SpeakUp with BitWiseWorks, Session 1, 3 March, 2018

  10:30:49 *** Log Activated #os2voice (D:\GTIRC\Logs\#os2voic.log)
  10:41:43 *** #os2voice Mode change: +o martini by ChanServ
  10:50:58 <roderick> hello
  10:52:09 <MrFawlty> Hi Roderick
  10:52:49 > Hi
  10:55:23 <mseidel> Hi!
  10:57:42 <roderick> Aaah the master of disaster just entered the room :-)
  10:57:46 <roderick> MrFawlty...
  10:57:48 <roderick> ....
  10:58:16 * MrFawlty sees Roderick indeed
  10:58:34 <roderick> Making a joke with this guy is not always a smart move.
  10:58:37 <roderick> Come well prepared...
  10:59:13 <Thomas__> Good evening
  10:59:16 <roderick> Hello
  10:59:33 *** #os2voice Mode change: +o roderick by martini
  10:59:37 <OS4user> hi ppl
  11:00:18 * MrFawlty wonders if IRC works below snow
  11:04:52 <_diver> Sorry I was in the wrong channel
  11:04:57 <_diver> Hi all
  11:05:03 <MrFawlty> typical for a diver ;-)
  11:05:08 <HerwigB> Hi all
  11:06:07 <_diver> I'm pretty sure roderick wants to start
  11:06:21 <MrFawlty> when he is back from fetching tea
  11:07:02 <StevenL> Or riding his unicycle.
  11:07:25 <MrFawlty> hehe, a unicorn on a unicycle, towards the universe
  11:07:29 <HerwigB> Let him finish his Coffee
  11:07:46 <MrFawlty> you really want him awake? ;-)
  11:07:54 * MrFawlty goes in silent mode
  11:08:26 <roderick> Anyay welcome everybody...
  11:08:28 <Thomas__> \_/o \_/o \_/o \_/o <- If anybody likes coffee
  11:08:55 <roderick> I thought it would be nice for people to have a time to talk to our development friends at BWW.
  11:09:15 <roderick> While we have people like Paul Smedley who do a lot of work on the GCC /LIBC framework.
  11:09:28 <roderick> The work the guys at BWW do is needed very hard.
  11:09:51 <roderick> They work on the web browser Firefox, Open Office. Pretty crucial parts to make OS/2 useable I would say.
  11:10:09 <roderick> Silvan the floor is yours. Its your company not min...
  11:10:18 <roderick> mine...
  11:10:30 <roderick> So maybe you can give a brief introduction.
  11:11:00 <_diver> I hope all know what we do
  11:11:04 <roderick> And tell us what you are currently working on and if people have questions please let us know. But please one question at the time.
  11:12:21 <_diver> We work on a lot stuff in parallel atm. Like Firefox, AOO, injoy and a lot updates of ports
  11:12:39 <MrFawlty> bww is working on various essential projects indeed, what is the limiting factor with these?
  11:12:52 <_diver> In the near future we start finally with Qt5
  11:13:39 <_diver> The limiting factor is mostly the lack of funding
  11:14:22 <roderick> As I always say, free software does not grow on trees.
  11:14:27 *** ppVicente is now known as JoseVicenteRuiz
  11:14:34 <MrFawlty> ok, sponsor units
  11:14:36 <roderick> Well the source code is there but porting to OS/2 does simply take financial resources.
  11:15:03 <Sigurd4Warp> What is the status of the "Beyond Firefox" time, are there some plans?
  11:15:35 <_diver> We are still confident a Qt browser will be it
  11:16:22 <HerwigB> Basically QT5 is going to be the basis for a New Browser
  11:16:33 <MrFawlty> cool
  11:17:21 <Sigurd4Warp> Are there plans regarding JAVA
  11:17:23 <Sigurd4Warp> ?
  11:17:39 <_diver> We could work further on Firefox as well. But we really doubt the company would sponsor enough
  11:18:16 <HerwigB> We want to update Java, too.
  11:18:18 <MrFawlty> and Firefox goes into an area which is not possible on OS/2-like OS-es isn't it?
  11:18:28 <_diver> Java is another port we need. But again. First we need funding.
  11:18:32 <MrFawlty> area=direction
  11:18:53 <HerwigB> Problem is Rust
  11:19:13 <MrFawlty> what is Rust?
  11:19:19 <_diver> Almost everything is portable. But it needs a lot time. Which means a lot money
  11:19:32 <Sigurd4Warp> Regarding Funding, what happened to the 10.000 Dollar funding? And - more important - thank you very much for your work and your answers here! :-)
  11:19:42 <_diver> Rust is some kind of compiler
  11:19:48 <MrFawlty> ah, thx
  11:19:52 <roderick> It not just that but I get the impression Dmitry is getting nuts of the other massive changes being by the Mozilla foundation. That is part II
  11:19:54 <HerwigB> A New language requirwd to Build Firefox
  11:20:12 <MrFawlty> ok, clear
  11:20:27 <HerwigB> We Lack the Compiler
  11:20:52 <Paperino> hi all
  11:21:04 <_diver> The 10k funding is a voice thinggy. So we have no idea how far it is
  11:21:21 <roderick> We are currently at about 6900 Dollars (I would need to check again). And a further 1100 Dollars in VOICE sponsorship the board could appoint to QT funding...
  11:21:36 <roderick> I have been rather busy moving to a new house, new job etc.
  11:21:47 <Sigurd4Warp> So, the plan is: first QT5, than the Browser.
  11:21:55 <mseidel> Hi Yuri!
  11:22:23 <Paperino> hi Mattial
  11:22:25 <Paperino> hi Mattias
  11:22:32 <_diver> Yes as Qt5 has webkit. And when this works a browser is a easy port
  11:23:17 <Sigurd4Warp> What amount is needed to get QT5 ready, are the 8.000 Dollars enough or how much is missing?
  11:23:39 <_diver> We expect a 12 month work
  11:24:22 <_diver> And for Qt 8k is far not enough.
  11:24:30 <MrFawlty> yeah, with Qt5 a slew of ready programs will get available
  11:24:47 <roderick> Note that the 10000 Dollars I set was a first target to get started...
  11:24:54 <pacoos2[m]> hi
  11:25:09 <roderick> BWW did that in the past as well to collect funding for a project in different stages...
  11:25:10 <Sigurd4Warp> I really appreciate this, but where should the rest come from?
  11:25:10 <_diver> @Roderick we know that
  11:25:21 <MrFawlty> but that was for the browser, or is that indirectly now also available for Qt5?
  11:25:24 <roderick> I was expecting Sigurd his question.
  11:25:39 <roderick> Where would the rest come from. A next round of funding would come.
  11:26:05 <roderick> Should I have set the target to 25.000 Dollars ? I wonder if people would have even started to donate in the first place.
  11:26:20 <_diver> We have a couple of ideas. Community funding is one.
  11:26:36 <Sigurd4Warp> I do not want to be negativ, it is just to have an idea what is needed in the end.
  11:26:57 <MrFawlty> yeah, good feedback about progress surely will help as well
  11:26:59 <_diver> Some kind of subscription is another idea.
  11:27:11 <Sigurd4Warp> 12 Months of work, what is the usual needed for one month?
  11:27:17 <MrFawlty> I am trying to do that via the netlabs newsletter and I can follow some bww projects for that
  11:28:13 <MrFawlty> btw, bww communicates via tweets as well! Which is good to follow!
  11:28:24 <Sigurd4Warp> Roderick, I think it would be better to tell sponsors very early what is needed at all, even if it is a high amount
  11:28:43 <Sigurd4Warp> it just sounds better than "10.000 is only the start"
  11:29:12 <MrFawlty> yeah, would be surprising to picture this for getting a house ;-)
  11:29:20 <_diver> That's true and false 😂
  11:29:24 <Sigurd4Warp> As a Sponsor I would think - why should I sponsor if I do not know if it will make a difference in the end
  11:29:55 <MrFawlty> driver: can you explain what you mean by that?
  11:30:01 <_diver> Every USD counts. And a start is a start.
  11:31:00 <_diver> Sometimes ppl need to be cheated. Means give them a smaller number and when they see progress they believe it's going to work
  11:31:22 <MrFawlty> is there a plan with milestones?
  11:31:33 <Sigurd4Warp> In this case I think it is different. At least from what I have heard from others.
  11:31:34 <_diver> If you set it to 30k at first all might think this will never happen
  11:32:07 <roderick> I think its save to say up some level what BWW is doing is on a best effort bases. What I mean by this is that lets say they say it take 12 monts it might take more it might take less.
  11:32:13 <_diver> Milestones come soon. We are still to much bound to Firefox
  11:32:15 <Sigurd4Warp> But on the other hand - why should I sponsor if i can not be sure it will ever happen?
  11:32:17 <roderick> One thing we do know they have always had shortage of funding.
  11:32:33 <MrFawlty> diver: ok, understand that
  11:32:41 <roderick> Because its our only way forward I am very much afraid.
  11:33:09 <roderick> The BWW guys have always asked for more funding over the years. They are underfunded basically.
  11:33:12 <_diver> If it doesn't happen the os is dead
  11:33:26 * MrFawlty knows funding BWW is one of the best investments for sure
  11:33:38 <Sigurd4Warp> But that is not enough, sorry. I know, BWW does a gread job, they are underfunded.
  11:33:56 <_diver> Until now we think we delivered what we promised
  11:34:01 <roderick> What is different between now and when BWW started.
  11:34:03 <MrFawlty> and BWW showed a good pipeline of work at WSE as well
  11:34:07 <roderick> The blunt answer is nothing Sigurd
  11:34:08 <Sigurd4Warp> But there are to many "If" in this case
  11:34:20 <roderick> That has always been the case
  11:34:23 <HerwigB> Rehi!
  11:34:29 <Sigurd4Warp> The Difference it the amount of possible sponsors and the amount of work and money therfore neede
  11:34:41 <pacoos2[m]> i begin to pray :-) god helps os/2-ecomstation-ArcaOS people again, like it did when it come ArcaOS 5.0 alive :-)
  11:35:13 <HerwigB> Well, every single support units counts.
  11:35:27 <_diver> We have only this chance. No Qt5 or better no browser, then the os is useless
  11:35:28 <MrFawlty> well, let's see which products we are now being able to use, due to long standing BBW work ;-)
  11:35:41 <Sigurd4Warp> Without a more detailed plan and more estimated full costs I will not be able to pursuade anyone to sponsor
  11:36:06 <Sigurd4Warp> I know that this is the only chance, that is right. Therefore I try to explain my point of view
  11:36:08 <_diver> As said the Qt5 plan is in the works
  11:36:09 <roderick> What more detail would like ?
  11:36:21 <roderick> SOmebody needs to sit down and start working on this. That is all.
  11:36:32 <Sigurd4Warp> How much will it cost, roderick
  11:36:36 <Sigurd4Warp> Estimated
  11:36:49 <roderick> Silvan said 12 months.
  11:36:51 <roderick> Dmitry told me 9.
  11:37:00 <Sigurd4Warp> And a month costs?
  11:37:03 <MrFawlty> can we park this subject and give BWW some time to work on a plan?
  11:37:04 <roderick> The whole thing they can not look into a cystal ball
  11:37:08 <MrFawlty> and focus on other items?
  11:37:15 <HerwigB> The difference is testing and things like that.
  11:37:27 <_diver> We did that. And it's 12. As 9 os the core and 3 for the webkit
  11:37:39 <Sigurd4Warp> Well, it is cotraproducktive, Roderick, when one aks for facts to answer with a crystal ball.
  11:38:08 <_diver> Anyway a more detailed road map is coming soon
  11:38:25 <MrFawlty> great
  11:38:46 <mseidel> Will bww be at Warpstock Europe 2018 in Berlin?
  11:39:11 <_diver> Almost 100% I will be there
  11:39:43 <Sigurd4Warp> Someone told me the Difference between chinese and german engineering - while the Germans allways want to solve all possible problems before they start, the Chinese just satrt and solv the problems when those occur
  11:40:07 <_diver> We do that don't worry
  11:40:22 <mseidel> @_diver: Great! Looking forward to meeting you
  11:40:40 <MrFawlty> Sigurd4Warp: I have seen the results from that in real life. You don't want Chinese ;-)
  11:40:42 <_diver> But w/o partial funding we can't start at all.
  11:40:51 <Sigurd4Warp> And that is here the case: without an estimated cost plan it will be very hard to find someone here around to sponsor
  11:40:51 <HerwigB> Well, in order to provide some figures:
  11:41:12 * MrFawlty will sponsor for sure, real soon
  11:42:10 <HerwigB> we need approximately 3500 € to cover all costs for one month.
  11:42:30 <Sigurd4Warp> Thanks, Herwig.
  11:42:43 <HerwigB> So, if Qt5 requires 1 Year of tijme, that makes
  11:42:50 <MrFawlty> 42K
  11:42:55 <Szarik> Sorry, can somebody point me to the current state of WebKit for OS2. Some of our Objective C programmers doing fancy things with it, but I can not see a Objective C compiler and framework for OS2 available.
  11:43:49 <_diver> We speak about webkit as in Qt
  11:44:20 <_diver> There is no objective C as I know of
  11:44:22 <Szarik> So it's not relates to apple webkit?
  11:45:03 <_diver> They use the same root. But it's adapted to Qt
  11:45:21 <MrFawlty> so the provided interface to developers should be the same
  11:46:34 <Szarik> I don't know. Is JavaScriptCore not included in Qt-webkit?
  11:46:50 <_diver> Sure it is
  11:49:02 <MrFawlty> is RPM and YUM also BWW?
  11:49:21 <_diver> Mostly yes. As we update and fix it
  11:49:44 <_diver> Rpm yum python perl
  11:49:58 <MrFawlty> are people working, not necessary BWW, to add old software and WPI towards RPM library?
  11:50:28 <HerwigB> Well, at least BWW does that.
  11:50:52 <_diver> I know some try. But just packing is sometimes wrong. As old software uses non standard locations
  11:51:00 <HerwigB> several of the older REXX libraries are packaged as rpm meanwhile
  11:51:08 <HerwigB> more to come.
  11:51:08 <MrFawlty> hmm, ok
  11:51:11 <martini> Hi
  11:51:11 <MrFawlty> cool
  11:51:22 <_diver> Wrong location in rpm terms
  11:51:27 <MrFawlty> yup
  11:51:35 <martini> Q: About SWT. I'm a fan of eclipse and some other SWT, but I'm not sure of the relevance of having a SWT/Eclipse port for the OS/2 platform today. Counting that there is a priority of having a modern browser (and Qt5), will it make sense after those projects to port SWT to OS/2? What do you think it will be potential of SWT on OS/2 ?
  11:52:08 <_diver> Swt goes along with java
  11:52:59 <_diver> No new java no swt. But as said earlier we know of that lack. And I also want to solve that
  11:55:19 <_diver> Btw if anyone has questions for us. Please don't post in forums.
  11:55:39 <roderick> And if you have an issue with software you develop.
  11:55:48 <roderick> No ticket=no bug
  11:55:49 <roderick> :-)
  11:55:52 <Szarik> What happened to the attempt of VirtualBox host support for OS2?
  11:55:53 <_diver> The reason is we read them not regularly. So better add tickets or write a mail
  11:56:24 <_diver> This project is still open.
  11:56:26 <MrFawlty> https://www.bitwiseworks.com/shop/index.php?controller=contact
  11:56:36 <_diver> We hope to resume soon as well
  11:57:18 <roderick> But you guys need a more constant stream of money to make that happen...
  11:57:49 <roderick> Everytime somebody downloads a product of BWW they should consider there donations are badly needed. You get it for free from the internet...
  11:58:33 <HerwigB> Yes, we have to pay bills constantly, too.
  11:59:15 <MrFawlty> understandable
  11:59:39 <MrFawlty> maybe we should get reminders in a popup when using current products that it was brought by ;-)
  11:59:44 <HerwigB> The lack of more or less constant funding might bring down a project very fast, while resuming it costs additional time and money.
  12:00:00 <MrFawlty> sure
  12:00:25 <HerwigB> Yeah. We might add tons of nag screens to our software.
  12:00:34 <MrFawlty> rofl
  12:00:35 <HerwigB> THAT WAS A JOKE.
  12:00:51 <MrFawlty> Press Yes to continue, with a moving button...
  12:01:22 <Szarik> Can you give a picture what was done last month and how it relates to operational costs?
  12:02:40 <_diver> You mean like developer costs, infrastructure cost and such
  12:02:40 <HerwigB> During the last month, work on Firefox was done.
  12:03:46 <MrFawlty> BWW progress is mentioned on a high level at http://blog.netlabs.org as well, on a weekly basis
  12:03:58 <_diver> And a lot new perl rpm to update nasm. As nasm now needs perl font stuff to create documentation.
  12:04:05 <martini> It can be interesting if bww can set up a Patreon page to try to get more constant stream of money if the community wants to help. But it is important to have some "fund goals" for the community to have more information.
  12:04:53 <_diver> @Martini is this similar to kickstarter
  12:04:56 <HerwigB> https://github.com/bitwiseworks
  12:05:55 <HerwigB> and http://trac.netlabs.org/rpm/timeline are the places to see us working.
  12:07:04 <roderick> Its something you see frequently on youtube channels of people who makes video's.
  12:07:12 <Szarik> Thanks for pointers
  12:07:13 <roderick> You can make monthly donations to them.
  12:08:01 <MrFawlty> I came across this article: http://trac.netlabs.org/rpm/wiki/RpmHowToPackagers
  12:08:15 <MrFawlty> but I understand it is not complete and might need some work
  12:08:25 <martini> Patreon has its different with Kickstarter, it is more for monthly payment stream. But is is also imporntant to check the terms and conditions of it.
  12:08:37 <MrFawlty> is anybody able to help out on that? Which would make it easier to get RPM flying?
  12:09:32 <MrFawlty> My programming times are way to long ago... :-(
  12:09:38 <HerwigB> Well, what would be needed?
  12:09:44 <martini> MrFawlty. I also made some article about RPM packaging on the EDM/2. I really hope to get more samples in the future. http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Creating_your_first_RPM_Package_on_ArcaOS
  12:10:13 <MrFawlty> Martini: thx! Nice to see
  12:10:52 <_diver> Martini you need to use our buildbot. This makes a lot steps a lot easier
  12:11:17 <martini> About RPM: For the moment I need more samples of WPS object creations. I also need information and samples on where to locate files on the FHS structure.
  12:11:31 <_diver> This bot doesn't add any bww requirements or such
  12:11:48 <martini> Let me know more about buildbot and and point me to some documentation to check it out.
  12:12:11 <roderick> Szarik out of interest may I ask your background is with OS/2 ? Just curious, since you seem to know more about this ?
  12:12:15 <_diver> Wps objects? Our bww resources package makes that really easy 😂
  12:12:56 <MrFawlty> wow, good information sharing appearing
  12:13:12 <_diver> The bot is on our github. In rpmbuild-bot repo
  12:13:17 <MrFawlty> Roderick: thanks for these IRC sessions!
  12:13:55 <roderick> I still need to work on Warpstock Europe this weekend...
  12:13:57 <roderick> ...
  12:14:07 <roderick> Way behind on schedule...
  12:14:08 <Szarik> We used OS2 on our workstations until 20 years ago doing development mostly in RPG and HLASM.
  12:14:12 <_diver> And the bww resources package has a good explanation of the macros within the macro itself
  12:14:20 <martini> On the WPS Objects with RPM I used the wps_object macro that you provided. But I need more samples on how to set more of the objects parameters.
  12:14:29 <martini> I need more of this samples: http://www.edm2.com/index.php/Wps-object_Samples
  12:14:57 <_diver> We don't use them direct anymore
  12:15:19 <martini> ok. I see. So I need to know more about the new stuff :)
  12:15:26 <_diver> Look at our bww resources macros. A lot document there
  12:15:41 <MrFawlty> learning is by doing and making mistakes ;-) That will never change...
  12:16:03 <_diver> @szarik RPG is nice 😂
  12:16:32 <Szarik> Now I have only some machines left for maintenance programming tasks
  12:17:46 <_diver> I still do RPG. Even I use the rpgle
  12:18:06 <_diver> In my other job. Not on os2
  12:18:18 <MrFawlty> :-)
  12:18:33 <MrFawlty> any other topics?
  12:21:03 <_diver> I hope we could answer everything and ppl got a insight what we do and what we need
  12:21:20 * MrFawlty did
  12:21:27 <Thomas__> What means ppl?
  12:21:34 <roderick> people
  12:22:01 <CrazyBonz> need to buy vowels
  12:22:14 <MrFawlty> lol
  12:22:40 <MrFawlty> ok, thanks folks. I go for food ;-) CU next time!
  12:22:45 > Can someone remind me where the IRC log for the FIRST Arca Noae Speakup can be found? Someone said they were going to put it up on line.
  12:22:59 <roderick> I still need to work on that...
  12:23:03 <HerwigB> To get you an idea of what we also address is the use of more than 4 GB with GCC apps
  12:23:06 <roderick> They are in mailbox...
  12:23:09 <CrazyBonz> I never did get rpm/yum working
  12:23:42 <_diver> Ken what did you wrong?
  12:24:01 > Roderick, I am working on getting the second AN Speakup on line. Can't find the first one.
  12:24:10 <roderick> What do you mean Herwig ?
  12:24:23 <_diver> About logs. I saw some links at os2world from eugene iirc
  12:25:09 <CrazyBonz> _diver, unknown, just gives me 2 screens full of errors and staements
  12:25:37 <StevenL> Did you submit a ticket?
  12:25:43 <CrazyBonz> from after installing the yum bootstrap package
  12:26:11 <HerwigB> Dmitry has a concept to change the loader in order to provide an API for memory allocation over 4 GB.
  12:26:26 <HerwigB> for applications.
  12:26:37 <Thomas__> You can very simplify rpm/yum by using anpm.
  12:26:40 <CrazyBonz> i dont want to clutter this session with troubleshooting tho
  12:27:15 <roderick> Kind of an Expand Memory like in DOS, but not with the pain of setting it up...
  12:27:25 <_diver> Any more questions?
  12:27:31 <HerwigB> exactly.
  12:28:24 <roderick> I guess nobody has any questions. I guess the question from BWW back is please keep providing sponsorship either directly to BWW or via VOICE to continue funding.
  12:29:16 <Thomas__> Thank you very much for this information exchange.
  12:29:41 <roderick> And please note www.warpstock.eu.
  12:29:54 <roderick> Warpstock Europe will be held on the 26 and 27th of May in Berlin this year.
  12:30:13 <roderick> Access this year is slightly more expensive. But it includes lunch and unlimited tea and coffee.
  12:30:28 <roderick> I still need to work on the webpage.
  12:30:33 <HerwigB> unlimited coffee sound great :-)
  12:30:40 <roderick> Thanks Herwig and Silvan for dropping in.
  12:30:52 <roderick> Are there any questions from the people visiting ?
  12:31:01 <roderick> Going once
  12:31:24 <roderick> Going twice
  12:31:28 <roderick> closed
  12:31:33 <Szarik> Is it true that you can drink beer on the street in Berlin?
  12:31:45 <roderick> Sorry Blonde you just came in to late.
  12:31:50 <roderick> The speakup just ended.
  12:32:06 <roderick> But we will publish the logs on www.os2voice.org.
  12:32:32 <Blonde> Well, it wasn't meant for my time zone. I hope there is a record for the web site
  12:33:19 > Blonde, the second Araca Noae speakup and this Speakup should be on the website in a day or so.
  12:33:33 <OS4user> I don't have a question, I just want to say big thanks for BWW for their invaluable work on Firefox and other stuff
  12:33:42 <CrazyBonz> thank you for coming to this speakup all bww guys
  12:35:31 <HerwigB> thankk you all and see you next time! bye!
  12:35:38 <TerryW> Thanks and goodby.
  12:36:57 <martini> thanks
  12:38:33 <micrex22> darn, I missed the chat
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  12:40:58 <_diver> Cu all
  12:41:38 <StevenL> Bye all
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  12:53:31 *** TeLLie has left #os2voice :"http://quassel-irc.org - Chat comfortably. Anywhere."
  12:54:58 <Alfredo> The BBW speakup is over, isn't it?
  12:55:08 > yes
  12:56:14 <Alfredo> Thank you, I was hoping I got the starting time wrong :(
  12:56:45 <Alfredo> 7pm instead of 17
  12:57:07 > I'm hoping to get the log posted to the VOICE website in a few hours.
  12:57:26 *** Log Terminated.