SpeakUp with Sundial Systems from 12/07/98

[20:14:45] <mandie> We'd like to welcome Randell Flint and Rollin White from Sundial Systems
[20:14:57] <mandie> They will be discussiing DBExpert tonight and after an intro, they will be open for questions
[20:15:04] <mandie> Randell, Rollin...it's all yours
[20:15:20] <rollin> Randell, why don't you describe DBE?
[20:15:31] <randell> Why me...
[20:15:36] <randell> Okay...
[20:16:05] <randell> DbExpert is, in the most simple description, a database.
[20:16:23] <randell> Unfortunately, "database" can mean lots of different things
[20:16:43] <randell> to lots of different people... so we spend a fair amount
[20:17:02] <randell> of time trying to explain what DBExpert is *relative* to
[20:17:09] <randell> other database products...
[20:17:28] <randell> So let's start out with what it's *not*...
[20:18:07] <randell> It is *not* an industrial-strength database manager like IBM's DB2.
[20:18:43] <randell> It is *not* a REXX or C library that you call from programs you write.
[20:19:13] <randell> It is *not* a simple "flat-file" data manager.
[20:19:23] <randell> So what is it?
[20:19:48] <randell> Basically, it's the same "kind" of product as Approach or Access.
[20:20:25] <randell> That means, it's a program that you use to "build" applications
[20:20:39] <randell> that people can use to access and manipulate data.
[20:20:58] <randell> That data can be in some other database system like DB2 or
[20:21:32] <randell> it can be stored in dBase-type files and manipulated by
[20:21:46] <randell> DBExpert without any other database software installed.
[20:22:13] <randell> Much of the "design" is point-and-click so you don't need
[20:22:27] <randell> to be a programmer to develop something on interest
[20:22:45] <randell> or something that can be useful... however, DBExpert
[20:22:55] <randell> does support macros... and the macro language is
[20:23:17] <randell> REXX... so you *can* produce some very heavy duty
[20:23:28] <randell> functionality if you wish.
[20:23:46] <randell> Basically, the way you develop something is as follows...
[20:23:58] <randell> First, you decide what data you need.
[20:24:20] <randell> The data takes the form of tables that you create
[20:24:36] <randell> in DBExpert or that you "attach to" if they were created with
[20:24:51] <randell> another dBase-compatible app or if they are stored in
[20:24:59] <randell> a database like DB2.
[20:25:15] <randell> You don't need to get your tables designed precisely
[20:25:32] <randell> right "up front" (like you do in some database products)
[20:25:50] <randell> since you can easily *change* the design of the table
[20:26:13] <randell> once you have it or even once it has data in it.
[20:26:34] <randell> Then, you can enter and manuipulate the data directly int
[20:26:47] <randell> the tables... or you can create on-screen forms to use
[20:26:58] <randell> to display and update the data.
[20:27:11] <randell> When you want to "slice and dice" the data...
[20:27:29] <randell> you create queries on one or more tables.
[20:27:49] <randell> You can create your queries visually or, for the SQL literate,
[20:28:08] <randell> you can create them using SQL... and DBExpert automatically
[20:28:24] <randell> translates back and forth between the visual design and
[20:28:47] <randell> the SQL. That way, you can even use it to "brush up" on
[20:28:53] <randell> SQL if you want.
[20:29:07] <randell> Printed reports are created in much the same way as on-screen
[20:29:25] <randell> forms... Both can have "sub form/reports" to combine
[20:29:48] <randell> things together and reports have full grouping/subtotals/
[20:29:55] <randell> group headers/footers, etc.
[20:30:11] <randell> Then, if you need/want, you can also create macros, in REXX,
[20:30:26] <randell> to manipulate the data. You can call macros directly
[20:30:41] <randell> or you can reference then in queries or you can call
[20:30:57] <randell> them from "events" on forms (such as when the user
[20:31:19] <randell> pushes a button or when the form is about to update
[20:31:42] <randell> the database or when a new record is being displayed, etc.
[20:31:55] <randell> That's it in a nutshell.
[20:32:08] <randell> (That wore me out.)
[20:32:24] <WarpGuru> Big NUT!!!
[**:**:**] * eTronik puts his hand in the air...
[20:32:52] <randell> Tasty nut (keeping with the Sundial food themes)
[20:33:12] <mandie> hmm..relish, buns :)
[20:33:25] <randell> Mandie, ok for eTronik to ask his question?
[**:**:**] * Luc steps out for a coffee.
[20:33:37] <mandie> sure, if you're finished
[20:33:48] <eTronik> ok here goes
[20:34:53] <eTronik> you mentioned DBF and DB2 as data DBExpert could access, what other major DBMS vendor dadta can you access and what technology do you use for that ?? ODBC ??
[20:36:03] <randell> The current set of supported database formats is limited to those that were in effect when we took over the product from Designer Software back in 1997.
[**:**:**] * eTronik thinks a cofee would be nice...
[20:36:30] <mandie> eTronik: Sundial doesn't do java!
[20:36:31] <randell> That means we support most of the DBF variants (such as FoxPro, etc).
[20:36:48] <randell> There is some support for Oracle.
[20:37:02] <randell> There is good support for all DB2 versions.
[20:37:06] <eTronik> some support ?? to what extent ?
[20:37:36] <randell> The technology is ODBC for dBase and Oracle, direct interface for DB2.
[20:38:23] <randell> Oracle support is for versions 6 and 7 only, not 8. For 6 and 7 the support is at the same level as for DBF and DB2.
[20:38:39] <eTronik> do you plan on staying with that level of support ?? or improving that ??
[20:38:59] <randell> (Actually, it *may* work with Oracle 8, but we haven't tried it.)
[20:39:38] <eTronik> I don't think there's Oracle 8 for OS/2...
[20:40:05] <randell> Most of our individual customers are using in in dBase-mode and most of our corporate customers are using it with DB2.
[20:40:18] <eTronik> yes ! I can understand that :-)
[20:40:18] <rollin> What other databases would you like supported?
[20:40:37] <randell> The other somewhat amazing thing is that you can actually use
[20:40:49] <eTronik> oh I was thinking more in terms of Oracle and eventually mySQL
[20:41:24] <randell> it with both DB2 and dBase tables at the same time... moving info back and forth or combining stuff from multiple sources.
[20:41:42] <eTronik> can I jump to the next question ??
[20:41:53] <rollin> Sure.
[20:41:57] <eTronik> :-) that is super no doubt about it !!
[20:42:44] <eTronik> any toughts about JDBC support ?? would help to gather more support... but OTOH
[20:43:05] <randell> Ok, maybe this will sound kinda stupid...
[20:43:18] <randell> But *why* would you want *JDBC* support?
[20:43:21] <eTronik> yes ? :-)
[20:43:34] <eTronik> not that supid !! :-)
[20:44:23] <eTronik> just that it would help DBExpert be considered by Java developers under the OS/2 platfform (bigger developer user base) ?? don't you agree ?
[20:44:42] <randell> Hold on a minute...
[20:45:14] <randell> First, DBExpert is OS/2 native and thus wouldn't run on another platform.
[20:45:43] <randell> Second, remeber that it is *primarily* a product for creating
[20:45:46] <eTronik> sure! that was my first reaction to my question ... hence the OTOH but...
[20:45:55] <randell> database oriented applications.
[20:46:48] <randell> That means there is no real advantage of a JDBC interface to DBExpert over a JDBC interface directly to DBF files or directly to DB2.
[20:47:11] <eTronik> ok I get that! and your primary target are "quick" and "dirty" applictions off an DB2 database no ??
[20:47:32] <randell> Well, not exactly quick and dirty...
[20:47:52] <eTronik> randell: you totally correct !!
[20:47:54] <randell> but applications that you would not ordinarily take the
[20:48:11] <randell> time to write in C, C++, or some other "coventional"
[20:48:17] <eTronik> lol ! I didn' mean quick and dirty :-) I meant "quick" and "dirty" :-))
[20:48:31] <randell> language and "GUI-oriented" enviornment.
[20:48:57] <randell> Our corporate customers, for instance, let departments
[20:49:15] <eTronik> can DB-Expert access data on a remote DB2 database say on an AS/400 ??
[20:49:26] <randell> or indiviuals, write the apps they need that there IT
[20:49:41] <randell> departments don't have time to... and they still get
[20:49:53] <randell> DB2 access in the process.
[20:50:08] <randell> For remote DB2 access...
[20:50:24] <randell> you need to have the DB2/2 or UDB client setup to acess the
[20:50:36] <eTronik> I'll have to leave and I'll be right back !
[20:50:44] <madodel> Is DBExpert a text based application developer? or PM? I ask since you mention the '"GUI-oriented" enviornment.'
[20:50:44] <eTronik> unregistered OpenChat :-(
[20:50:46] <randell> remote sytem... once this done, you can access everything
[20:50:51] <randell> from DBExpert.
[20:51:09] <eTronik> ok got it !!
[20:51:17] <rollin> madodel, definately PM! You can build the forms using a traditional "dialog" editor model.
[20:51:32] <eTronik> DBExpert must have a good following on IBM based shops no ??
[20:51:37] <madodel> OK, just wanted to be clear
[20:52:06] <rollin> Certainly it is used with DB/2 alot. But a lot of people use it at home or in small businesses.
[20:52:13] <rollin> Other questions?
[20:52:45] <mandie> it has alot of features, which I'm sure I've only touched on...
[20:52:58] <mandie> I setup the Warpstock 98 volunteer database using DBE
[20:53:06] <rollin> Was it difficult?
[20:53:17] <mandie> and also maintain the GDOUG database with it also
[20:53:18] <randell> Mandie, how did I miss that?
[20:53:20] <mandie> not at all
[20:53:35] <mandie> randell: I initially set it up...I don't know what they did when I passed it on
[20:53:39] <rollin> Have we ever paid you money to say that? Have we ever met (well, yes I guess we have).
[20:53:44] <mandie> lol
[20:53:46] <eTronik> randell: what kind of support there is for referential integrity ??
[20:54:09] <randell> This might get a little technical...
[20:54:16] <eTronik> :-)
[20:54:44] <Luc> As an end user, I'm interested in how DBX will handle my Access databases?
[20:54:57] <eTronik> I don't mind :-) we could throw in a couple explanations :-)
[20:55:04] <randell> Basically, DBExpert *itself* has no support for referential integrity because it's just not that easyto make it happen across all the database environment...
[20:55:22] <randell> especially, say between a dBase file and a DB2 table *together*.
[20:55:25] <randell> That said...
[20:55:35] <eTronik> yes I would not expect that across DBMS's
[20:56:00] <randell> it plays by the rules when a DBMS, like DB2, has referential
[20:56:23] <randell> integrity rules defined on a table. Thus you can't setup
[20:56:58] <randell> the rules via DBExpert... but it will act as agent to enforce them whenever you use a table/form/query etc.
[20:57:17] <eTronik> got it ! so how would I enforce integrity within a DBF based environment ??
[20:57:56] <rollin> Luc, DBE will read your Access DBF files, including indicies.
[20:58:30] <eTronik> but probably not your MS Access files :-)
[20:58:38] <randell> eTronik... you basically have to do it yourself by writing the appropriate macros and wiring them to the correct events, etc... not a simple task.
[20:58:52] <eTronik> aargh !! :-)
[21:00:01] <eTronik> randell: you could include some Rexx based integrity plugins no ?? or integrity verification templates ...
[21:00:03] <randell> Luc, yes... if I recall correctly, "native" access files are a proprietary format that we can't access (no pun intende) but I belive it provide a way to "export" standard DBF files.
[21:01:06] <Luc> That's just tables and indices. What about forms, reports?
[21:02:12] <randell> eTronik... much as I'd like to... there are a whole bunch of examples/"plug-ins" on people's wish lists and we just haven't had the time to get to that type of thing... our current DBExpert "investment" centers on the on-going improvement of the base product itself.
[21:02:33] <eTronik> Luc: what you want is probably just within the reach of Microsoft alone !!
[21:02:45] <eTronik> randell: I understand that perfectly !!
[21:02:47] <rollin> Luc, those are definately proprietary :) I don't think I've seen the Access format documented anywhere.
[21:03:24] <randell> As far as I know Rollin is correct.
[21:03:47] <randell> There are no "standards" that describe forms, reports, queries, etc.
[21:03:48] <eTronik> ok nother topic !! any simple or minimalistic support for BLOBs ?? :-)
[21:04:20] <randell> Thus each similar product uses it's own proprietary format for that... DBExpert has it's own format as well.
[21:04:33] <randell> No support for BLOBs at this time.
[21:04:52] <eTronik> randell: what if I just want to play an external Video file ?
[21:05:07] <eTronik> rane: file-system based file...
[21:05:10] <randell> Basically, you need to keep it external...
[21:05:18] <mandie> ok, that doesn't sound like a food group...what is BLOBs?
[21:05:33] <eTronik> mandie: BLOB = Binary large object
[21:05:39] <mandie> ok :)
[21:05:50] <randell> Keep the file name in the database and use a macro (or whatever) to launch the appropriate viewer when the need arises.
[21:06:03] <eTronik> mandie: videos, audio, word documents, etc tetc
[21:06:09] <rollin> The same that ships with DBE does this.
[21:06:14] <rollin> opps same=sample.
[21:06:41] <eTronik> ok what about rpesentation widgets ??
[21:06:52] <eTronik> oops, presentation widgets
[21:06:56] <randell> Oh, I probably should have mentioned this sooner...
[21:07:12] <randell> It's obvious to *us* but not to everyone else.
[21:07:35] <rollin> eTronik, DBE includes support for all of the common controls, buttons, radio buttons, lists, entry fields, etc.
[21:07:43] <mandie> rollin: are you referring to the graphics on the Sales Summary example?
[21:07:46] <eTronik> any grid type thing ??
[21:07:47] <randell> DBExpert *is* network aware and works fine with multiple user sharing the same tables, etc, on a server.
[21:09:13] <randell> Rollin... I'm not sure the currently shipping example does that...
[21:09:43] <Luc> Does it provide REXX hooks to the controls?
[21:09:43] <eTronik> can you describe very lighly how to build a form with a parent-child relationship ??
[21:10:03] <randell> When I said no support for BLOBs I kinda lied...
[21:10:09] <rollin> Randell, you're right I think it is in one of the examples in the online help. DbeLoadPicture.
[21:10:26] <madodel> Does it do file or record level locking? so multiple users can't update the same record/file at the same time?
[21:10:32] <rollin> Luc, yes there are events for each control and the form itself.
[21:11:12] <rollin> eTronik, basically, you create your subform, then create your main form with a subform control. One of it's properties is which field to link on.
[21:11:13] <randell> We don't support BLOB objects defined in DB2 for example... but you can have "small" BLOBs (up to 32K each) in DBExpert tables.
[21:11:53] <randell> mandie, you an have file *or* record locking... your choice.
[21:12:17] <eTronik> roli: can I link on mode thanone field ?? and does the form handle all the sincronization work between the parent and the child ??
[21:12:45] <eTronik> sheesh pardon my spelling...
[21:13:04] <madodel> That was me. great, so the programmer doesn't have to code semaphores or whatever they call them on the pc.
[21:13:14] <rollin> Linking on multiple fields would require some macros. Otherwise the form control does handle the synx.
[21:13:58] <randell> Sorry, madodel, my mistake. Yep, it takes care of all the details for you.
[21:14:45] <eTronik> rollin: can you elaborate on the "some macros" part :-))
[21:14:47] <mandie> I might add that it comes with a nice manual...lots of examples
[21:14:50] <randell> eTronik, and you can have multiple subforms, and subforms within subforms... etc.
[21:15:17] <rollin> Etronik, basically, the form control handles the primary field, then you would use a two or three line macro to move the record based on the additional fields.
[21:15:59] <eTronik> ok I seem to have the features down :-)
[21:16:11] <Luc> mandie: how well is the REXX interface documented?
[21:16:24] <eTronik> what are you currently improving in the product ?
[21:16:24] <randell> There are also time when you don't really even need a subform to do the linking... the listboxes and comboboxes in DBExpert support multiple "columns" on information so that's all you need for many of the simple cases.
[21:16:36] <rollin> Fairly well. There is a reference based on category or alphabetically. You can of course search it as well.
[21:16:38] <mandie> luc: let me take a look...I haven't gone compeletly through the manual
[21:16:56] <randell> We are *always* improving the product!
[21:17:09] <randell> As many long time DBExpert will tell you...
[**:**:**] * Abraxas has gone through the manual so much that the binding is broken and the pages are falling out :-(
[21:17:39] <randell> we'll make vast improvements to the overall reliabilty and stability of the product.
[21:17:46] <eTronik> I mean what specific aspect are you working on currently ?
[21:17:47] <rollin> The binding on my online help is wearing thin too.
[21:17:50] <mandie> abraxas: then you tell him...... :)
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> mandie I haven't even STARTED on Macros, yet :-)
[**:**:**] * Abraxas has to talk Swanee into teaching him REXX :-)))
[21:18:56] <randell> Alot of that major improvement can in 2.0.4 last year... we are currently at 2.0.6 and the next maintainance release, 2.0.7 will be out in the next few weeks.
[21:19:02] <mandie> luc: it guides you through step by step for creating a macro...the manual gives examples on about every feature
[21:19:11] <randell> (Yes, that it the first public mention of 2.0.7.)
[21:19:58] <mandie> hmm...I'm at 2.0.5....need to upgrade :)
[**:**:**] * Swanee says, (in the best sgt Schultz tradition) "I know NOTHING!"
[21:20:07] <madodel> Abraxas: then perhaps you should attend the REXX Speakup in January with Mike Cowlishaw. :-)
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> Oh, I'll be there, madodel
[21:20:31] <WarpGuru> Gee... my copy of DBExpert is at V1.0000000 :)
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> Even if I have to join from the beach
[21:20:34] <randell> If you have any 2.0.x version, the upgrade is a free download from out web site.
[21:20:38] <Luc> rollin: does it have some kind of internal editor for the REXX?
[21:20:54] <rollin> Luc, yes it's own Macro editor.
[21:20:58] <randell> WarpGuru, 1.0????
[21:21:11] <mandie> WarpGuru has been busy :)
[21:21:26] <Luc> I suppose I can use an external editor as well?
[21:21:47] <randell> I haven't heard of anybody haveing anything earlier than 1.0.8 in a very long time!
[21:22:16] <eTronik> what is the RAM requirements for DBE ??
[21:22:28] <rollin> Luc, unfortunately, there is no built-in support for an external editor. Suprisingly, it's rarely requested too. But it may be in a future version (it's on my list!).
[21:22:35] <randell> (The upgrade from 1.x to 2.x, including new manuals, is $49... the same price as it was from Designer Sofware before to took over the product.)
[21:22:47] <mandie> do I need the update and the runtime?
[21:23:29] <randell> mandie, you can update the full version and the runtime independently... but you only have the full version don't you?
[21:23:38] <mandie> randell: yes
[21:23:40] <Luc> rollin: yes, for some programmers an editor is sacred :-)
[21:24:15] <rollin> eTronik, it varies depending on your database and usage patterns. We use it on a 486 with not a lot of memory.
[21:24:55] <eTronik> so its a mean and lean front-end !!
[21:25:17] <randell> As with *all* Sundial products, the system requiremets (RAM included) are relatively light... typically, if you can run OS2/2 "well" you can run our apps just as well.
[21:25:18] <rollin> ALL of our products are lean. None of them take more than two disks.
[21:25:45] <Luc> rollin: almost incredible
[21:25:53] <randell> But lean does NOT mean low on function! (Just low on bloat.)
[21:26:37] <randell> We believe in programming the old fashioned way...
[21:26:44] <rollin> One bit at a time.
[21:26:47] <eTronik> What do you plan to improve functionality-wise in the near future ??
[21:26:51] <WarpGuru> randell Yeah 1.00000000
[21:27:00] <randell> we don't waste memory or disk space...
[21:27:15] <randell> and it *may* take us longer to get some of our updates out...
[21:27:29] <WarpGuru> I used it for doing some neat things with imported delimited ASCII files.
[21:27:54] <randell> but we release no software before it is ready, well-tested, and suited for the task at hand.
[21:27:56] <WarpGuru> I have not used it in a while, but I have some stuff coming up that I can use it for.
[21:28:28] <rollin> WarpGuru, it really has grown considerably since 1.00000
[21:28:32] <Luc> randell: What's the current price?
[21:28:50] <randell> eTronkik, 2.1 is in the works but I can't comment on specific funnctional improvements at thistime.
[21:28:56] <rollin> The current promotional price is $119, the list is $149.
[21:29:05] <eTronik> ok :-)
[21:29:13] <madodel> Is DBExpert Y2K compliant at this point?
[21:29:24] <randell> madodel, yes.
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> I have (what I hope is) a fairly simple question (I'm really new at DB design)
[21:30:19] <randell> To follow up a little more on the Y2K question, all Sundial products are currently Y2K compliant.
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> I'd like to create a form to allow a user to "pick" from a combo box, and output the results to a report
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> For example, "Give me a list of all customers, on a particular side of town, that have bought this certain product"
[21:31:09] <WarpGuru> I will have to pick up the latest version then
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> Then output the results to a report, that I can give to a "potential" customer
[21:31:28] <randell> Abraxas, piece 'o cake so to speak.
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> randell I thought it should be .... but like I said, I'm REALLY new to this
[21:33:12] <randell> WarpGuru, send a note to orders@sundialsystems.com or call the office (562-596-5121) 9-5 Pacific time. We will need to verify your 1.x license so it would be best if you send along your contact info first so we can check it against the Designer Software registration records.
[21:33:35] <randell> Abraxas,
[21:34:07] <WarpGuru> Thanks!! I will do that later this week.
[21:34:18] <randell> Abraxas, basically you create a form with the comboboxes you want a button that the user presses to "print" the report.
[21:35:02] <randell> The report is defined to be based on a particular query... the SQL version of about what you typed in English above.
[21:35:19] <Luc> randell: does DBE do print previews well?
[21:35:25] <rollin> Luc, yes.
[21:36:28] <randell> The "variables" in the query (which product, etc) are references (using a "Forms:ActiveForm:Product" type of notation) back to the form containing the comboboxes.
[21:37:24] <randell> When the Report is generated, it runs the query and dynamically changes the conditions in the query to include he values from the form.
[21:37:35] <Luc> randell: what's your view on HTML support in your products?
[21:38:12] <WarpGuru> Unfortunately, I still have the DBExpert registration card in the box... :(
[21:38:21] <rollin> Luc, that's a pretty broad question. Mesa will export to HTML. Relish has an add-on that will generate HTML. Clearlook and DBExpert - well, you'll see :)
[21:38:30] <randell> The comboboxes themselves can be filled in with list of values or the contents of a table or the results of yet another query.
[21:38:40] <eTronik> aha !! there's the 2.1 features !! :-))
[21:38:47] <randell> Abraxas, does that cover it?
[**:**:**] <Abraxas> randell Yes, thanks ..... that shows me exactly where to start
[21:39:04] <rollin> Warpguru, you can FAX it once you've placed your order. Mail your reg cards people!
[21:39:36] <randell> WarpGuru, do *not* mail the reg card to the address on the card!
[21:39:45] <eTronik> cab DBE generate graphs from data ??
[21:39:45] <WarpGuru> OK
[21:39:59] <randell> (The old Designer Software addresses are no longer valid.)
[21:40:03] <rollin> eTronik, it does have a graph control that generates basic bar and pie charts.
[21:40:29] <eTronik> I see
[21:40:53] <randell> Those of you that have old reg cards should mail them to DBExpert Registration, Sundial Systems Corporation, 909 Electric Ave, Suite 204, Seal Beach, CA 90740.
[21:41:02] <Luc> eTronik: that's where Mesa should come in...
[21:41:03] <eTronik> can DBE export data into other formats ?' say a spreadsheet format ?
[21:41:28] <randell> (You can fax us old reg cards as a temporary proof of ownership but we eventually need the card if at all possible.)
[21:41:31] <rollin> eTronik, it can export to various types of delimted ASCII, but not to any of the native spreadsheet formats.
[21:41:52] <mandie> <---DBE 2.0.6 in place :)
[21:42:07] <eTronik> delimited ascii should be enough for a spreadsheet to build a more complex graph
[21:42:33] <rollin> Yes, infact using the right macros, you could stuff your data into Mesa, then get it to graph it.
[21:43:11] <randell> Or you can go via the clipboard from DBExpert to Mesa (finally!)...
[21:43:13] <eTronik> are you targeting your products to any special kind of user ??
[21:43:37] <mandie> those that need a good database?
[21:43:37] <randell> eTronik, what *exactly* do you mean?
[21:44:03] <randell> Our customer base is the OS/2 community.
[21:44:42] <eTronik> I'd say your products are just the ticket for underpowered machines !! and don't take me wrong, there are plenty of users in that situation !!
[21:45:02] <rollin> They work great for overpowered machines too.
[21:45:17] <eTronik> and that is not underestimating your software... :-)
[21:45:20] <randell> But that means they work on high powered machines as well.
[21:45:48] <mandie> the splash screen on 2.0.6 opens and closes so fast that I couldn't even see the version
[21:46:41] <eTronik> problem is everybody uses Microsoft Office and nothing else
[21:47:05] <eTronik> and there's the need to share files with evryone else outside of the OS/2 world
[21:47:27] <rollin> DBF is one of the most widely used standards. Particularly over time.
[21:47:36] <Luc> eTronik: that's what standards are for
[21:47:38] <randell> Basically, we are targeting people that want productivty software that (1) works, (2) works well, (3) works well on OS/2, and (4) that is OS/2 explotive (not just OS/2 aware).
[21:48:07] <Luc> randell: I especially appreciate (4) :-)
[21:48:17] <eTronik> but the great opportunity is that you can say : You can do everything the other guy does without spending a fortune on a PII 450 Mhz with 128 MB RAM !!
[21:48:19] <randell> That's been our goal and strategy for all of the now over 10 years we've been in the OS/2 business.
[21:48:59] <mandie> anymore questions?
[21:49:13] <randell> Luc, (4) is what I'm personally most proud of.
[21:49:20] <eTronik> ok but that constitutes a particular kind of OS/2 user no ?? even a particular kind of POTENTIAL OS/2 user !!
[21:49:39] <randell> Well, I guess.
[21:49:58] <eTronik> BTW what specific OS/2 technologies your products use better than the rest ??
[21:50:11] <randell> You name em...
[21:50:22] <eTronik> Rexx you have mentined!
[21:50:23] <randell> Multi-threading...
[21:50:29] <randell> Multi-tasking...
[21:50:31] <eTronik> what about WPS ??
[21:50:41] <Luc> eTronik: compare with communicator 4.0, you'll see....
[21:50:54] <randell> Workplace shell integration...
[21:51:04] <randell> Drag-n-drop support...
[21:51:07] <eTronik> Luc: Communicator ??
[21:51:17] <randell> Efficent memory allocation...
[21:51:21] <Luc> eTronik: WPS : lines palette, gradient palette, ...
[21:51:28] <eTronik> randell: can you elaborate on te DnD and WPS integration ?? please :-)
[21:51:29] <randell> Effective use of the PM interface...
[21:52:03] <randell> and just about anything and everything that make OS/2 unique.
[21:52:12] <Luc> eTronik: I mean, where's RMB drag and drop in Communicator?
[21:53:11] <eTronik> we were discussing WPS integration ??
[21:53:17] <randell> The WPS integration isn't real extensive in DBExpert (yet) but it is in Relish, Mesa, and Clearlook. We can cover then in great detail during the Relish chat in Feb.
[21:53:51] <randell> Drag-and-drop is used throughout all our products.
[21:54:13] <randell> In DBExpert, you use it to create controls on forms/reports.
[21:54:39] <randell> You use it to select fields to include in queries and to set join conditions, etc.
[21:54:56] <eTronik> I see
[21:55:05] <randell> As we further "Sundialize" DBExpert, you'll be seeing even more.
[21:56:02] <mandie> looking forward to it :)
[21:56:33] <mandie> randell: it's almost 10 and I know you guys must be tired...are we ready for the trivia question?
[21:56:46] <randell> I guess I'm ready...
[21:57:07] <Luc> mandie: what question?
[21:57:17] <randell> First, the rules...
[21:57:17] <eTronik> just exploring an idea, can Sundial build a sub $1000 OS/2 system (mid-level Hw included) ??
[21:57:27] <mandie> Sundial will be providing a complimentary license to DBE for the person that answers the trivia question correctly
[21:57:32] <mandie> but...first the rules :)
[21:57:34] <randell> We are going to do it a little different this time.
[21:58:12] <eTronik> well with a complete Sundial suite included of course
[21:58:25] <randell> There will only be *one* question and if there is no correct answer we will hold the prize over to next time.
[21:58:49] <Luc> ok
[21:58:51] <mandie> fair enough :)
[21:59:07] <randell> Second, there are *two* possible correct answers to this question but one is better than the other so...
[21:59:24] <Luc> only one winner...
[21:59:25] <mandie> sounds like writing state boards!
[21:59:55] <randell> Once I ask the question, I'm going to give everyone about 30 seconds to come up with the answer and send it along.
[22:00:36] <randell> If the "better" answer comes after the "other answer" it still wins.
[22:00:40] <randell> Clear?
[22:00:46] <eTronik> yep
[22:00:47] <Luc> yes
[22:01:14] <randell> Tonight's trivia question category is...
[22:01:21] <randell> REXX!
[22:01:32] <Swanee> hmmm... wish I could play...
[22:01:37] <mandie> hehe
[22:01:40] <eTronik> lol
[22:01:47] <randell> But you don't have to know REXX to be able to get the right answer!
[22:02:00] <Luc> cool
[22:02:29] <randell> So everyone should give it a try... but comtemplate your answer first!
[22:02:34] <eTronik> shoot
[22:02:35] <randell> Ready?
[22:02:57] <randell> The next line is the question (finally)?
[22:03:22] <randell> *** What version of OS/2 was the first to include REXX? ***
[22:03:32] <rollin> I know :)
[22:03:33] <Luc> 1.0?
[22:03:34] <Bob> 2.0
[22:03:38] <eTronik> 1.3
[22:03:48] <mandie> rolline: who'd of thought :)
[22:03:51] <randell> 10 more seconds...
[22:03:52] <Swanee> I have my guess but can't...
[22:04:14] <eTronik> 2.1
[22:04:14] <randell> Swanee, why not?
[22:04:27] <rollin> eTronik which is it?
[22:04:30] <mandie> BOD can't win :(
[22:04:33] <randell> eTronik, are you changing your guess?
[22:04:36] <Swanee> BOD...
[22:04:40] <eTronik> 1.3 :-) sticking with this
[22:04:48] <randell> Ok -- done!
[22:04:57] <Luc> what was it????
[22:04:59] <mandie> do we have a winner?
[22:05:04] <madodel> 1.3 ee
[22:05:11] <randell> The best answer was 1.2 Extended Edition.
[22:05:22] <madodel> hey I had the ee
[22:05:26] <randell> The second best answer was 1.3.
[22:05:39] <mandie> we have a winner!!!!!! :)
[22:05:40] <eTronik> I didn't see any 1.2 ee
[22:05:48] <Swanee> madodel: I had the 1.2 transposed to 2.1E
[22:05:58] <randell> (It was included in *all* versions of 1.3, not just EE.)
[22:05:59] <mandie> swanee: riiiiiiiight
[22:06:11] <randell> So eTronik gets it!
[22:06:13] <madodel> Oh yeah, and your the REXX expert
[22:06:17] <mandie> eTronik: congrats!!! :)
[22:06:20] <Swanee> hehe
[22:06:20] <Luc> eTronik: congrats!
[22:06:25] <eTronik> oh sh*t I can't believe this!!
[22:06:35] <eTronik> thanks a million !!
[22:06:36] <Swanee> Congrats eTronik!
[22:06:38] <eTronik> :-)
[22:06:42] <mandie> eTronik: can we plan on a review of DBE for our January newsletter?
[22:06:47] <Luc> eTronik: of course it's not true :-)
[22:06:52] <mandie> luc: hehe
[22:07:03] <madodel> eTronik: now you can see what it does for yourself
[22:07:07] <rollin> eTronic, just drop me a note to rollin@sundialsystems.com with your name address, phone and we'll get it off to you.
[22:07:10] <eTronik> mandie: january ?? welll I'll do my best !
[22:07:28] <eTronik> rollin: ok !
[22:07:47] <eTronik> rollin: my e-mail is smahomad@mail.telepac.pt
[22:07:49] <Luc> trixer: jeez, just missed the quiz
[22:07:53] <mandie> eTronik: February if need be....we want you to give it a full workout so that you can fairly evaluate it :)
[22:08:15] <randell> mandie, thanks for having us once again and we'll look forward to a Relish chat in February!
[22:08:20] <eTronik> mandie: good excuse to finally learn some Rexx heh ??
[22:08:34] <eTronik> already have an application planned for it !!
[22:08:42] <trixer> evening everyone
[22:08:43] <trixer> :>
[22:08:43] <mandie> randell: great...Feb 1 :)
[22:08:57] <eTronik> good thing I'm a database guy heh ?
[22:08:58] <mandie> thanks to Rollin and Randell for another fine speakup :)
[22:09:44] <randell> Thanks everyone and good night!
[22:09:57] <rollin> Good night. See you in Feb (or sooner!)
[22:10:41] <madodel> And remember January 30th at 1PM EST (tentative) is a special Speakup on REXX
[22:10:54] <eTronik> I just can't miss that one also !!
[22:11:11] <mandie> btw...got confirmation from
[22:11:25] <mandie> oops...from Tim Sipples for a speakup Jan 18 on networking :)
[22:11:44] <madodel> December 14, 1998 - General Meeting with a topic of the Aurora (OS/2 WarpServer for e-Business) beta test. Mike Persell will be available to answer questions.
[22:12:15] <madodel> trixer: a special speakup with a very special guest
[22:16:45] <mandie> who will be at the REXX speakup
[22:19:22] <trixer> Mike Cowlishaw
[22:19:38] <trixer> big guest
[22:25:29] <mandie> for the log Shafik Mahomad was the winner of DBE tonight :)