SpeakUp with Serenity Systems from 11/27/2000

<mandie g'evening :)
<MADodel Shall we get rolling? I have 20:01EST
<mandie he IS here! :)
<MADodel Bob are you expecting anyone else?
<Skip Is there to be another (repeat??) session on Friday for our European friends??
<mandie Skip: that's up to Bob, but we'll be glad to host one
<BobStJohn Expecting anyone? I'd love for Kim to participate .. but this is 5PM for him
<BobStJohn So ...it's me.
<mandie BobStJohn: if you'
<mandie oops
<Skip Say Bob, when is the ETA of ECS GA??
<mandie if you're free...shall we schedule a session again for this coming Friday at 3p?
<Blackbird Bob I hope that you have Voicetype enabled for your responces....:)
<BobStJohn Skip Well, we are still looking at the end of December to finish up and start distribution in early January.
<BobStJohn Blackbird You know .. I've never used VT. Maybe I should have ... looks cool
<BobStJohn I was asked to start with a trivia question ... ready?
<mandie oh, I'd wait til about mid session
*  Blackbird yep
<BobStJohn Can anyone name the components of OS/2 as announced in April 1987 and where they were developed?
*  Blackbird can't
<Rat-Salad erm.. before my time
<Chrissy not me...
<BobStJohn Sissies!
<mandie lol
<DSOM_eCS MS OS/2 1.0
<Blackbird developed REDMAN
<Chrissy I never heard of os/2 in 1987
<BobStJohn Here's a hint ..... Standard Edition was in Boca!
<warspite I saw something about a place called Boca Raton.
<DSOM_eCS Extended Edition...EE
<Rat-Salad geesh I was 7 years-old at the time
<BobStJohn DSOM_eCS right .. .now what was in EE
<DCasey besides REXX?
<DSOM_eCS BobStJohn - I'll stop responded....not fair for anyone else.
<Blackbird Redman Washington for EE
<DSOM_eCS BobStJohn - I'll stop responding...not fair for anyone else.
<BobStJohn EE had three components ...
<MADodel DataManager/2, Communications Manager/2
<BobStJohn mandie Very good ... one more ... c'mon
<BobStJohn darn
<BobStJohn That was supposed to be MADvirc
*  mandie destroyed the answers so Bob wouldn't have to kill her!
<mandie we're not allowed to play
<MADodel I have the manuals downstairs, let me check
<Skip I would say presentation manager.
<Sector Nope
<BobStJohn ... MADvirc What did you say .... LAN Manager ????
<BobStJohn Why, that's right!
<BobStJohn Those were the Austin contributions
<BobStJohn So, I guess MADvirc is our winner?
<mandie Back in the days of SAA :)
<Sector Ok, the Standard Edition didn't include PM
<BobStJohn mandie Exactly
<BobStJohn PM was part of Release 2
<BobStJohn But mandie got me ... because all the presentations where SAA Compliant ... dictum of Earl Wheeler
<Fido2 BobStJohn: Question for you if you get the upgrade. And have to reinstall from a blank hdd, do have install os/2 warp first before upgrade to ec2?
<BobStJohn No.
<BobStJohn eCS and MCP are a complete client product.
<mandie so clean install out of the box
<BobStJohn However, they are Warp 4 upgrades ... so from an intellectual property standpoint, Warp 4 is required.
<Fido2 So there is no sniffer in them then
<BobStJohn eCS Upgrade requires Warp 4 license ... eCS 'new user' includes a Warp 4 license.
<mandie upgrade without the "sniffer"
<BobStJohn That's why we can include all the Bonus Pack and Voice Type and other "as is" components of Warp 4
<BobStJohn Would you like us to put a sniffer in?
<gregy no
<Fido2 no
<mandie no thank you :)
<warspite So VT and BP are still there? Beauty!
<Skip I think "sniffer" = Winxx.
<mandie Skip: that would be "snuffer"
<mandie or suffer
<DSOM_eCS A network sniffer (DatagLANce etc.) would be nice. :-)
<BobStJohn Well, I gotta be careful about the BP ... some of it is gone ... not worth including.
<BobStJohn But if you have favorite BP components, make sure we know about them.
<Blackbird SO the upgrade WILL install OVER Warp 4 fp14....
<BobStJohn Fact is, some of that stuff is out of date, the people are gone ..
<BobStJohn You know ... I hesitate to make any assurance about how OS/2 will install .. and this is OS/2.
<warspite I cannot live without my PIM utilities from BP
<mandie Voice Type isn't even supported on the OS/2 platform any longer is it?
<BobStJohn I don't think any of the BP (or VT) has been "supported" for years.
<Blackbird But now it will be>>????
<mandie true, BP was extinct when Warp 4 was released
<BobStJohn No .... there is no one around to support BP ... it will be "community" support on the news servers..
*  mandie thinks that OS/2 users have become acustomed to "community" support :)
<BobStJohn Can I thank all of you who have been part of the Preview .. eGroups and now on the news groups
<BobStJohn I think the Preview has taught all of us a great deal
<Blackbird Once again.....will eCS install OVER Warp4 fp14 without a CLEAN hd
<Sector Sure you can, your welcome
<warspite BobStJohn: On installation, still the same as Warp 4? Still able to create a DOS/WIN partiton as per the Warp3 handbook?
<MADodel Any chance IBM will give you the source for any of the BP apps?
<BobStJohn Installation will be much like WSeb
<mandie BobStJohn: Can we thank you for supporting the os2 community...it's nice to know that someone actually listens!
<BobStJohn IBM doesn't have the source for the BP
<warspite second to Mandie
<BobStJohn It is amazing to me the things IBM cannot locate ... you know, all the stuff that urban legends tell us were developed, but never made it into a product.
<BobStJohn A lot may be true .. but no one can find the stuff
<BobStJohn I never knew a developer who didn't have every line of code they ever wrote .. or was given to them.
<mandie you'd think a company that size would be organized
<DCasey Why is that amazing? .. I can't find stuff I downloaded yetserday :-)
<mandie and had the second copy locked up in a safe deposit box :)
<gregy go poke around on their sites, and it won't surprise you...
<BobStJohn I want to mention that we do have a new user interface project
<Blackbird They probably are well organized.....it's just when you have 10 gizzillion things to keep track off.....
<BobStJohn It is being headed by Mensys (Joachim Benjamins)
<DSOM_eCS Yeah, a lot of the stuff in BP was developed by FootPrint.
<mandie more...more...what's the project
<BobStJohn It includes Richard Castle (Dialog Enhancer), Alessandro Cantatore (Styler/2), and Ulrich Moeller participates.
<WarpedOS2 The new user interface, you are just refering to the interface not the redesign of wps?
<warspite Back again
<BobStJohn But it is an update .. we are looking at new folders, controls, icons
<BobStJohn I recall a comment from someone who was giving an eCS demo .. and the folks seemed distracted by the lack of a uniform desktop ..
<BobStJohn Kept asking questions about icons ...
<warspite Thanks RumpleS. Will do.
<BobStJohn Well, I think we all agree .. the OS/2 classic look is from 1995. Those who want it .. .it will remain.
<BobStJohn But .. it seems like a good time to update, modernize .. the look.
<mandie agree
<BobStJohn IOW .. we are looking at a change in the can .. not the beer
<Fido2 About lvm, if the volume which goes over a few drives. How can you backup that one drive?
<Blackbird not to web pages I hope....
<BobStJohn not to web pages?
<mandie as in windoze
<RumpleS aka win98
<mandie Active Desktop
<BobStJohn Oh ... well, we are looking at "skins" .. during install the user will select a "look"
<Blackbird Just have it selectable is all....
<BobStJohn That could be OS/2, eCS, Windows, Linux, Apple,
<WarpedOS2 Hi Bob, what about parts of the interface with stardock Object Desktop? Would they cooperate?
<mandie sounds sort of like some of the gui interfaces for linux
<Skip Sounds Cool!!
<BobStJohn I haven't spoken to Brad for awhile. To be honest, I think Brad is beat up and worn out on this.
<mandie I think Brad's last article said it all
<WarpedOS2 Bob, from his Newsgroup, I would have to agree...he is kinda bitter I think...
<BobStJohn OD is a Kurt Westerfield (I may have butchered his last name) effort and Brad is not sure what they will do with it .. I think Kurt will make that decision
<Fido2 Bob: About lvm, if the volume which goes over a few drives. How can you backup that one drive?
<Blackbird To a very large tape I guess....LOL
<BobStJohn Sorry .. and LVM question .. Mark? Do you know? I hate product questions .. what if I said the same way you do it on Warp Server for e-business? ... what that be fair?
<BobStJohn Can "I don't know." be an answer?
<Fido2 ok
<mandie if it's an honest one, yes :)
<BobStJohn Where's Mike Persell when I need him
<BobStJohn I do want to mention a Serenity Systems sort of direction ..
<Skip I would think that backup methods that work in WSEB would work in ECS.
<WarpedOS2 Well, I use OD and nice dialogue enhanceer and makes for a similar interface to the Bill empire..
<BobStJohn We always saw eCS as a business desktop system
<BobStJohn And WiseManager as a way to manage business desktop systems
<BobStJohn As we get closer to GA ... we want to get back to the idea of recruitng consultants
<Blackbird SO us lowly home users are....?????
<BobStJohn who will use these products with their customers
<DSOM_eCS Fido2 - Yes....the volume will carry a drive letter.
<BobStJohn Blackbird GMAB
<BobStJohn I'm a home user
<BobStJohn But if we want to be successful ... we can't base our business on the OS/2 home user
<BobStJohn The best thing we can do to support OS/2 home users isnet and our ability to do business so we can invest in the product.
<Fido2 bob: Will the ecs have better support video mpeg1 or avi files?
<BobStJohn There are few OS/2 home users ...
<BobStJohn OS/2 advocates who use OS/2 at home, yes ...
<BobStJohn And that is a community we have always supported ... and have benefitted from their support
<warspite BobStJohn: Can we communicate directly with Orion, your Oz connection with questions via email?
*  mandie applauds Serenity Systems
<BobStJohn In fact ... one of the key reasons we took on Indelible Blue was to make sure we had a channel available to home users
<WarpedOS2 Well, I find even a corporate upgrade or purchase of eCS expensive compared to the competition...herer in Canada, a copy of eCS out right is 400.00
<mandie wow
<BobStJohn I need to go back and read the questions .. now that I got off my tirade.
<Blackbird My position was to reflec that as a home user I'll be able to use eCS without having to install a network or ???? ....
<mandie WarpedOS2: it would be cheaper to move to the states :)
<WarpedOS2 Yea mandie....I agrree
<BobStJohn eCS needs to have the option for a user to have a Windows type interface .. and WorkPlace Shell makes it easy to support that .
<Fido2 mandie: It doesn't help when us has a strong dollar compare other countries
<mandie nothing wrong with "choice"
<BobStJohn Orion Solutions is www.orion-solutions.au.com and the principal consultant is Mark Rogers
<mandie that name sounds very familiar
<Sector Blackbird, eCS doesn't require a network
<RumpleS I've spoken with Mark in the past.
<WarpedOS2 Here in Canada...windows outright is still under 200.00 an upgrade is about 110.00
<BobStJohn We have an eCS multimedia discusssion group on eGroups .. and we have requested access to MMPM and MMOS2 source code so we can improve the MM capabilities.
<WarpedOS2 for eCS with no upgrade...400.00 and upgrade is 200.00
<RumpleS He has even demonstrated eCS managed by WiseManager to me.
<warspite Thanks Bob.
<BobStJohn That reminds me ... yes we are still talking to IBM wrt to access to source. They want us to be very specific and I don't want to get into details .. but we have some support from the OS/2 product group.
<mandie that's encouraging
<BobStJohn Of course, any changes in source raises issues, especially from IBM, about how this will be supported. But .. it would seem we need to make these changes if we want to make eCS accepted
<Blackbird WarpedOS2>>>were are you....I'm in Edmonton...
<mandie now if they can just find that MMOS2 source code! :)
<BobStJohn accepted by a range of users ...even home users.
<Fido2 The MMPM is outdated
<WarpedOS2 How does a reseller entice corporate to purchase a few copies of eCS and provide a solution at a competitive price when the cost is 2 to one for each license of eCS
<BobStJohn No question .. there are some things that seem to be too old to revive .. but I'll leave those decisions to the folks who will dicker with the code.
<Skip Bob - has Timur Tabi had any input about the MMos2 contemplations??
<BobStJohn Yes, Timur is part of the eGroups discussion group
<BobStJohn We are also working with IBM on a reworking of the installation process ... no surprise there
<mandie WarpedOS2: I think windoze is almost a given....I think that eCS and WiseManager will take alot of marketing in order to get it out there
<Fido2 The only app the does sort of do it, is pmpeg. But there is no sound and runs in 1/2 fps required
<BobStJohn Actually, I have found the IBM OS/2 development management to be very supportive ...
<mandie they're probably amoung the "home users" group :)
<BobStJohn I had a meeting with IBM in Austin .. to discuss how we can work with IBM, OS/2, and eCS over the next several years.
<mandie positive?
<BobStJohn I think so.
<mandie good
<BobStJohn Problem is ... sometimes it's hard to tell
<BobStJohn As long as we continue to meet .. it's good.
<mandie yes, just keep your foot in the door :)
<WarpedOS2 Mandie...a lot of the talk here is enhancements that a home user wants that is why I ragg on the price..
<BobStJohn Thing is ... we think we can take OS/2 .. or parts of it .. for quite a ride yet.
<BobStJohn We may need to bolt some new things on to the sides of it .. but that's cool
<Skip What kind of staff does IBM still have that are familiar with OS/2??
<BobStJohn WarpedOS2 You think eCS is over priced?
<WarpedOS2 Better yet how many of the team of OS/2ers are left to do the programming?
<WarpedOS2 Hi bob, yes here in Canada it is very much, it is the sam eprice as IBM OS/2 Warp 4.0
<BobStJohn WarpedOS2 How many are left? I dunno. It seemed easier to get a parking space than when I worked there.
<BobStJohn OK .. so you think eCS .. which is Warp 4 and Merlin Convenience Pack, and Smart Suite, and Desktop on Call ... should cost less that Warp 4?
<warspite Bob, are messrs Sipples and Kaply able to help. I've got their book, and it's great.
<WarpedOS2 Well, here in Canada warp 4.0 is 400.00....I doubt even corporate will look at that price per wkstn!
<BobStJohn warspite Tim Sipples and Mike Kaply have been helpful ... but those guys hardly have time to brush their teeth. I'm not sure what I can get from them as a contribution.
<warspite Fair enough.
<BobStJohn Well, I don't want to get into a big discussion on cost of acquisition ... but ... I think the cost of eCS is something that can be easily justified.
<BobStJohn eCS is much kinder on hardware resource and a lot less expensive to support
<BobStJohn Cost of acquisition is the smallest cost of putting a workstation into the organization
<warspite That's always been the saving with OS/2. No bloat.
<BobStJohn Any business that is looking at Windows today can look down the track at two more "upgrades" in the next couple of years ... and that churn won't be cheap.
<WarpedOS2 Bob I know what you are saying and I understand....the value part...but How do I convince the customer that eCS is better though it costs more than twice as much....200.00 per copy...sure but not 400.00 sheesh..!
<BobStJohn Money should be the issue. I'm more sensitive to issues of hardware support and applications.
<BobStJohn OK ... you need to acquaint the customer with the total cost of ownership. I have a white paper on the web site and another one which is sent on request to consultants on selling managed clients, also has a lot of TCO info in it.
<Blackbird What is the UPGRADE price in Canada Warpedos2
<BobStJohn Consider that Gartner puts a price tag of $10,000 on running Windows in the office ... and tell me if the $200 they save on eCS is worth it?
<Fido2 Here in Aus $US Price x 2
<Skip Couple ECS with an WSEB environment and those seats would be very cost effective in what you have to buy!
<mandie it's worth more than that just in stability
<WarpedOS2 Bob, I have similar papers of OS/2 and I can convince the customer to purchase eCS based on reliabliity, ease of use and options, hard ware well, you simply need good choice of products..I do that. but Cost the buck stops there! Then I loose out...
<BobStJohn There are other TCO figures .. IDC and Dataquest .. but not any that are below $5,000 a year .. unless you are talking about a straight line of business application on supported hardware
<warspite What will be the Upgrade price in Oz, remembering that our $ is half that of the US$?
<BobStJohn WarpedOS2 I would like to see your white paper ... you show me yours, I'll show you mine?
<mandie hehe
<BobStJohn warspite I think it would be best to go to Orion Solutions web site for pricing ... I don't want to speak for them.
<warspite OK
<WarpedOS2 Sure...I can even send you the site where I got it...I will have to check my bookmarks
<Blackbird Hi StevenL....hope everything went well...
<BobStJohn One thing we want to do with eCS is create a relatively complete PC "environment"
<WarpedOS2 Bob....maybe my corporate customers are not as big as yours, SoHO in Canada here will not even look at it, no new customers here...
<BobStJohn Well, I figure you can compete for business with 5 or more workstations. Basically putting the hardware, software, service and support into one monthly contract.
<BobStJohn Make the user aware of what is happening in the world of PC computing .. hardware and software churn.
<mandie BobStJohn: sounds like you need training sessions for those marketing eCS :)
<BobStJohn eCommerce ... isthat something they want to manage .. ?
<BobStJohn Or would they rather retain you
<BobStJohn You manage everything .. they just tell you what they need to support their business objectives .. you calculate their TCO. Then provide a contract for less than the current TCO.
<BobStJohn OS/2, eCS, Warp Server .. WiseManager .. allow you to control the support costs .. your expenses .. so you can make money that way.
<BobStJohn See ... I told'ya ... I'm Marty Marketing
<BobStJohn I've been thinking we should set up a city tour of half day seminars to get this message out. Get a couple of consultants ... and maybe 15 to 20 small organizations.
<BobStJohn Spend 30 minutes scaring the heck out of them.
<BobStJohn They ought to be scared ... chilly scary stuff out in PC land ...
<Fido2 Bob: Is the preview ready for commercial environment? Or things to be fixed?
<BobStJohn then relieve the pain with the soma of managed client computing ...
<BobStJohn Kim assures me that eCS is now ready for use by enterprise accounts ...
<BobStJohn Fido2 BTW .. we are doing a very controlled "Preview 2"
<BobStJohn Not intended for everyone .. just to help us test some changes made as a result of the feed back from the preview.
<DSOMber1 Hello all.
<Blackbird You could do a Conference type thing....HP did one in Canada last year...
<Blackbird rented movie theaters for seating and sat feed etc...
<WarpedOS2 Well, bob I need to talk to ya in person some day soon...
<BobStJohn Blackbird I think we could do that ... I want to do it with IBM's help .. ask them to help us get the folks in the door.
<BobStJohn DSOMber1 If I realized you had snuck out .. I would have talked about you ...
<Blackbird Yep that would work...
<Skip Bob - just seeing thin clients ripled from the server will turn MANY heads.
<BobStJohn Well, I'm here to talk to anyone ... it's what I do.
<BobStJohn I'm really anxious to start building a channel.
<DSOM_eCS BobStJohn - I had an ISP problem....I'm back now.
<warspite Gotta go, everyone..Looking after my patient. Thanks for everything and the best of luck and wishes Bob.
<BobStJohn Jacaranda Business Systems has shown tremendous interest in creating program for resellers and consultants
<mandie warspite: thanks for coming
<WarpedOS2 Well, I support 500 - 900 windoz wkstns and it is a nightmare....eCS can change that...I know but I have to prove it...
<warspite My pleasure.
<BobStJohn WarpedOS2 Well, we should make a project out of it ... call me this week and we'll make a plan.
<mandie warpedos2: do you have the opportunity to "prove" it to them?
<WarpedOS2 Bob I have been talking to Steve at JBS
<BobStJohn Have you ... ? What's your impression.
<WarpedOS2 Mandie, Yes....I can prove it, the interface must be similar but NOT the same...Odin will have to play a part too.
<BobStJohn We are still working with Micho on a Win32 managed client running from WSeb.
<BobStJohn Some folks saw his presentation at Warpstock
<WarpedOS2 Bob ....Steve has been really helpful and willing to do stuff....but the cost is just a bit high for me to sell sell sell...If I can get one good customer...then the advertising will do the rest...
<BobStJohn OK ... if anyone has a marketing situation ... contact me. We'll try to work a special bid to get you (all) that reference account.
<BobStJohn hmmmmmmmmmmm ..... everyone must be taking a ... break
<mandie no, just thinking of how supportive you are
<Blackbird Darn ...Bob now thats service...
<mandie Blackbird: agreed
<BobStJohn Well, I know Steve would work with us, too ...
<Blackbird This could start to be a more exciting place to live soon....and work....
<BobStJohn I know that all of us will face the "who else is using this .." question .. and we need answers.
<WarpedOS2 ok, bob...I will do that. I have been holding back because of cost....I don't live in a dense population but one example of a solution will spread like wildfire and eCS will be the talk of the area
<Fido2 Bob: Does ecs support seeing long file names on win pc's? over the network
<BobStJohn Folks who know Mark Kerzner of Lumature ... there's a guy I need to recruit as a reference. He can explain the value in a small business
<BobStJohn Fido2 There is no support that is not already in WSeb and MCP .. maybe DSOM_eCS can answer that better than I can.
<DSOM_eCS Fido2 - I assume you mean using the Peer service and not via TCP/IP?
<Blackbird Will there be some type of coordinated push ....on the big user of warp4 ....governments etc....????
<Skip Bob - Do you see home user's needs from ECS differently than the enterprise needs?
<Fido2 Dsom_ecs: yes, currently using warp 4 as a server
<BobStJohn Blackbird I don't see that sort of push coming in the near term
<BobStJohn I don't have the resource for that kind of launch
<BobStJohn That's one of the reasons I wanted to engage IBM Austin
<BobStJohn Persaude them that eCS and be a "go to" platform for OS/2 users
<BobStJohn In my long term vision .. I can see a new OS out about four years from now that still has components of OS/2
<BobStJohn Support for OS/2 applications ... support for Win32 .. through Odin type api support
<Blackbird Your Wisemanager solution would be very attractive to them....would it not...
<DSOM_eCS Fido2 - Good question. I think that at the moment Win9x PC can see long files name on Warp 4/eCS...but I don't think it currently works the other way aroung.
<BobStJohn Support for *ix and Linux through xfree86 and EverBlue type stuff
<BobStJohn Ever since Tivoli took over WSOD .. I figure WiseManager is the best Managed Client solution with an OS/2 base
<Skip Bob - do you think that IBM support will be there for device drivers and fixes?
<Fido2 Dsom_ecs: thats right my win pc can see lfn on warp, but not the other way around. It would nice to see lfn on the win boxes
<BobStJohn I think IBM will continue with device drivers for the next few years ... but not sure what those drivers will be
<Skip Will IBM just maintain OS/2 or will they enhance it?
<BobStJohn I think we'll have to stir the DD pot ourselves.
<greg2 Bob...re Skip...yes...this is absolutely crucial
<BobStJohn Look at the OS/2 users today .. focus is on several hundred ( 500 to 800 depending on who you talk to ) with several million licenses.
<BobStJohn Any enhancements will be focused on that user base
<BobStJohn And that user base has been told by IBM to expect very little ..
<mandie and expanding that user base
<BobStJohn expanding that user base is our ambition
<greg2 WE can expand the user base, if we can support them
<BobStJohn But we don't see it as expanding the OS/2 user base
<Blackbird But will IBM be telling them about you BoB
<BobStJohn eComStation needs to build off OS/2 .. go beyond OS/2
<mandie Blackbird: go wash your hands with SOAP!
<BobStJohn OS/2 remains the engine .. but OS/2 won't be enough
<WarpedOS2 Bob ,,, if you depend on IBM to enhance warp then how you going to build off of OS/2?
<BobStJohn WarpedOS2 We don't intend to be entirely dependent on IBM.
<greg2 yes...but if my customer gets new devices, and mfgr doesn't write drivers, then I hafta...and right now, I can't
<BobStJohn One of the things we plan to do in the next six months is to clearly demonstrate that we can control the destiny of eCS
<greg2 how will we address this..??
<mandie then you need to contract someone to write the dd
<WarpedOS2 Well then bob does that mean you will continue with driver updates yourself if IBM petters out??
<BobStJohn greg2 It becomes difficult to talk about device and hardware support without being specific
<BobStJohn But part of this goes back to why we want to position eCS and managed client computing as a service
<greg2 ...most hardware mfgrs are NOT writing OS2 drivers, now..
<BobStJohn When you provide a service, you have great latitude to control the software and hardware used
<greg2 yes...we can do it ourselves, if we have the references..etc
<BobStJohn Keeping in mind that when CDP comes in and does payroll ... no one says "hey .. that's not windows"
<BobStJohn That's just the payroll machine.
<greg2 true
<BobStJohn That's the key to "outsourcing" the computing environment ... all or part of it.
<BobStJohn There are some talented DD authors .. and I'm trying to get the DDK included in the eCS product .. that might help development outside IBM.
<WarpedOS2 Sounds like the IBM mentaliity.....Just kidding...
<greg2 yes..
<BobStJohn Hey .. there's a lot of IBM in me. I just retired the first of this month
<greg2 the DDK, etc..and references..online
<StevenL Bob, I wish that were true. The shops I know want ADP or PayChex to talk to their Windows apps and take data from there Windows apps...
<StevenL It's what they have and what they know.
<WarpedOS2 Hmmm retired...I would like to retire from computers... :-)
<BobStJohn Yes .. some sort of reference database .. and a community of channel partners helping each other
<BobStJohn OS/2 community has always been very collaborative
<greg2 nothing wrong with IBM mentality, just that George don't talk to charlie, over there
<greg2 yes...Bob, sort of like my TechRepublic....
<BobStJohn StevenL As long as folks are specific .. I think we can work through those issues. That's one of the reasons we have Smart Suite and Star Office .. to facilitate the exchange with MS.
<BobStJohn However, I do think that the next 18 to 36 months are going to see big changes in how businesses handle this. Fact is, using MS office in a networked environment .. isn't easy. And the Internet is a networked environment.
<StevenL I have both and am aware of their capabilities.
<BobStJohn I think IBM has that right, with the application frameworks story.
<StevenL I would like to see the asp/service model take hold...
<StevenL There's plenty of marketing blurb out there. It's hard to know how much is real implementations.
<Skip I subscribe to Developers Toolbox (nee Connection). The content of this is to the point that there is less and less OS/2 content. Coupled with the lag (or outright dropping) of tools, compilers, etc. that emerge from IBM for OS/2, some of these tools are getting dated. Also, SOM has not been supported by IBM since 1997. This is very troubling. How can things be developed with out the proper support from IBM??
<BobStJohn I don't talk ASP .. too weak. I talk TSP .. Total Solution Provider. "Sit down, tell me what you need .. I'll build it".
<BobStJohn Then .. if they want Windows .. give it to them .. and price accordingly.
<WarpedOS2 Bob maybe I need a lesson on marketing the IBM way then....
<greg2 Bob that's a new name for Consultant...
<BobStJohn You can do eCS for a lot less than you can do Windows .. and if they are willing to pay the extra frieght ... you may still come out ahead .. now worse, anyway.
<greg2 always has been
<BobStJohn no worse
<BobStJohn no worse
<BobStJohn Anyway .. we appreciate the need for Windows .. that's why we work with Micho.
<BobStJohn We expect to be able to do remote boot of Win98 .. maybe NT .. drag and drop software deployment to Windows Workstations from WiseManager, which remains and OS/2 application .. running over the WSeb.
<StevenL I can see this working for new deployments. I find the value proposition harder to justify for existing installation.
<BobStJohn This Windows workstation will be much more reliable than "normal" windows ... and it will be easier to migrate off Windows when the time comes
<BobStJohn StevenL Well, let's wait for the next I LOVE YOU virus .. and go back and talk to those account, then.
<StevenL It won't be me. I don't do Windows support...
<greg2 if you can carry this off, then I can remotely service ALL my customers, from one box, without ever having to use Boot Manager
<StevenL However, I do plan on talking to them...
<StevenL They use Citrix now and eCS has possibilities to compete there.
<WarpedOS2 I am doing remote admin now with Warp / eCS client to Netware....console1, telnet....etc
<DSOM_eCS Citrix and Terminal Server tend to be very top heavy.
<BobStJohn Yeah .. I'd like to compete with some Citrix accounts ... that's not cheap .. and it isn't very scalable .. and, from what I hear .. not very reliable, either.
<WarpedOS2 Well, Bob run some examples of eCS over Citrix and see how it adds up, if it is doable then there might be some sales here!
<BobStJohn warpedos2 Better to start with a specific account and application and design from there. There's more than one way to do this.
<BobStJohn Have we left all the "home users" behind?
<mandie no, just sitting on the side lines listening :)
<greg2 Bob...most of us ARE home users....when we are'nt servicing our clients
<Blackbird Over my head....
<BobStJohn greg2 me 2
<Blackbird might have to go watch ELECTION results.....:)
<BobStJohn Well, the thing is ... we need to define an area where we can succeed.
<greg2 but...economics has forced me to go to other OSs,
<Fido2 From what I heard citrix + win nt are costly
<greg2 Fido2, exactly
<BobStJohn In the general home user market ... we can't ... suppport, preloads, dealer channel .. etc.
<greg2 yes
<greg2 need this
<BobStJohn Maybe we can work on the "Internet Appliance" market ... as an embedded OS .. but still have some work to make that work.
<BobStJohn But .. in the line of business environment .. the business desktop .. managed by a cadre of fee service consultants ..I think we can be very successful.
<greg2 yes...
<Fido2 I use warp 4 in a commercial environment, it cost less to run it, that if I when the nt path.
<greg2 my bag, now
<BobStJohn I say this because we can help these people create a recurring revenue stream
<BobStJohn and the key to that is controlling costs ... and Windows is not a "controlling costs" kind of a deal.
<greg2 what do you mean..":these people"...this helps ME...
<greg2 yes
<BobStJohn greg2 Well, maybe *you* are one of *those* people
<greg2 yes...
<BobStJohn OK ... it got real quiet again ... am I alone?
<Fido2 no
<greg2 :_
<Blackbird that's what I was wondering as well
<Sector All alone again
<Blackbird maybe time for a trivial trivia...
<greg2 ...we need lotsa this stuff posted, so we can refer to it later, in detail
<BobStJohn Sector Naturally ...
<greg2 so...we need the urls posted maybe on voice site
<Fido2 Bob: With the upg plan, besides the ibm cont. packs what else does it include?
<RumpleS What else do you have in the pipeline following the release of eCS GA?
<Blackbird How long will the upgrade be available to warp 4 users???
<BobStJohn Fido2 There's a good write up by Walter Metcalf on About.com .. what is in the box. Though there will be more with the GA.
<DSOM_eCS I'm sure that someone is capturing a complete log.
<Sector Till the end of support for Warp 4
<Skip Bob-Can you comment on the future of OS/2 develment tools.
<mandie sector: logging?
<Sector Of course
<mandie ata boy :)
<greg2 good
<Blackbird I have one running as well
<Blackbird don't know why thought....:)
<BobStJohn RumpleS I don't want to get into futures ... but we are working on enhancements to the UI .. that won't happen in one pass. Enhancements to the multimedia .. including the possibility of DVD.
<RumpleS I wasn't thinking long term, just short term thinking at this time.
<RLD Bob, I read in the NGs that IBM is doing one more round with VAC. Have you heard any more about that?
<Fido2 Bob: Sorry I meant the upg plans
<BobStJohn RLD Only what you heard ... but keep in mind that even IBM Austin ... needs that stuff .. and they can lobby better than I can.
<RLD :)
<RumpleS So immediate enhancements (marketting type stuff) to make the package more attractive then.
<BobStJohn Fido2 I don't understand what you mean .. upgrade .. we plan to refresh by the end of 2001 .. that will be in synch with the next MCP.
<BobStJohn We also expect to deliver enhancement though the upgrade protection subscription.
<Fido2 I was referring to the upgrade protection subscription. Sorry I wasn't clear about it
<BobStJohn The feed back we have gotten focused on updating the user interface ... and improving the MM .. the Internet support .. which can also involve MM. DVD was another .. we are also looking at dhcp boot .. a remote boot over the Inet
<WarpedOS2 The MM updating ....? will that include PCI sound card support...better?
<BobStJohn Is that MM or device support? But device support is also on the list. Frankly, you are getting into an area I would rather leave to Kim.
<BobStJohn BTW .. everyone know to get to the ecs newsgroups .. eh?
<BobStJohn news.ecomstation.nl
<Blackbird I do now
<WarpedOS2 Was it down lately?
<WarpedOS2 I tried to get to it and all I got were errors.
<RumpleS Have the newsgroups been topic grouped yet?
<BobStJohn I don't think so .. but I think that if you subscribed earlier .. you need to unsubscribe .. then subscribe again, anew
<RLD its much more stable since they went with changi instead of lotus notes
<RumpleS The quantity of email I was receieving was overwhelming.
<mandie egroups
<BobStJohn yes .. there are several topics including GUI, support for Smart Suite, StarOffice, network, install, advocacy
<DSOM_eCS Yes, I'm behind in my mail as well.
<BobStJohn eGroups is the discussion group .. I'm talking about the news server
<BobStJohn We could add groups for "requirements" ... and "multimedia"
<DSOM_eCS Yes...accessible via Netscape and ProNews and others.
<BobStJohn I use PMMail and PMI News .. works fine.
<DSOM_eCS Most Usenet clients should work.
<BobStJohn All signal .. no noise
<JoSt Any info on the GUI-update-project headed by Mensys? deadlines and such?
<BobStJohn JoSt We just want to get something done by GA ... but it's clear we can't be finished with all that we want to do by GA. This is something we can discuss on the news group
<Blackbird pronews can't find it ...
<RumpleS Have any decisions been made as to the cut-off for GA and what will and won't make it in?
<BobStJohn MADvirc Remember to contact me so you get your prize for the trivia question
<BobStJohn RumpleS No .. the cut offs are not firm.
<BobStJohn That is part of what the second preview will help determine
<MADodel What prize?
<BobStJohn Again, the second preview is very limited and controlled
<BobStJohn MADvirc I dunno .. what do you want?
<BobStJohn I mean, I could over you eCS .. but you probably have a copy.
<JoSt Is it possible to localize the eCS specific components (WiseMachine etc.) for the NLS versions? Maybe as a volunteer effort for the smaller languages???
<BobStJohn over is amended to read offer
<RumpleS And you can't have SN #1 either 8-)
<MADodel I have 3, or at least I bought 3. The prev2 is not that much different from prev1. The boot selection isn't quite done.
<mandie MAD: then send one my way!
<BobStJohn JoSt I don't know. That is a discussion worth having. I'd like to get Joachim Benjamins involved in it.
<RLD my prev came #8 written with blue marker on it . *snicker*
<BobStJohn MADvirc Then you need to tell me what Santa can bring ...
<JoSt BobStJohn: Maybe we could have some Mensys reps. in a future (more Euro friendly timed) chat??
<BobStJohn I need to break for five minutes .. need to tuck in the young'uns
<MADodel Jost: Good idea
<WarpedOS2 Bob, what is the ecs news group again?
<RLD news.ecomstation.nl
<Blackbird @home news server can't find the news group....????!!!!!
<WarpedOS2 thanks RLD
<JoSt Blackbird: They only exist on the Mensys server!
<Blackbird searched....no find ....
<Blackbird ok how do I get to it...
<BobStJohn I'm back .. until they start fighting.
<JoSt Blackbird: Add news.ecomstation.nl as a new server to your nntp client!
<RLD Blackbird: try it with netscape, with news.ecomstation.nl in the location feild
<MADodel blackbird: what news client are you using?
<BobStJohn I think we can do a Euro friendly chat and I know that Mensys would participate.
<Blackbird pronews
<Blackbird ok jost
<MADodel Set up a new server for news.ecomstation.nl
<DSOMber1 Greetings.
<kidmarc Yes it is a bit of a strain Bob, to stay awake
<greg2 wb
<Sector Hmmm, how about an earlier chat on the usuall Monday"
<Rat-Salad goodnight
<MADodel Next Monday is a Speakup with Sundial
<BobStJohn Well, I'm thinkkng of something like 1PM PST on a weekday .. we might get Kim involved.
<MADodel It will be a special one. Watch for the announcement in a day or two
<mandie a "very
<BobStJohn That would be .. what ... 4PM EST .. what time is that in .... well, over there.
<mandie oops..."very" special one
<mandie around 9pm?
<JoSt BobStJohn: that would be around 23:00 CET
<kidmarc 10 pm Central Europe time
<BobStJohn Too late ...
<Fido2 There is site www.timeanddate.com that works out the time it your country compared to other times
<BobStJohn OK ... 10 am PST, noon CST, and 1PM EST ... and 7 PM C E time?
<BobStJohn Maybe on a Friday?
<Sector That would be 6:00pm GMT / UT, could work...
<Blackbird Set up a new server for news.ecomstation.nl >>>>tried this...the connection is shown but no action...
<BobStJohn Wir Deustche sprechen
<mandie I won't be able to attend, but I'll send out an announcement once decided
*  Sector still thinks we should keep em on Monday's (We just tried one on a Friday...)
<kidmarc Ja richtig!
<MADodel Oh, what version of Pronews are you using Blackbird? Only 1.5+ supports multiple servers
<Blackbird got it......GOT IT......
<Sector Congradulations
<StevenL Friday would have been fine if the guest of honor had arrived. :-)
<mandie :)
<kidmarc Uhhh... what happened Friday? Or should I what didn't happened?
<kidmarc should I say...
<mandie kidmarc: there was a speakup on eCS but our guest was detained
<BobStJohn OK .. apolowologologies .. I was on a plane .. didn't .. I over booked.
<JoSt Maybe it would be a good idea to post the announcment of the euro-friendly chat to some of the national OS/2 newsgroup in Europe!
<kidmarc So I didn't miss anything... eh?
<BobStJohn But .. I like the earlier start time ... 10 AM PST, noon CST, 1 PM EST .. and early evening in Europe ..
<mandie Bob: so do you want me to send out an announcement for this Friday or next Friday?
<BobStJohn Do it on a weekday .. and I think I can get Kim to participate ..
<BobStJohn Can be this Friday .. can be next Friday ... I'm here to serve!
<Blackbird Can't be LAST FRiday....LOL
<BobStJohn Well .. it *could* be last Friday .. but that would be wrong ...
<WarpedOS2 Bob, and everybody...I gotta run....I hope to talk to ya this week...maybe
<Sector Hmmm, so BobStJohn is now a server"
<WarpedOS2 bye mandie...
<BobStJohn Sector You need to get out more.
<Blackbird nite Warpedos2
<mandie Bob: I'll schedule for December 8 at 10am PST
<BobStJohn So, we're shutting down?
<Sector But where would I go"
<mandie see ya :)
<Sector No need to shutdown
<BobStJohn Sector Ask someone who cares .. ?
<RumpleS Anywhere but that computer maybe Sector!
<StevenL Sector, there is the possibility of leaving town...
<WarpedOS2 shlaf gut...everyone..
<StevenL There's always SCOUG meetings.
<BobStJohn gute nacht ... bis morgan
<StevenL Ja, das gut.
<Blackbird What the heck is a shlaf gut????
<BobStJohn sleep well
<DSOM_eCS German night at #VOICE.
<RumpleS I need to get out of AU more! 8-)
<Fido2 pst = pacific standard time
<StevenL RumpleS, the day is young yet down there...
<mandie Blackbird: it's what you get after drinking alot of german beer :)
<BobStJohn Well, I appreciate the time, the attention, the business ... and, as I used to say when IBM was my employer ... don't be a stranger .. I'm here to help (you) ...
<StevenL Who knows what could happen.
<JoSt I think it is Schlaf Gut!
<kidmarc It is
<mandie Bob: we appreciate what Serenity Systems is doing also....
<BobStJohn JoSt points for effort
<BobStJohn mandie Thanks ...
<BobStJohn I'm going to have a nice bowl of ice cream .. don't tell Chrissy ..or my wife.
<kidmarc Tschu 
<MADodel OK, we will try to get a transcript of this up on the VOICE site tomorrow
<BobStJohn tschusss?
<kidmarc Hey the sharp S worked!
<Sector But can we tell your wife about Chrissy"
<mandie lol
<JoSt kidmarc: Didn't get through to me!
<BobStJohn kidmarc Not on my display it didn't
<Blackbird or mine
<kidmarc Ah damn
<StevenL Nor here.
<BobStJohn Sector Sure ... but don't tell Rat
<Fido2 what is city is on the pacific side of usa?
<greg2 got here
<mandie BobStJohn: thanks for coming tonight and I'll get out an announcement for Dec. 8 at 10a PST
<greg2 San Francisco
<StevenL Los Angeles?
<MADodel There's a small town called Los Angeles
<Sector LA, San Fransisco, San Diego
<BobStJohn Fido2 Kim is in Monterey Park, near LA
<Blackbird got a little black square to the right of the U
<BobStJohn I'm gone ... I am what was ..
<StevenL GTIrc showed nothing.
<Fido2 need to work backwards to fine the time it is here
<mandie abel!!
<MADodel Also don't forget next Monday night at 8PMEST, we have a Speakup with Sundial Systems
<Sector 10:00am PST = 06:00pm GMT / UT
<mandie fido: where are you?
<StevenL Get Goran Ivankovic's World Clock.
<Sector Hi Abel, you scared BobStJohn...
<mandie MAD: that's going to be a fun night!
<Abel apparently..
<MADodel VIRC showed [22:24:36] Tschu 
<kidmarc Tschuss
<Sector Fido2 your 17 hours ahead of PST
<Fido2 4am saturday
<Fido2 it would be
<mandie going to run.....
<Sector Bye mandie
<StevenL I show Synday at 2:30 or so now.
<Abel cya mandie.
<mandie thanks to everyone for attending tonight! Don't miss Monday's speakup with Sundial :)