfitz: I meant wheather I could use YOUR comctl32 for MY OS/2 apps :)
11-19-97 21:54:13 <TimurTabi> WE won't have a comctl32
11-19-97 21:55:15 <pfitz> phs: no, that problably won't work
11-19-97 21:55:15 <PHS> Timur: Oh, i c. You have me to convert the original one ...
11-19-97 21:55:15 <nando2> are there any other groups (maybe for unix?) working on some 'free win32 api' where you could get code/info from?. (or win95 emulators?). (BTW: never do release source, it could help *nix platforms gain some advantage over os/2 and none of us want it :)
11-19-97 21:55:15 <TimurTabi> YOu will make your own comctl32
11-19-97 21:55:15 <pfitz> phs: it's conceivable, but not likely that you can use the converted dll's.
11-19-97 21:55:16 <TimurTabi> nando: there's nothing stopping us from looking at the source of WINE to learn how to implement an API that's not in Open32.
11-19-97 21:55:36 <TimurTabi> copying the code would violate the GPL.
11-19-97 21:55:47 <nando2> ok :)
11-19-97 21:55:54 <TimurTabi> but it's not like anyone would notice.
11-19-97 21:55:54 <pfitz> TimurTabi: I thought wine was a x86 eumulator that runs the real win16 stuff?
11-19-97 21:56:08 <TimurTabi> pfitz: I think WINE is a Win32 emulator.
11-19-97 21:56:41 <PHS> pfitz: According to the updated SMP.INF the current WarpServer 4 SMP Kernel has high-memory support. Altough I guess it won't provide contiguous memory across the 512MB segment.
11-19-97 21:57:01 <MADodel> Well folks it's getting late. are there any more questions for Timur and pfitz?
11-19-97 21:57:03 <nando2> I have one more question... are the queues empty? :)
11-19-97 21:57:03 <pfitz> phs: right -- there is a gap we can't use...
11-19-97 21:57:06 <TimurTabi> phs: updated SMP.INF?!?!?!
11-19-97 21:57:21 <pfitz> phs: MS word loads at 800mb, which is outside the gap
11-19-97 21:57:52 <PHS> Timur: smp.inf, 983712, 96/11/06 - well updated ...
11-19-97 21:57:52 <nando2> how big is the current package? (dlls and the exe converter)?
11-19-97 21:58:07 <nathana> TimurTabi: Actually, at this point, I think WINE is a Win16 emulator, with plans to do Win32 soon...
11-19-97 21:58:34 <TimurTabi> nando: it could easily fit on a floppy
11-19-97 21:58:34 <pfitz> nando2: ziped, ~512k
11-19-97 21:58:40 <nando2> wow :)
11-19-97 21:58:56 <nando2> that certainly makes it better than java (at least to download )
11-19-97 21:59:40 <MADodel> I'm going to take the channel off moderation in a few minutes. Feel free to stay and chat.
11-19-97 22:00:06 <Dark> I'd like to thank TimurTabi and pfitz for speaking to us tonight (today?). Please feel free to stay and continue chatting in a non-moderated setting, or join #os/2 for more generic os/2 chat. Once again, thanks to the Voice team, and the users who made it possible.
11-19-97 22:00:25 <Dark> I know I learned alot about the potential of os/2.
11-19-97 22:00:43 <MADodel> go ahead Pirks
11-19-97 22:00:46 <pfitz> fyi -- I usually hang out in #Os2coders on EFNET
11-19-97 22:00:46 <Projects> On behalf of Voice, I'd like to thank TimurTabi and pfitz for enlightening us tonight (and for drawing our biggest crowd ever :>)
11-19-97 22:00:55 <tandie> :)
11-19-97 22:00:58 <VoiceBot> [voice] Virtual OS/2 International Consumer Education (mandie)
11-19-97 22:00:59 <TimurTabi> and I'm usually on #os2prog
11-19-97 22:01:08 <VoiceBot> [voice.web] The official VOICE web site - http://www.os2voice.org/ (MADodel)
11-19-97 22:01:34 <nando2> thanks to both and keep the good work!. there are a lot of os/2 users down there (even if brancher and me are the only ones from south america :)
11-19-97 22:01:43 <mandie> VOICE would like to thank Peter Fitzsimmons and Timur Tabi for being our guests this evening!
11-19-97 22:01:51 <nando2> eer I mean down here :)
11-19-97 22:01:59 <Pirks> Well, Timur, what do youthink about Javain general and don't you think that in some future there wouldbe no need for you dlls because of Java ?
11-19-97 22:02:43 <nando2> pirks: I'm gonna die of a heart attack the day I see MS Office written in java (and perhaps Gates and Ballmer would be dead too by then ;)
11-19-97 22:02:47 <pfitz> Pirks: only if MS releases "Java Office"
11-19-97 22:02:51 <TimurTabi> well, I think it'll be a long time before Java will replace enough apps to make our stuff irrelevant
11-19-97 22:02:58 <TimurTabi> besides, there are still lots of DOS and Win16 apps in use
11-19-97 22:03:03 <tandie> ya