General VOICE Meeting (Topic: InJoy) From 12/22/98

<Abraxas> I'd like to first welcome everyone to the VOICE channel on IRC
<Abraxas> Normally, we'd have a Treasury Report and a reading of the minutes from the last meeting, but techcnical problems (those pesky computers) will spare you all from that, tonite
<Abraxas> Suffice it to say that VOICE has some very nice projects in the works, and some very interesting guest speakers lined up in the coming months
<Abraxas> And, speaking of Guest Speakers, Tonight we are happy to have Bjarne Jensen, the author of Injoy (and related products) as our guest
<Bjarne> Thank you :)
<Abraxas> Bjarne we welcome you to VOICE, and the floor is yours
<Bjarne> Thanks again..
<Bjarne> I have no opening speech, but I assume the questions will take us around most of the current and future projects.
<Projects> judy!
<Judy> Projects :)
<Abraxas> Anyone have any questions for Bjarne, now's the time :-)
<Projects> is there a pm version of InJoy?
<Bjarne> Projects: Not yet, but..
<Projects> but.. ?
<Bjarne> Projects: my current project is to externalize all InJoy's features.
<Bjarne> Projects: via an API.
<Bjarne> Projects: It's a commercial project for a major OS/2 corporate, but....
<Swanee> Bjarne: Rexx callable?
<Projects> there's that 'but' word again...
<Bjarne> Projects: I know it will cast off an InJoy dialer in the nearest future.
<Projects> Bjarne: hope so :)
<Bjarne> Swanee: As it is designed, it will be a .DLL
<Mr-Data> Bjarne: will there ever be the capability of doing protocols other than IP through Injoy?
<Bjarne> Swanee: and as you know.. Most things can call a DLL.
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: To get that capability we have to totally redesign the lower layers of InJoy.
<Mr-Data> I take it that's a no.. :)
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: It's not a NO ... But :)
<Mr-Data> LOL
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: it's something that can be done, but it's not one of our main priorities.
<Mr-Data> Bjarne: ok.. thanks
<DaBull> re
<Swanee> Hi DaBull
<BuTbKA> Bjarne: what are the main priorities then?
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: good question!
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: let me list some of them..
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: The InJoy Dialer is an ever-expanding tool, and I wish to keep it that way.
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: That means..
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: that it will receive tons of new features in the near future...
<BuTbKA> like what?
<Bjarne> A graphical user interface for the Firewall part.
<Bjarne> A graphical user interface for the standard dialing part.
<Bjarne> Identd support (for the masquerading/NAT)
<Bjarne> An API
<Bjarne> And of course..
<Bjarne> A lot of smaller changes are planned..
<Bjarne> Also protocol extentions and even better fine-tuning cababilities
<Bjarne> Then there is..
<Bjarne> The InJoy Firewall (for cable modems)
<Bjarne> That's a new product.
* madodel has registered the InJoy Firewall
<Bjarne> That is currently released as a NAT Gateway for home LAN's..
<BuTbKA> Bjarne cool, can you tell a little more about it?
<Bjarne> sure...
<madodel> using it right now as a matter of fact.
<Bjarne> The InJoy Gateway a tool that provides Network Address Translation ..
<BuTbKA> madodel: your side estimation? ;)
<Bjarne> For a home LAN.. Allowing several home computers to access the Internet through a cable hookup..
<Bjarne> It's a low level solution..
<Bjarne> Being distributed with its own NDIS device driver ...
<Bjarne> The low level approach should make this the fastest way for a home lan to access the Internet..
<madodel> BuTbKA: not much to tell. Most work involved was un configuring all the stuff I had to do for IGate proxy. FxNAT justs starts and the clients have access to the net as if they are directly connected.
<Bjarne> The InJoy Gateway supports plugins...
<madodel> Bjarne: the NDIS driver just intercepts packets to the cable NIC correct?
<Bjarne> madodel: That's correct.
<Bjarne> and in the near future the InJoy Gateway will be expanded with a GUI..
<Projects> :)
<Bjarne> And of course Firewall and Filtering capability.
<Bjarne> It's the idea that the InJoy Gateway and the InJoy Dialer will share the same GUI.
<madodel> BuTbKA: the install script is very simple to use. It lists all the NIC's in the computer and you choose the one connected to the cable modem. Then it replaces the driver with it's own.
<Bjarne> The GUI is 100% Java btw..
<Bjarne> More details about this product available at
<madodel> Bjarne: Any plans to port InJoy to windoze?
<madodel> Since the GUI is java
<Bjarne> madodel: The idea with Java is definitely ....
<Bjarne> madodel: to keep the road ahead open...
<Bjarne> madodel: But it would be wrong to say that we are working on an InJoy Dialer for Windoze!
<madodel> NT's dialer sucks. There is plenty of opportunity there for a full featured replacement.
<Bjarne> madodel: I couldn't agree more..
<Bjarne> madodel: But I have some interesting business with InJoy on OS/2 and it's my hope that I'll find a customer that is willing to ease the way to Windoze..
<BuTbKA> Bjarne: I think if GUI will be 100% java it can be started from any java enabled platform, so I would be able to configure firewall from any computer in net, right?
<madodel> Of course just about everything about NT sucks, so maybe the NT users couldn't care less.
<Projects> heh
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: It's really 100% Java and you can start it on any platform...
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: You can even configure the Firewall from a web-browser..
<BuTbKA> Bjarne: seems quite good for me
<StrayLite> Making ppp easier under Linux is a definite plus... just look at all the Linux ppp help osts on usenet.
<Bjarne> StrayLite: That's another opportunity..
<Bjarne> StrayLite: My job is to see where the most interesting business-opportunity is..
<StrayLite> Linux is fertile territory, IMHO.
<Bjarne> StrayLite: I don't think Windows users have a long history of paying for "shareware" ..
<madodel> Bjarne: have you looked into Linux at this point?
<Bjarne> I'm definitely not outruling Linux ...
<Bjarne> The latest developments in the Linux "history" has been very interesting..
<Bjarne> If the big companies will really start to back Linux the way they have indicated..
<StrayLite> If one word stands out about OS/2 users in my mind as far as software/shareware goes it's product "loyalty".
<Bjarne> then it could be a business-area even more interesting than Windows..
<Bjarne> StrayLite: And product loyalty is a very important issue for a small ISV...
<StrayLite> I'd definitely pay for an InjoyX .
<Bjarne> StrayLite: Don't count on Open Source though :)
<StrayLite> hehehe
<StrayLite> Wouldn't expect it.
<Mr-Data> Bjarne: sorry to change the subject, but... :) I have talked to a number of people about InJoy and have heard that there are some problems with the way you do the masquerading and licensing... ie, even if you have only one computer, the masquerading could stop at some point, is this true, and if so, will it be fixed in v2.0?
<Swanee> I would think that Linux would be a tough sell considering the free nature of the Linux system, software and userbase. Business use is probably the saving grace.
<StrayLite> I was amazed at how much work I had to do to get a dialup connection working when I tried Linux for a few months.
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Regarding the masqeurading and licensing..
<StrayLite> I remember wishing for Injoy!
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Masquerading (on any platform) is built around a table of internal IP addresses..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: That table is filled automatically with inside IP-addresses as packets go out through InJoy..
<Sector> StrayLite: What work, just takes a few options and your all set.
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: If packets from the inside has a source IP address that is not really what the user expects..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: then it falls back on the product..
<StrayLite> I had all sorts of problems, Sector... never was able to hook up to my ISP's X2 line under Linux for some reason.
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: And I can see why...
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: With the next version..
<os2r> evening all
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: It will be possible to define a mask of inside computers..
<Judy> os2r: hi :)
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: It's not full filtering, but it should be enough to fix the problem that annoys some people..
<Mr-Data> Bjarne: but why would a single system, with a fixed IP, cause a NAT table to fill up?? (I've actually seen this at someone else's computer and it's the reason I'm not using InJoy yet...)
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: There are several reasons..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Whenver you dial the Internet..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: You probably get a new IP address..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: And even though, when you disconnect, the IP stack should have forgot about this address..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Then there might be tcp/ip applications that still desperately tries to kill a tcp connection on the old PPP connection..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: So InJoy now has to keep track of 2 IP addresses..
<Mr-Data> Bjarne: but, wouldn't the address of the system on the LAN already be in the table, wouldn't it still be allowed through?
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: The IP addresses build up and the IP stack won't forget about the old addresses..
<Mr-Data> I agree that that's a possibility on the system which is dialing, but the address never changes on the LAN system...
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Right.. The address never changes on the inside lan systems..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: so that is seldomly the problem..
<Mr-Data> so they should still be in this "NAT table" and therefore should still get through, right?
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Yes, if they got there first..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Which they almost always will..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: But as said, there can be several reasons..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: I sometimes fire up a dialer at a LAN client..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: and that produces one extra IP address for the LAN with each call..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: Anyway.. filtering allows the user to fix this completely..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: But filtering is a little expensive if this is the only problem..
<_Mr-Data> sorry, I missed part of your answer, I've had problems with my ISP hanging up on me :(
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: and therefore I'll implement the interface mask.. A simpler solution..
<Bjarne> Mr-Data: check it in the log tomorrow :)
<_Mr-Data> :)
<Bjarne> MADserver: IP and Port redirection..
<Bjarne> MADserver: Rule based access control, Logging, etc etc..
<MADserver> what is IP redirection?
<MADserver> That like a proxy server?
<Bjarne> MADserver: With IP redirection you allow an Internal PC to act as server..
<Bjarne> MADserver: Even though the internal PC doesn't have a real IP address..
<Bjarne> MADserver: Some call it port mapping..
<Bjarne> MADserver: You map one TCP Service to another.
<MADserver> Hmmm, so I could run a server on one of the pc's that isn't connecetd directly to the CM?
<Bjarne> MADserver: E.g., incoming connections on port 80 are mapped to the internal PC on port 8080
<Bjarne> MADserver: Exactly!!
<MADserver> I can see a use for that. Right now all my servers are running on the one box with the one ip address.
<Bjarne> MADserver: Yes, that's quite typical...
<es> MADserver: you can split load. this is good solution.
<Bjarne> MADserver: And you can split OS's.. E.g. I must run an NT server..
<es> Bjarne: such feature is planned for InJoy Firewall?
<MADserver> Bjarne: sorry to hear that. The NT that is. ;-)
<Bjarne> es: Yep, it's in the firewall plugin and both the InJoy Client and the InJoy Firewall (for cable modems) gets this..
<Bjarne> MADserver: Yep, I don't enjoy it :)
<BuTbKA> Bjarne: just don't Injoy it ;)
<BuTbKA> Bjarne: I'm about NT
<Bjarne> MADserver: But I had some people that needed me to serve some special HTML on an NT server and that was quite easy to setup internally..
<es> Bjarne: Hmm. Seems I'm not quite understand. You plan to release something like a bundle of plugins or what?
<Bjarne> MADserver: Without fully exposing the NT box to Internet traffic (we all know what means:)
<Acknakmay> CLOSE
<madodel> Bjarne: how will the registration for the components work. Right now I have registered the NAT. Will we be bale to pick and choose?
<madodel> be able to pick and choose that is.
<Bjarne> madodel: It's a very good question..
<Bjarne> madodel: And I haven't totally made up my mind yet..
<Bjarne> madodel: Sure, every component represents an individual efforts (and investment)..
<Bjarne> madodel: And I'd like the registration scheme to somehow reflect that..
<Bjarne> madodel: Of course, still with focus on useability :)
<Projects> Hello Coana... welcome
<Bjarne> madodel: For a small 5-10 user setup, the aim is to keep this as cheap as possible..
<StrayLite> I have simple needs (single computer w/56K dialup) so I don't have much to speak up about.
<StrayLite> But, I would like to commend Bjarne for the high quality of InJoy. When my needs grow, I'll be looking to InJoy to fulfill them.
<Bjarne> StrayLite: I'm glad to hear that..
<Bjarne> StrayLite: Let me take this opportunity to assure you, that F/X will still have a solution for OS/2, when you have the need.
<Bjarne> StrayLite: What the OS/2 customers have invested in our OS/2 products gets invested back into OS/2 solutions..
<StrayLite> That's assuring. I must run. Best wishes to all for the holidays.
<Bjarne> StrayLite: Even compared to Linux and any other OS, I still prefer OS/2 and with from my seat, I can see that it's far from dead..
<Bjarne> StrayLite: Even compared to Linux and any other OS, I still prefer OS/2 and from my seat, I can see that it's far from dead..
<StrayLite> Yes... I was just saying on the undernet #os2... if Linux only had the WPS
<madodel> Bjarne: Since I have the cable modem I haven't had need to try InJoy Dialer 2.0. What are the new features in that version?
<BuTbKA> Bjarne: I think with PPP-server and firewall from F/X we will get complete solution for IP need. at least I want to count on it.
* madodel always used InJoy when he used a dialup
<es> Bjarne: BTW, about user licenses.. Did you plan something like NetWare-like style of licenses?
<Bjarne> madodel: InJoy 2.0b which is the most recent version of InJoy, you find full firewall capability, filtering and lots of smaller new features..
<Bjarne> madodel: all are viewable online on the homepage ..
<Bjarne> es: Yes, probably..
<Bjarne> es: You register what you need..
<StrayLite> madodel: The autodial in 2.0 is nice for my preferred dialup useage. Just fire up InJoy with a set timeout disconnect and any time I use something Injoy dials out for me.
<Bjarne> es: and the plan is to keep it "cheap" for the small customer...
<es> BuTbKA: I mean cumulative license.
<es> BuTbKA: sorry.
<es> Bjarne: I mean cumulative license.
<Projects> Bjarne: will Injoy keep a connection for a specified amount of time, then disconnect?
<Bjarne> es: Oh yeah.. That too..
<StrayLite> Projects: Yes, that's the way I am set up.
<Bjarne> es: If you register the InJoy Gateway now, then you have cumulative licenses til version 1.9
<BuTbKA> I have to go ;( Bjarne: thank you for your answers and of course your work. Keep injoying! ;)
<StrayLite> Projects: Provided there is no traffic, I have InJoy set to disconnect after 3 minutes.
<Projects> StrayLite: that's why I asked... wasn't too sure about your wording :)
<Bjarne> BuTbKA: Thanks a lot!
<Projects> StrayLite: great... that does the trick for me :)
<Swanee> Or, per Projects question, Can we write a cmd file that will have InJoy disconnect at a specified time. (when the api's are done?)
<StrayLite> 'night all...
<Bjarne> Swanee: You can do that not, I think..
<Bjarne> Swanee: With the use of setjoy.exe
<Bjarne> Swanee: SetJoy /D to disconnect InJoy .. You know how to do the rest, I guess..
<Swanee> I guess i am wondering about the api set. Will a guy be able to write a front end that would control InJoy almost completely?
<Bjarne> Swanee: Yes, the API offers this.. BUT...
<Bjarne> Swanee: I think, the API will mainly be marketed towards the companies..
<Projects> there's that word again...
<Bjarne> Swanee: that do embedded systems, etc..
<Swanee> Bjarne: Oh, it won't be part of the distribution? It will be an add-on?
<Swanee> add-on dll?
<es> Bjarne: why not make API available to everyone? Better through REXX, I think.
<Bjarne> Swanee: It's not in my interest to have hundreds of small InJoy's out there, taking the foundation out of my business and possibly the stability out of InJoy..:)
<Bjarne> Swanee: No, at least not for a start..
<Bjarne> Swanee: This will start like a high-end feature..
<Swanee> OK, just wondering. :)
<Bjarne> Swanee: But the distribution is not 100% firmed out yet.. I might change these things over night..
<Bjarne> Swanee: Keeping the business rolling is of course the #1 priority :)
<Swanee> Bjarne: :)
<Swanee> Bjarne: How much of your business is business based as opposed to the end/home user?
<Bjarne> Swanee: 50/50
<Bjarne> Swanee: It is slowly changing ... The first year it was probably around 90/10
<Bjarne> Swanee: then 70/30 (70 for home business)
<Bjarne> Swanee: and now 50/50
<Bjarne> Swanee: I'd hate to see this change..
<Bjarne> Swanee: I enjoy selling to the home user..
<Bjarne> Swanee: cause it lets me design the features..:)
<Projects> Hi, Pockets :)
<HiPockets> Hello
<Swanee> Sorry, phone call...
<Judy> Well, it's getting late for Bjarne.,..
<Judy> So we'd like to thank him for being our guest tonight :)
<Bjarne> Thank YOU!
<Bjarne> People: Don't give up on OS/2 ... :)
<Judy> We'd also like to thank everyone for joining us and sitting back and Injoying this session :)
<KoolAde0> Thank You I have always used injoy everysense I quite IBM net :)
<es> Bjarne: thank you
<Judy> <===never give up on OS/2
* Projects either!
<Bjarne> :)
<AckNakMay> Bjarne If I may, how is the PPP server coming along?
<Bjarne> AckNakMay: Very well.. Will be released pretty soon..
<Bjarne> AckNakMay: Technical Writers wanted :)
<Bjarne> AckNakMay: E-mail me for more..
<AckNakMay> :)
<Bjarne> Bye bye everybody !!!
<AckNakMay> Bjarne: Thanks and goodnight
<madodel> Thank you all for coming
<madodel> January 4, 1999, 8PM EST - SpeakUp with Ulli Ramps (ROM Logicware). Focus on Papyrus (and he'll have a copy of it for a Trivia Prize).